Rifle Scopes Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

[jbailey]

I have researched this and found a lot of grainy pictures and scattered advice... so I'm posting the Q here directly-

Any thoughts on the usability of the Gen2 XR on a 3-15x FFP scope (namely the Premier LT)? The reticle's lines are fine (0.04mrad) and I'm abit concerned how readable they are at 8x-10x or so...

Background-
scope will go on a light precision rig, for match use out to 600yds, with a bit of duty out to 1000+. It is a 6.5x47L and the Premier LT's 12mrad gets me well out to 1200+yds. Most of my shooting will be done at 10x to 15x. I have good eyes and typically like fine reticles.

thanks in advance for any thoughts!

-Jammer

 

[turbo54]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

I've got a Heritage in 3-15 with the Gen2 Mildot, and a Heritage in 5-25 with the Gen2 XR.

My opinion is the Gen2 XR is pretty much unuseable until ~10x, and really comes into it's own at ~15x. If you try, you can begin actually reading it ~8x, but it really is just too small to make any use of.

The Gen2 Mildot is much bigger, and IMHO, much better suited to a 3-15 scope. While it is still pretty small at low power, it becomes rather useable ~5x, and isn't too big at 15x, though for me, it is starting to get pretty fat at 15x.

Bottom line (IMHO): The Gen2XR is crap for a 3-15 optic.

 

[Scot_E]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

This may be helpful.

http://www.opticstalk.com/premier-light-tactical-first-impressions_topic30387.html

Scot E.

 

[Aries64]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have researched this and found a lot of grainy pictures and scattered advice... so I'm posting the Q here directly-

Any thoughts on the usability of the Gen2 XR on a 3-15x FFP scope (namely the Premier LT)? The reticle's lines are fine (0.04mrad) and I'm abit concerned how readable they are at 8x-10x or so...

Background-
scope will go on a light precision rig, for match use out to 600yds, with a bit of duty out to 1000+. It is a 6.5x47L and the Premier LT's 12mrad gets me well out to 1200+yds. Most of my shooting will be done at 10x to 15x. I have good eyes and typically like fine reticles.

thanks in advance for any thoughts!

-Jammer </div></div>
I grew up using fine reticles to shoot at (and hit) small targets at distance, so the reticle subtensions of the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier 3-15X50 Gen 2 XR</span></span> wouldn't bother me - even with my 48 year-old eyes. Given this and since you're probably younger than me and have better uncorrected vision I think you'll be fine with the Gen 2 XR in a 3-15X[50]. <span style="font-weight: bold">It should be noted / another thing to consider is that the subtensions of the Premier 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR's are different from the subtensions of the Premier 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR. The 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR is more fine.</span>

In a nutshell, the Premier 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR's reticle subtends .025 MIL (.075") at 100 yards at 15X, and only .125" at 25X, - which is still less than the Premier 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR's reticle at 15X (.04 MIL, or .144"). However, I'm not sure if this has always been the case, as I seem to recall previous (older) PDFs' of the Premier 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR reticle having subtensions identical to the Premier 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR and I lost my old data when the hard drive that housed those old PDFs' died. For comparison, below are PDFs' of the Gen 2 XR reticle in the Premier Reticles 3-15X[50] and the Premier Reticles 5-25X[56].

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR reticle PDF courtesy of Premier reticles:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR reticle PDF courtesy of Premier reticles:</span></span>

Now, if you were looking at a PMII 4-16X with the Gen 2 XR it would be a different story, because <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">for me</span></span> (as well as others) - the Gen 2 XR in the PMIIs' is just way too fine at low magnification. (In case you're unaware, once upon a time the [Premier Reticles patented] Gen 2 XR and Gen 2 XL reticles were options in PMII scopes). At that time the Gen 2 XR was available in the PMII 5-25X[56] and the PMII 4-16X. The trick here is that the subtensions for the Gen 2 XR reticle in the PMII 5-25X[56] and the PMII 4-16X are identical. I found the combination of the lower magnification range of the PMII 4-16X and the Gen 2 XR's very fine subtensions a non-starter. While I can see the reticle and read the numbers down to 10X, it's a PITA.

I consider the "sweet spot" of the Gen 2 XR <span style="font-style: italic">in a PMII and the Premier 5-25X[56] between 12X-25X, and 10 MILs' of holdover is still within your FOV at 20X.</span> I know a guy who used to have a PMII 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR and a PMII 4-16X Gen 2 XR, and I had the opportunity to shoot with both of those optics at the time (he sold both years ago). I own three PMII 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR CCWs' now.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII Gen 2 XR reticle PDF courtesy of Premier reticles:</span></span>

Hope this helps.


Keith

 

[Aries64]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a Heritage in 3-15 with the Gen2 Mildot, and a Heritage in 5-25 with the Gen2 XR.</div></div>
I think the scope magnification and reticle choices for the two scopes mentioned above are just about ideal, as I've seen and played with both of those configurations at the range, but I haven't used a 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR alongside a 3-15X[50] Gen 2 Mildot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My opinion is the Gen2 XR is pretty much unuseable until ~10x, and really comes into it's own at ~15x. If you try, you can begin actually reading it ~8x, but it really is just too small to make any use of.</div></div>
I have personal experience with the PMII 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR and Premier Heritage 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR scopes, and I concur with you here (although 8X really makes my eyes work hard to read the numbers. 10X is much easier, and we both know the magnification sweet spot starts a little higher.

Have you used a Premier 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR at all? I've played with the Heritage 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR and a Heritage 3-15X[50] Gen 2 Mildot before and preferred the Gen 2 Mildot for the 3-15X[50], but that was due to the use of the rifle that the 3-15X[50] would be mounted-on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Gen2 Mildot is much bigger, and IMHO, much better suited to a 3-15 scope. While it is still pretty small at low power, it becomes rather useable ~5x, and isn't too big at 15x, though for me, it is starting to get pretty fat at 15x.</div></div>
I tend to agree with you here, as the subtension of the Gen 2 Mildot makes it easier to see (and less likely to be lost) at low magnification, in the brush, and/or low light than the 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54[/i</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottom line (IMHO): The Gen2XR is crap for a 3-15 optic. </div></div>
Given that the subtensions of the 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR are heavier than the 5-25X[56] Gen 2 XR (as I explained in my reply to <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">JamesBailey</span></span> [the OP]), I think that the above statement may be a bit harsh. Still, there's no arguing that even the heavier Gen 2 XR is a little hard to see at 5X, let alone at 3X.


Keith

 

[bward]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

I had one in a 3-15 and I didn't like it at all. Way too fine to use below 10x unless you have quite a bit of time to sit there and figure out what you are looking at.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

Thanks guys - good bit of info above. I will review later at work. Thumbs up!

 

[jbailey]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

Interesting, Aries64 - I didn't realize that the 3-15x and the 5-25x had different line widths. 0.04mils on the 3-15x, 0.144in@100yds. My current scope is 0.125in@100yd, and I can see that fine at 15x and even 10x. I guess I start to loss it under 10x. So the conclusion sounds like the Xmas tree details are usable in the 12-15x range, less usable at 10-12x, and not usable under 10x. I can probably still see the cross hairs under 10x, just don't expect to see the 2mil windage hold at 6mil elevation hold...

Again, thanks for all these observations. If anyone has any additional thoughts, would appreciate hearing them.

 

[Aries64]

Re: Gen 2 XR on a 3-15x?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, Aries64 - I didn't realize that the 3-15x and the 5-25x had different line widths. 0.04mils on the 3-15x, 0.144in@100yds. My current scope is 0.125in@100yd, and I can see that fine at 15x and even 10x. I guess I start to loss it under 10x.</div></div>
If the line width of your current scope is .125" (1/8") at 15X and you can still see the reticle fine at 10X you should have no problem seeing the (thicker) lines of the 3-15X[50] Gen 2 XR at the same powers in moderate or better light. At lower magnifications and in low light or against dark backgrounds the story may be different.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the conclusion sounds like the Xmas tree details are usable in the 12-15x range, less usable at 10-12x, and not usable under 10x. I can probably still see the cross hairs under 10x, just don't expect to see the 2mil windage hold at 6mil elevation hold...</div></div>
That's probably about right - in good light I can see and use the dots and the hashes and <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> read the numbers at 10X in my PMII 5-25X[56], (whose reticle is more fine than the Premier 3-15X[50]). Below 10X the numbers are very difficult for me to read - even in good light (getting old sucks).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, thanks for all these observations. If anyone has any additional thoughts, would appreciate hearing them.

</div></div>
No problem, glad I could help.


Keith