Getting a ffl to sell guns from personal collection since law change

[Jcaplinger199]

Just wanted to see what advice you guys have on the topic. I have a few guns I would like to sell. Typically I would sell them on here or gunbroker since you never get near the actual value at a gun store. However I’m scared to do this now without an ffl since the new gun control act where they changed the wording “Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in paragraph (21)(C), by striking ``with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit'' and inserting ``to
predominantly earn a profit'';”

Just wondered you guys take on this. If it worth getting a ffl to sell one or two guns every once and awhile out of my personal collection.?

 

[nikerret]

A lot probably depends where you live, but I’ve never worried about it. My income comes from documented sources that aren’t selling firearms.

 

[LawnMM]

Have you asked your husband for his opinion yet? Talk it over, save your marriage.

 

[JLP83]

This makes me giggle. We are about to see things go completely underground px which contradicts everything the badged up fed fags say they want to stop.

Also I shouldn't leave out that taxation is theft and fuck the IRS.

 

[TCreedmoor]

List them on ArmsList or on this site. Once you settle on a price with a buyer, you just ship them to their FFL via ShipMyGun.com. If you're lucky enough to find a local Texas buyer for a face-to-face transaction, there is no paperwork to fill out other than something to keep in your files as proof of the sale.

Those language changes are not in effect yet. And the House bill likely won't get passed through the Senate.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

 

[Franko]

List them on ArmsList or on this site. Once you settle on a price with a buyer, you just ship them to their FFL via ShipMyGun.com. If you're lucky enough to find a local Texas buyer for a face-to-face transaction, there is no paperwork to fill out other than something to keep in your files as proof of the sale.

Those language changes are not in effect yet. And the House bill likely won't get passed through the Senate.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

This is the way. You get a good price for your guns and you get protection because you used a FFL. Do make sure to keep copies of your paperwork showing who the gun was sent to and verification that they were in the FFL EZ check database when you sent the gun.

 

[hafejd30]

Buy more guns
Buy more ammo
Don’t sell either
Problem solved

 

[Pre64]

Sell them to me cheap at a loss, no profit no problem.

 

[Jcaplinger199]

List them on ArmsList or on this site. Once you settle on a price with a buyer, you just ship them to their FFL via ShipMyGun.com. If you're lucky enough to find a local Texas buyer for a face-to-face transaction, there is no paperwork to fill out other than something to keep in your files as proof of the sale.

Those language changes are not in effect yet. And the House bill likely won't get passed through the Senate.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

Ya that would be super convenient

 

[MK20]

This is the way. You get a good price for your guns and you get protection because you used a FFL. Do make sure to keep copies of your paperwork showing who the gun was sent to and verification that they were in the FFL EZ check database when you sent the gun.

An FFL offers you no additional legal protection whatsoever over a private sale as long you have no reason to believe that the person you are selling to is a "prohibited posessor", druggie, felon, abuser, under 18, etc.

As long as you follow the law and have no reason to believe you are breaking the law by selling to a "prohibited posessor" you are fine.

People think a 4473 is a magic document that does wonders. All it does is register those guns with the federal government.

 

[candyx]

You just have to worry that the person you sold it to doesn't work in a book suppository building, advice from Private Snowball.

 

[cas6969]

"to predominantly earn a profit''

I've sold... good lord, I dunno, 40-50-60 guns? More? I think I've made a profit on about 4 or 5 of them. So I've got a long way to go and a lot of catching up to do before I reach "predominantly".

 

[hollowoutadime]

You don't need one to sell off your personal collection.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

"As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and
sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,
if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal
collection, you do not need to be licensed"

 

[TCreedmoor]

An FFL offers you no additional legal protection whatsoever over a private sale as long you have no reason to believe that the person you are selling to is a "prohibited posessor", druggie, felon, abuser, under 18, etc.

As long as you follow the law and have no reason to believe you are breaking the law by selling to a "prohibited posessor" you are fine.

People think a 4473 is a magic document that does wonders. All it does is register those guns with the federal government.

I have to disagree on the legal protection aspect. When the firearm is transferred through an FFL, the responsibility of determining buyer's ability to legally possess a firearm is shifted directly onto the Federal Government via the NICS background check. Otherwise your defense is basically, "Well the buyer seemed okay to me. He didn't give off any bad vibes." In a criminal court you might be okay, but in a civil suit or in the court of public opinion, the FFL's involvement makes you pretty much bulletproof.

In my state a private seller is required to run a background check through the State Police website. No details about the firearm are entered, just info on the buyer. Once that comes back clean, you print the form, write in the firearm's information, have the buyer sign it and keep the document in your records for 10 years. A copy is never sent anywhere, except perhaps a copy given to the buyer as part of their receipt for the firearm.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Not worth it. If you live in a state that allows face to face sales then you are following state law. You would only need to transfer through an FFL to cross state lines.

If you want to buy direct then get an FFL. I know a couple guys that still have them to buy at lower prices or out of state.

 

[hlee]

Selling at cost with a receipt to prove it, by definition, is not selling for a profit…

 

[TCreedmoor]

Not worth it. If you live in a state that allows face to face sales then you are following state law. You would only need to transfer through an FFL to cross state lines.

If you want to buy direct then get an FFL. I know a couple guys that still have them to buy at lower prices or out of state.

Just to clarify and keep people out of trouble.

In general, you can legally sell a long gun to an out-of-state person face to face in your state.
However if it is a handgun, any out-of-state buyer MUST go through an FFL in their state -- even if you are able to meet them face to face regardless of what state the two of you meet in.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

 

[JLP83]

Just to clarify and keep people out of trouble.

In general, you can legally sell a long gun to an out-of-state person face to face in your state.
However if it is a handgun, any out-of-state buyer MUST go through an FFL in their state -- even if you are able to meet them face to face regardless of what state the two of you meet in.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

Why do you keep telling us you aren't a glowie? These are grown men and they will decide what you are.

 

[TCreedmoor]

Why do you keep telling us you aren't a glowie? These are grown men and they will decide what you are.

As a general matter, only a lawyer may give actual legal advice, whereas any non-lawyer may recite legal information.
Furthermore, it is generally illegal for a non-lawyer or unlicensed attorney to offer legal advice.

 

[acudaowner]

sell them ( the family ) off to a slave trader then keep the guns and get more ammo , kids and women draw a premium ...

 

[valsport]

The buyer is responsible for their conformance with the law, not you seller. For all I care I'd sell a gun in a vending machine if that's where the buyers were. The transfer is what must comply with the law; enter transfer dealers. Give me all your money and the gun is waiting on you to pick up from the dealer. Can't have the gun for X reason? You and your dealer start working out a deal to sell it because the deal is already done on the seller's end. If buyer bought something their state doesn't allow, the real consequence is the gun stays at shipping dealer and they lose money and gun until they figure out who they have to pay to make their dumbass mistake go away.

Nuance related to transfer-shipping. Want zero liability? Pay your FFL $20, hand him your gun and go get a beer.

Not sleeping well at night because of the thought of someone finding a crooked dealer, doing the transfer out of state with a phony ID, insert any other number of fears, all of those factors could be mitigated with some internet sleuthing on your part and getting into the buyer's nitty gritty, but now you're acting on behalf of the gov't ie law enforcement and I'll be damned if I'm doing their job.

There are many, many state laws that govern how a firearm can be legally transferred between private parties. You can choose to get educated on them and follow them or use dealer services. I'm in Texas and do FTF all the time without dealers but I know my state laws.

 

[Darayavaus]

book suppository building

is that the place where they shove books up your ass?

 

[brian1]

Just wanted to see what advice you guys have on the topic. I have a few guns I would like to sell. Typically I would sell them on here or gunbroker since you never get near the actual value at a gun store. However I’m scared to do this now without an ffl since the new gun control act where they changed the wording “Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in paragraph (21)(C), by striking ``with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit'' and inserting ``to
predominantly earn a profit'';”

Just wondered you guys take on this. If it worth getting a ffl to sell one or two guns every once and awhile out of my personal collection.?

You do NOT need an FFL for selling a handful of guns, or even for selling a large collection of guns.
Key words above are PRINCIPAL and PREDOMINANTLY.
Now, if you keep buying more and then selling them, especially fairly soon after getting them, you MAY need an FFL.
In my experience, ATF will only go after you if you're doing it fairly egregiously or if they are busting you for something else, too.
There are some guys on GunBroker with HUNDREDS of feedbacks who are selling guns and it says right in their ad that they are not a FFL.
Those guys are really pushing it (and apparently getting away with it). You are not, based on your description of both quantity and especially intent.

 

[LawnMM]

is that the place where they shove books up your ass?

Those are liberal colleges

 

[valsport]

Go'vment - Sir did you sell these firearms with the principal motive of making a profit?

Seller - No

Problem solved

 

[MtnCreek]

Just to clarify and keep people out of trouble.

In general, you can legally sell a long gun to an out-of-state person face to face in your state.
However if it is a handgun, any out-of-state buyer MUST go through an FFL in their state -- even if you are able to meet them face to face regardless of what state the two of you meet in.

For the record, I am not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice.

If you're not a licensed dealer, it would be illegal for you to transfer any firearm to a person that you know is not a resident of your state.

 

[E. Bryant]

In general, you can legally sell a long gun to an out-of-state person face to face in your state.

Oh Christ, this is basically every idiot and undercover ATF agent on Armslist right here.

Please read the following carefully:

To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of their state, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under federal law. There may be state laws that regulate intrastate firearm...

www.atf.gov

You generally cannot transfer a firearm to an out-of-state resident - not even long guns. You can transfer it to an out-of-state FFL, or you can find an in-state FFL to transfer a long gun to an out-of-state resident (assuming there are no state laws to the contrary).

 

[E. Bryant]

Just wanted to see what advice you guys have on the topic. I have a few guns I would like to sell. Typically I would sell them on here or gunbroker since you never get near the actual value at a gun store. However I’m scared to do this now without an ffl since the new gun control act where they changed the wording “Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in paragraph (21)(C), by striking ``with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit'' and inserting ``to
predominantly earn a profit'';”

Just wondered you guys take on this. If it worth getting a ffl to sell one or two guns every once and awhile out of my personal collection.?

Are you selling your "few" guns to "predominately earn a profit"? If so, apply for an FFL and let's see what your IOI says.

I can assure everyone that I've never sold guns from my personal collection to earn a profit, and my wife will attest to this claim.

 

[Jcaplinger199]

Are you selling your "few" guns to "predominately earn a profit"? If so, apply for an FFL and let's see what your IOI says.

I can assure everyone that I've never sold guns from my personal collection to earn a profit, and my wife will attest to this claim.

I guess it depends how this government defines profit. Will I make a profit in the common sense definition being make more then I have invested in said gun on the ones I want to sell - absolutely not. I will lose money just not as must as if I sold them to a dealer or traded them with a dealer. However others have said this could be interpreted as any profit… ie if I sold one for $1 I just made $1 profit. These are crazy times and all. If it truly was “profit” in the true sense then I would sell them on gunbroker and pay my ffl $50 which is what they charge to transfer and ship a long gun to the buyers ffl. $50 to ship isn’t bad. I just paid $40 to ship a scope I sold on here

 

[hlee]

I guess it depends how this government defines profit. Will I make a profit in the common sense definition being make more then I have invested in said gun on the ones I want to sell - absolutely not. I will lose money just not as must as if I sold them to a dealer or traded them with a dealer. However others have said this could be interpreted as any profit… ie if I sold one for $1 I just made $1 profit. These are crazy times and all. If it truly was “profit” in the true sense then I would sell them on gunbroker and pay my ffl $50 which is what they charge to transfer and ship a long gun to the buyers ffl. $50 to ship isn’t bad. I just paid $40 to ship a scope I sold on here

No. Revenue is different than profit. Even the government knows this.

 

[hollowoutadime]

From the ATF document:

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
"Bob inherits a collection of firearms from his grandfather. He would rather have cash than the firearms, so he posts them all online for sale. He makes no purchases, but over the course of the next year he sells all of the firearms he inherited in a series of different transactions. Bob does not need a license because he is liquidating a personal collection"

So no FFL required.
Now if you bought 100K of silver at $9 and sold at $19, there would be a long term cap gain.

Read the document, you are not in the business of buying/selling to make a profit. You are liquidating your personal collection.

That said, look into the guidance on handgun, long gun, an interstate sales.

 

[LawnMM]

 

[hlee]

View attachment 7952143

 

[norcalAF]

Buy more guns
Buy more ammo
Don’t sell either
Problem solved

This is the way

 

[TurboTrout]

Gun broker has always been a default forever registry

Id do face to face if you’re worried about it