Getting started - Some questions

[GrahamVT]

I've been lurking around for a few months, trying to learn and absorb as much as I can. I'm new to long range & competitive shooting. I became hooked after getting to shoot my 556, 243, 308 & 38-55 out to 800 meters last year. The Marlin in 38-55 w/ a peep sight was the most fun by far, but to my knowledge we don't have any lever/bpcr long range matches around the north east.

I then learned about the NRL22 and NRL/PRS matches. This winter the wife and I attended one NRL22 match, and have since began putting together a 10/22, I also picked up a Vortex Diamondback Tac 6-24 as a cheaper way to get started.

I now want to get a rifle setup for the local prs matches we have. I have a small budget so am trying to get started as affordably as possible. I figure, the less I can spend on the rifle setup the more I can spend on ammo & actual trigger time, which is what I need the most.

I talked with a few people at the NRL22 match and it sounded like most people around here are running 6.5 creedmoors. Vermont can be very windy. Aside from ease of finding ammo and lack of reloading, I am wondering if that may be why people are choosing 6.5 over 6mm's.

Anyway, I originally was looking at the Tikka CTR's in 6.5, but then I saw the Howa 1500 6mm creedmoor barreled actions from Brownells. I've always been impressed with Howa's in the gun stores, but never owned one. They are on sale for $500, and would be very nice in a KRG Bravo. Its more expensive than the other Howa options, but its also closer to the higher end in terms of barrel length, & chambering. Then later once the barrel is done, I could potentially have it re-barreled to 308 for practice etc.

After reading around (also listening to Precision Rifle Media podcasts) I began thinking that having a 6, or 6.5 creedmoor for the first rifle may not be the best idea, in terms of initial startup cost (rifle, brass, dies etc), and barrel life.

I would be better off just using a 308 to get started (have basic rcbs dies & some match 168gr bullets). I found some Howa 1500 308's w/ 20" #6 barrels going for pretty cheap on gunbroker and have been trying to snag one for around $400, but the gun store's supply is getting lower and the auctions lately have been going up closer to $500. This would eventually need another stock but it would be good enough as is to at least get started.

So for the past couple days, I've been looking at these Howa 1500 mini actions in 6.5 grendel, on sale at Brownells for $360. I could put one of those in a boyds at one thmb stock for $200 and have a decent setup for under $600, but would have to buy dies, brass, bullets etc. I could sell the 308 stuff to help offset that cost. From what I've read the 6.5 grendel is a formidable little cartridge and with the right loads it can be pretty close to 308 ballistics. But most of what I've read about the 6.5 grendel pertains to hunting and/or ar platforms. I haven't found much about the Howa 1500 mini 6.5 grendels, or any 6.5 grendel bolt actions for that matter. But with its lower recoil, high BC bullets and overall lower cost to reload it seems like it would be decent for the prs game, and then be a trainer later on.

I guess what I'm asking is if you had to start over again, while keeping cost down as much as possible, what would you do? I figured i'd try to get one of the 308's and then if not grab the 6.5 grendel. Now i'm not so sure.

I know there are other options out there I am not aware of, and i'm getting dangerously close to waaaay over thinking this! So I figured this would be a good time to reach out for some guidance. Thanks!!!!

 

[Sheldon N]

I guess what I'm asking is if you had to start over again, while keeping cost down as much as possible, what would you do?

My 0.02 as to what I would do in your situation, with 20/20 hindsight of having shot a lot of matches and having gone through several calibers/match rifles. Underlying assumptions I'm making are that budget is primary importance, you do intend to shoot a moderate amount practicing in addition to attending matches, you intend to reload, and you intend to stick with the sport more than a year.

1) I'd base my build on an action that I wouldn't feel I needed to change out down the road. Something like Bighorn Origin comes to mind. Build around a Howa and you end up with limited upgrade options, plus lots of Howa accessories no one will want to buy when you change something.

2) KRG Bravo stock, some sort of decent trigger (hunt used for a good deal), find a used brake, hunt for "ugly" stuff with cheap prices.

3) I would shoot a lower cost prefit shouldered barrel or savage/remage barrel. Keystone, Criterion, X-Caliber, etc.

4) My first choice for caliber would probably be a 27-28" barrel with a straight 6BR. My wildcard second choice would be a 26" 223, shooting heavier bullets, and competing in Tactical class.

Yes, I'm recommending something that's more expensive than what you are talking about. But on the whole, it's about as cheap as you can get for a "destination" gun where you could continue to shoot that over your entire PRS competition endeavors. The Howa will be less expensive now, but will cost you more when you sell and rebuy something else.

As far as caliber options, I chose 6BR because it's about the cheapest you can go for a gun that will be competitive in the "open" division. Running the math on true all-in cost per shot including barrel life and and the 6BR is very close to 308, within a couple cents per round. Barrel life is decent, recoil is low, and accuracy is excellent. On a pure cost basis 223 will be cheaper, more like $0.40/rd all in vs $0.60/rd all-in. However it can be tough to shoot in the wind and you'd probably end up switching.

Final thoughts are that the gun, while a big investment now, is somewhat of a smaller part of the overall picture. If you built the above gun making some smart purchases on used components, and then shot the sport for 3 years, you could get perhaps 90% of your money back when you resold (with the exception of barrel wear). The true "cost" of the sport comes in match fees, ammo, barrels, travel, accessories.

 

[b6graham]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/536324356858869/

there's a match next weekend. it's full but you could always come RO/spot and fingerbang everyones stuff. i'll be shooting an origin and i'd bet theres a tikka and bravo there too

there are two routes i would start with. both 6.5 creed because of factory ammo, ease of shooting, and barrel life

tikka ctr (maybe bravo stock)
origin, bravo/onyx, keystone button barrel

seekins rings, ares etr scope, atlas bipod

 

[GrahamVT]

Great stuff, thank you! I just saw the howa 6.5 grendel has no 10 round mag, so that rules that one out.

It does sound like the 6.5 creedmoor would be best.

The only problem with going higher end like the origiin action is its going to take me much longer to get it setup, opposed to getting somethibg cheap like a howa to get trigger time in a week, not 6 months. If there was something cheaper that could double as a trainer, or hunting rifle later on I wouldnt have a need to sell it off. That was the attraction of the 6.5 grendel.

Any adivce on the tikka varmint models? Looks like you can change out the bottom metal to acept acis mags. And with the lower price, i could get started sooner than later.

Thanks again!!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My thinking tends to be out of step with the grand majority here. But my thinking also tends to be slanted in favor of the beginner with a budget, as opposed to the purist with higher expectations and a bankroll to match. Some expectations are realistic, and others assume facts which may not be in actual evidence.

My assumptions are based on skill levels and reasonable expectations about goals and reasonable budget considerations for the beginners in question. First we crawl, then we walk, and after that, we get to run. Jump that line at peril.

Beginners nearly always overestimate a few things. If their skills are worthy of a technologically advanced equipment set, they're not beginners, and if they're not, then they are. Honestly, the custom approach is something best left on the shelf until skills catch up with expectations and goals. It wastes capabilities and cash that are not really usable at the beginner stage.

They also tend to overestimate their judgement about choosing custom components, as well as their own ability to combine those components effectively. Not for now, this step comes later. Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do.

IMHO many, maybe most, factory varmint rifles are adequate to the needs of the beginner, can outshoot their owners now and for some time to come, and are inexpensive enough that the expected higher level of wear and tear due to inexperience does not bludgeon a sophisticated rifle unduly. This concept is borne out in the "pearls before swine" adage.

You can pick and choose brands, some are better than others, and while I have standardized on Savage brand, there are others, and some of them are better. I use them because I'm more familiar with them, and despite their particular quirks, they work more than adequately for me. Different brands, different particular quirks; we get to choose. Remember, the custom option comes (should come) at a later stage than we're talking about.

You'll hear the phrase "Buy once, cry once...". This is an argument about going straight for the top of the heap, cost be damned. The assumption is that the user will grow to accommodate the broader advantage, and there is some truth in it. But there is also truth in this about where the beginner's money is best spent up front, and whether the bigger expenditure denies the buyer the ability to obtain items with a higher priority than the one(s) being considered. Priorities are range time, economical practice, reliable equipment, and freedom from quirks which skew the path of the learning process. Simplicity comes first, specialization is for insects. The bells and whistles stage is best saved for a time when it's employment can be properly understood and administered.

Optics can become a rabbit hole that gives great satisfaction at a great price, but can requires saving up cash at a time when what it does mostly is postpone the learning process.

Learn the true meaning and value of the word "adequate". Stain said "Perfect is the enemy of good". There is a simple truth here that eludes many on this site. Yes, one can buy one's way into the perfect implements, but those perfect implements are not going to be truly useful until the basic skills are at or close to perfect, and the 'beginner wear factor' is an overhead that can be especially costly. Put another way, one cannot buy their way into the X-Ring. Start basic, grow from there. A basic rifle is never a waste of money, and it can be very useful when helping others to climb on board this train.

I use the 223/5.56 chambering for the greater bulk of my shooting. It is as effective a training chambering as most others, is more affordable than most, and is also a very good one for which to learn precision accuracy handloading. Good factory ammo is very available for it.

I'm not going to go into specifics, many others will do so here, and better than I can. I'm mainly just trying to establish a decent frame for the picture others will paint with better eloquence.

Greg

PS, I'm just now getting into the 6.5 Grendel addiction. Howa's not bad, and I have some interest in the Ruger American Rifle 6.5 Grendel Predator. It accepts AR type magazines, and there are such made in 5, 10, and 25rd versions. Not certain yet whether the compatibility is a certainty, I still have to buy the Predator. There's also a Grendel Upper for AR-15 Platforms. Mine arrived last week. Hornady has a compatible load; American Eagle, too. I have both on hand to test.