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Getting Started with Annealing

fusiachi

PFC Snuffy
Full Member
Minuteman
May 12, 2008
200
38
South of Expected
I've decided to add case annealing to my reloading routine & have a few questions. I picked up the Hornady kit for starters, and I had done enough reading on the subject to believe that the results I would get by using the behavior of the ~450 degree Tempilaq per the instructions included in the kit would be inadequate. Attached are images of samples of separate runs of 10 cases I did with slight variations in technique. The cases were identical Federal brass from my discards with 6 firings on them. The constants throughout the 3 trials were the size of the flame, the speed of rotation, and the position of the case in the flame with the case mouth held just inside the tip of the inner flame. The cases were quenched in water. I've constructed a stand for the torch that puts the flame level with the case mouth with the flat base of the cordless drill I'm using resting on the same surface as the stand.

The one on the left was marked just below the shoulder as per the instructions included with the kit. It took roughly 5 seconds for the marker to melt. Inspection of the inner surface of the neck reveals no discoloration. The second sample was marked at a distance below the shoulder roughly equal to the length of the neck. It took roughly 10 seconds to activate the marker. Inspection of the inner neck shows an area of discoloration right below the case mouth, extending no more than .125" or so on any of the cases. The third sample was marked halfway down the body of the case, and held in the flame for 15 seconds. This did not activate the Tempilaq. The portion of the case in direct contact with the flame began glowing a very dull red immediately prior to the time expiring. Inspection of the inner neck area showed discoloration similar to that in Sample 2 extending the full length of the neck.

It's my belief that Sample 3 represents the results that I'm looking for, but I'd like the opinion of some more experienced shooters before I shift into production mode. Thanks in advance for sharing your wisdom.

3_cases.jpg


inner_neck.jpg
 
Re: Getting Started with Annealing

One of the best ways post annealing is to press the mouth of the case against a piece of wood with moderate pressure. If the mouth deforms you over did it.

Josh
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

fusiachi,

#2 looks good to me. About the same color and depth as what I get with my Ken Light machine.

Clean the inside of the case neck with 4-0 steel wool on a brush, and you should be good to go.

HTH,
DocB
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Here is an anealling machine I use and how I determine the right temp on the brass. This is using the Bench-Source machine.

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Re: More than you wanted to know...

I have that same machine, dar. Toddacguy is coming over Sunday and we're gonna video it through his FLUKE thermal imager. Should be pretty cool.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Maybe I am totally wrong, But those look like they are getting WAY TOO HOT! I thought you are looking for a just a dull red if that in a darkend room.

I also looked at other similar machines and the time is roughly 5 sec in flame. That looks like 10 sec.

On some of those they are bright red..equals way over annealed.

Flame suite on if I am wrong!


 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

I just stand the cases in a pan of water, the depth about half way up the case, apply the heat of a propane torch about 5 seconds, and knock the case over in the water with the torch.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

was looking at getting this hornady kit but will probably end up getting a machine instead just to remove variation from case to case.

happy with the results?
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

I've spent the last week building one like those offered for sale and it works good.

I'm just having trouble knowing how much to heat them up. I bought some temp sticks and some tempilaq which are useless, unless I got a bad bottle. In the dark after 9 or 10 seconds the necks do not glow red but there is a color change on the brass when its finished. This is 6.5 - 284 neck turned brass.

I'll try to post some pics later.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Thanks for the responses, keep 'em coming. I'd be interested in learning a little more about the discoloration effect. It seems more pronounced on my new LC .223 & Lapua .308 brass than it does on my 15 second samples.

With regard to ease of deformation, as expected the necks are progressively easier to flatten as exposure to the heat increases. The force required to deform the cases an inch from the base seems constant with a pair of narrow billed Vise Grips so I'm confident that I've not set myself up for case head failure. Is there anything other than neck tension that seems odd in the seating process that I should be concerned with before I move on to loading and shooting these over the chrono? I FL size with a .338 bushing.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Heres the one I built. I'm thinkkng about building some to sell now that I got the bugs worked out. This is a rough proto-type. Fit and finish is not what a production run would be.

20usnyr.jpg
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

I anneal the lapua brass a little longer than Rem brass. On the back side of the machine. The brass dump the brass into water. The brass looks good. Rem brass I do at 5 seconds. I think the temp on the brass is the important thing. Until you get the right temp then put the brass into water.

Thickness of the brass will have an effect on the time. Rem brass is thinner than Lapua.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

I recently did a bunch of federal brass and half of them crushed at the neck when I tried to size them. Is federal brass thinner than normal?
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Reading the post with the 450F Tempstick, and the video showing around 400-450 on IR, I thought you were really looking for 650F for a short time, verses 400-450f woulf need to be held at the temp for several minutes or longer.

Or am I wrong?
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jet_lagged</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading the post with the 450F Tempstick, and the video showing around 400-450 on IR, I thought you were really looking for 650F for a short time, verses 400-450f woulf need to be held at the temp for several minutes or longer.

Or am I wrong? </div></div>

This is the way I've understood it too. 650 to 750. yes? No?
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

Some kits (like the one from Hornady) come with 450F tempilaq, but if you read the directions it says to apply the paint approximately 1/4" below the shoulder - the idea being that by the time the paint down there (out of the direct influence of the flame BTW) changes, the case mouth should be at the correct temperature. Other people try the same sort of idea, i.e. getting the paint out of the direct flame to prevent incorrect readings, by putting it on the inside of the case neck but with a higher temp paint.

If you look up a materials spec sheet on cartridge brass (available multiple places on the 'Net) the annealing temp is listed as between 800-1400F, depending on time exposure, etc. Below that... you get stress relief, which isn't a bad thing at all, but not necessarily annealing. Probably better to fudge on the low side and not wreck your brass but if you can control the timing, a slightly higher temp (than 650F) is probably what you want - or at least what I go for.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have that same machine, dar. Toddacguy is coming over Sunday and we're gonna video it through his FLUKE thermal imager. Should be pretty cool. </div></div>

Now *THAT* would be pretty sweet... I used to use FLIR/AGEMA IR imagers at work years back (checking utility transmission/distribution equipment) and that would an excellent tool to use... if I had the spare $50K laying around for the equipment
wink.gif
 
Re: Getting Started with Annealing

Well I bought a Fluke Infrared today to get my brass right. 8 to 9 seconds in the two flames reaches 750 to 850 f. In the dark the necks do not glow red at all.

eta - I don't let the brass fall into a bucket of water to cool it. I noticed others did'nt either. I don't think the base of the brass gets hot enough to have to do that.
 
Re: Getting Started with Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmorris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I too built an automatic annealer, from what I have learned if you are glowing the cases you are going too far.

Details on the one I built are in this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1171240&page=1

DSC01810.jpg
</div></div>

Nice! Case feeder too!

eta - not that it matters but page 3 ownage. (as per ARFCOM)
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have that same machine, dar. Toddacguy is coming over Sunday and we're gonna video it through his FLUKE thermal imager. Should be pretty cool. </div></div>

Now *THAT* would be pretty sweet... I used to use FLIR/AGEMA IR imagers at work years back (checking utility transmission/distribution equipment) and that would an excellent tool to use... if I had the spare $50K laying around for the equipment
wink.gif
</div></div>

we are working on it.... lol long story short: cross-communication has delayed it a bit but we will have it sooner than never.

The FLUKE thermals have gotten way cheaper. His work thermal is a pretty sweet write-off that doubles as a feral hog finder at extended distance
wink.gif
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

yeah we have it now, just need to put it together and upload it
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sailhertoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
eta - not that it matters but page 3 ownage. (as per ARFCOM)</div></div>

What does this mean?
Page 3?
Neither this thread or JMorris's thread have a page three.
Are you talking about a thread over on ARFCOM?
If so, it is meaningless without a link.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

He He. On another web site (ARFCOM) if you are the first post on a new page they say you own the page. Its just a stupid joke kind of thing. On my computer we are on page 3 of this thread.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CavSoldier3ACR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you anneal the brass before resizing. Is this correct? </div></div>

Yes, I do.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The FLUKE thermals have gotten way cheaper. His work thermal is a pretty sweet write-off that doubles as a feral hog finder at extended distance
wink.gif
</div></div>

Cool! Ours got used occasionally 'after hours' checking employee homes for thermal leaks (insulation).

I presume the software allows some manipulation of the images, and spot temperature checks i.e. move the cursor around to get exact temps of individual locations, besides the color gradients?
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

exactly, you'll see the cursor on the screen and the temps it reads at that location. I should have it up tonight.
 
Re: More than you wanted to know...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">exactly, you'll see the cursor on the screen and the temps it reads at that location. I should have it up tonight. </div></div>

Promisses, promisses........