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Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *second range day*

Hateca

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Aug 12, 2004
    1,568
    89
    Henderson NV
    I received one of the Gibbs 1903A4 replicas just more out of curiosity then anything. I have numerous original Garands, carbines, and 1903’s but not a 03A4 because like everyone else the cost is way too much to obtain.

    The rifle comes in a hard case with a leather sling and rifle dust cover.

    This particular rifle was built on a Remington 1903A3 receiver. No attempt was made to remark the receiver by Gibbs in an attempt to try and fool someone.

    The bolt appears new and is a marked Remington. The re-forging of the bolt handle is good but nothing like an original A4.

    All the other metal parts are original military that have been either re-blued, re-parked or appear original un-issued. The worst condition part was the butt plate. It had been re-parked but showed years of service.

    I have not taken it fully apart but most of the markings on the parts that I can see indicate Remington manufacture. The stock is a walnut stained Beachwood. Very nice but not walnut.

    The barrel is a new four grove made for Gibbs (unknown from where) that is marked with Gibbs logo near the dovetails for the front sight. Headspace was right on. I checked the chamber and barrel with a bore scope and found no surprises.

    The scope base is a Redfield type base that is parked and is marked with Gibbs information. Base and rings could have been made by Redfield for Gibbs, I have no idea.

    Scope is a copy and is also marked with the Gibbs information. This particular scope is thin wire throughout. I have seen some with a Duplex style reticle, so I’m not sure which one is common or if this is a crap shoot from Gibbs. Clarity of the scope for what it is seems to be fairly good, don’t expect Nightforce clarity from this little thing. The true test will be when I shoot it this weekend.

    When the rifle was received the scope was just attached and no torque had been applied to the screws. I pulled the scope off and found the base wasn’t torqued to the receiver either. I pulled the base off just to check the drill job and found this to be very well done. Screw holes are 8-40. A couple of problems I did find were the scope base screws and no shims for the base. The rear screw was too short and would not hold torque. Since this is a reproduction I went ahead and replaced the base screws with correct length using torx head screws.

    On original A4 it was common to shim the front of the base to make up the difference in the height of the front receiver ring and the rear sight dovetail. Without shimming the front of the base you will get base flex when you torque down the front screw. Shims need to be added to this base to make it fit correctly. Again this common with A4’s and shims should have been included with the Gibbs rifle.

    I will post some pics later and follow up with a range report this weekend.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Most of the "new" parts and the optics come from China. (Even the Chinese would have a hard time making a worse scope than a Weaver 330!)
    Should be good for reenactors and save some collector grade 03A3s from being modified.
    If it does 3 MOA that will be about like a "real" 03A4, which was no tack driver anyway.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the "new" parts and the optics come from China. (Even the Chinese would have a hard time making a worse scope than a Weaver 330!)
    Should be good for reenactors and save some collector grade 03A3s from being modified.
    If it does 3 MOA that will be about like a "real" 03A4, which was no tack driver anyway. </div></div>

    Well the only thing new is the scope, scope base, barrel and stock. All the rest of the parts are proof marked military and most of them are marked Remington. From my inspection of the barrel it looks good but the proof will be in the shooting. I will shoot some mil surplus 30.06 ammo and some re-loads to see just how well it will do. If it hold 2" to 3" that's fine with me. If it does better then that's even better. With this low power scope and it's questionable quality at that I don't expect miracles. The plan is to replace this scope with a modern one with a little more power anyway so it should be fun to see.

    It's a fun gun, I'm not willing to spend $5000 to $14,000 for a real one and then be afraid to shoot it.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Yes, very cool to see someone do a writeup on this. Can't wait for a range report with pics, of course!
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Gibbs is located about two hours east of me here in WV. I have been to their place in the past and I also got to talk to them at SHOT earlier this year about their 03A4 replicas. The rifle was to be manufactured of USGI parts (excluding the new barrels), but I can't speak to the origin of the scope/mount/rings. I certainly wouldn't expect high quality glass, etc. for the total price of the rifle with optics coming in at roughly 1/5 of the cheapest original (or "put together") 03A4 you could find. Overall, the rifle showed some promise and certainly fills a gap in the market for people wanting an 03A4-type rifle without the outlandish price tag.

    Like HateCA said...the proof will be in the shooting. I'm looking forward to a thorough range report.

    Also, I will shoot Val and the folks at Gibbs an e-mail and see if I can't get some more detail on the optics, etc.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Randy, thanks for the info on this. One of my shooting pards thinks he may have a line on an original A4 right now, he's sopposed to get together with the owner in the next few days to take a look. We,re both very excited about it, probably a long shot but any chance of him obtaining an original gets our blood going. Hopefully the price wont be what some are bringing.
    shocked.gif
    Interesting about the shim on the base, would you say most of the originals have been shimed? The innaciracy is pretty surprising. I knew they were'nt tack drivers but 2 to 3 moa for a dedicated sniper weapon? Not good. Anyway, give us a range report when you can, thanks.

    okie
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the "new" parts and the optics come from China. (Even the Chinese would have a hard time making a worse scope than a Weaver 330!)
    Should be good for reenactors and save some collector grade 03A3s from being modified.
    If it does 3 MOA that will be about like a "real" 03A4, which was no tack driver anyway. </div></div>

    Here we go again Mr. Humble! The 1903a4 will shoot considerably better than 3+ moa. They shoot especially good with Weaver K4-60B's........
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    On a side note, a Gibbs scope and base is selling on an auction site for over $200 by itself. It will be intersting to see how they shoot. I was told the receivers are mostly recovered drill rifles receivers which means they are original GI.

    I agree that the base should have shims, I have seen originals with shims in front and a few that also had shims in the back. The shims would be easy to make but it would be better if they were done at the factory.

    Thanks for the detailed report.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    I read on another post that the Chinese manufactured the scopes with the windage and elevation turrets reversed, factory said they were all produced that way! It's all in the details
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    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Lets not beat a dead horse. The 03A3 and all its variants were an effort to get something in the troops hands as M-1s could not be produced fast enough. They use "wartime steel", stamped parts and were rather crude. In a battle rifle 3 MOA is acceptable, look at a #4 Enfield, in every way superior to the A303 as a battle rifle, and typically does 3 MOA with issue ammo. Sticking a crappy (Weaver 330) scope on a restamped 03A3 (they were not selected for accuracy) does not a sniper rifle make. I don't know how many real Springfields/Rock Islands or 03A3s you own/owned, but I have have/had a lot. I have never owned an 03A3 that with WW II issued M2 ball would do 10 shots in less than 3 MOA. By contrast, a WW I USMC sniper (WRA scope) would do 1.5 MOA with FA 172 ball (what they used). The 03A3 is not a bad rifle, it was better than a spear, but any student of USMC history in the Pacific war can tell you how quickly the Marines were happy to turn in their 03A3s when M-1s became available.
    It's a piece of history, but like the Sherman tank and Wildcat fighter it was what we had at the time to "make do" and we did, albeit at the cost of a lot of lives.
    BTW no 03A4 ever went to war with a K4 in any books I own.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XARMOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read on another post that the Chinese manufactured the scopes with the windage and elevation turrets reversed, factory said they were all produced that way! It's all in the details
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    </div></div>

    Some of the original scopes that I have seen had the windage on the left side instead of having the windage on the right side as in today’s manufactured scopes. Not sure if Gibbs did this on purpose to make it easier for shooters today or if it was an oversight not doing good enough research on the older scopes.

    On another note:

    I'm not going to argue over the accuracy of a 03A3, that's not the point of this post. I have had, and do have, plenty of 03A3 that will hold an inch or just over an inch with military surplus ball ammo using iron sights with the original barrel still attached. I also have some that wouldn't come close to this.

    I’m sure not every 03A3 was a good shooter, but then again not every new modern day factory rifle is either, so who cares? If we want to really argue the point one could also make the case it was the crap ammo being produced at the time causing accuracy issues and not the rifle, some things never change. If you don't think so wonder over to the re-loading forum and check it out.

    Again this is not a post to argue the accuracy virtues of the O3A4 or its copy, so let’s not make it one. I think there's a post already covering that.

    I would be surprised if with a good scope this or an original A4 couldn't hold at least one inch. I don't expect much from this scope copy but we shall see.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Looks good, thanks for the eval so far! I agree, it will be a fun rifle to shoot, and you won't have to worry about shooting it too much like an original!
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Looking forward to range report. Got to shoot at the Eastern Games this year at Butner, NC, and witnessed some of the revival of interest in this type of arm.

    AG
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 03A3 is not a bad rifle, it was better than a spear, but any student of USMC history in the Pacific war can tell you how quickly the Marines were happy to turn in their 03A3s when M-1s became available.</div></div>

    Well, all I can say is, you certainly are not a student of USMC history. The Marines did <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> have 03-A3's at all. They had 1903's until they too were issued M1's.

    Don
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    ignore humble, he's just being his usually helpful self. He reads books and therefore thinks he knows everything.

    Randy, the gibbs looks like a nicely done clone. You can get an alaskan on ebay for about $300 if you want a better but period correct scope. I use a weaver k2.5 on mine, it "looks" correct and is cheaper than the alaskans. Nothing from the time period will compare to quality today, not even the unertls that humdinger loves so much. There is a leupold clone of the alaskan out there too, but they are not common to see for sale.

    weaver 4x k4-60b's were used in Vietnam, wether or not it was military issued or just "acquisitioned", and there are pics and bringbacks to verify it, regardless of what not-so-humble says. If you want more power, this is an accurate way to go.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Thanks for posting that HATECA. I like it. "WV" stamp and all.

    I once sold a .300WM to an old Marine that I knew named Fred Tees. One day he came by my office and told me a story about how when he was the air officer for Chesty Puller, he pulled an 03 from a dead Chinaman, and then ended up taking some shots at the enemy trying to cross this long bridge in Korea. At first, I kind of thought, "that's a pretty good story Fred." Not long afterward I was telling this to another guy named Peter Senich and he opened up one of his books and showed me Fred's picture, firing an 03A1 at Communist troops across a long bridge in Korea, about 1950, of course.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Its cool that they got the rings right also. Most copies have the squared of top, the originals were rounded like this one. I have heard they are pretty good shooters and this would make them worth looking at. Very nice pictures BTW, with 54 days at 100+ degrees in Austin I would be tempted to see how well that rifle passed a swim test!!! Thanks for sharing.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Yup Humble can read. I wasn't there in WW II with the Marines like you experts were.(giggle)

    Try reading:
    http://www.ww2gyrene.org/weapons_M1903A3_rifle.htm
    or watch the military channel, a bit more, where you can see Marines carrying 03A3s in the later Pacific campaigns.

    Finally were they not carried by the Marines who got them all?
    The Army got the M-1 first and there were nowhere near enough 1903 Springfields left to equip the nearly 500,000 Marines in WW II.

    Here's another quote:
    "Though it was reduced to a secondary role, the M1903 continued to be produced during World War II by Remington Arms and Smith-Corona Typewriter. Many of these were designated M1903A3 as Remington requested several design changes to improve performance and simplify the manufacturing process. With the conclusion of World War II, most M1903s were retired from service, with only the M1903A4 sniper rifle being retained. Many of these were replaced during the Korean War, however the US Marine Corps continued to use some until the early days of the Vietnam War."

    Except for a small run (+-400K) of 1903s produced on the old RIA machines by Remington in 1941-3, all "1903s" made in WW II were 03A3/4s. Serial #s spanned 3.3 to 5.8 million...you do the math.

    Reading is a useful skill. Much better source of data that "tits over the back fence". Did I mention I have collected 03s for 50 years and am a book publisher and seller? Betch my library on 03s is a lot bigger than yours.

    I will persist IMO that the 03A3 is an interesting piece of history, but compared to a real interwar 03' is a piece of crap.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Through the glass shot!! Through the glass shot!! (Side by side with something modern, like a USO or S&B, would be even better for comparison...)
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Through the glass shot!! Through the glass shot!! (Side by side with something modern, like a USO or S&B, would be even better for comparison...) </div></div>

    I'll try but when I say it's like looking through a toilet paper tube that's exactly what I mean. If you get your eye anywhere other then in the center of the exit pupil you are going to have a hard time.

    Not sure how the camera will work with this small scope. After the range tomorrow I will see what I can do. (I have builds to test) Problem with through the scope pics is they almost always look worse then they are, and really, do you think there isn't going to be a difference between a USO or NSX compared to this little thing? Trust me there is and it's not even fair to compare them either.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Well the first range day has come and gone for the Gibbs A4 clone. It was a pretty good day for what I had to work with. I only had Greek 30-06 to try today, my buddy was sick and couldn’t bring out his assortment of ammo for us to try, maybe next week, and I will definitely be using another scope by then.

    First I want to get back to the scope. I mentioned before that the original scopes had the windage on the left hand side of the scope, however on this reproduction scope the windage appeared to be on the right side due to the turret markings and such.

    Well I found out after looking at the scope more carefully, and checking the tracking of the scope, that the windage was working in the opposite direction then the turrets would indicate. It appears that when the scope was assembled the windage and elevation turrets were installed in reverse. You are able to screw the windage and elevation turrets all the way out of the scope. This made it simple and I just reversed them and re-mounted the scope with the windage on the left as it should be compared to the original scope and rifle.

    The clarity of the scope is ok, no USO or NSX but I compare it to a Bushnell or Super Sniper. I tried to take pics but this was just not going to work out with this small scope.

    The tracking of the scope is poor. Adjusting windage you will get some movement in the elevation and vise-versa. The scope did appear to hold zero however with a 2.5 power scope it’s hard to tell, and with the tracking issue I wouldn’t bet on it.

    The reticle on the scope is a fine wire if you can call it that. At 100 yards the reticle will cover the six inch center zeroing bull on my target, very hard to aim at the same spot. For shooting silhouette steel it worked great, but you only need to hit the steel right?

    To get around this a little bit I used the corner of the paper to bracket the reticle so I could at least hold in the same general area.

    The rifle shoots like any other O3A3. The steel butt plate starts to wear on you after awhile. My previous injuries don't do well with the continued pounding of the rifle and I needed several breaks, plus I had other rifles to test.

    I was hoping to have different manufactures of ammo but like I said my buddy was sick. Anyway with the Greek stuff I did have I got the rifle zeroed and proceeded to fire several 5 shot groups. The average was 2.509”. The 5th shot would always open it up, but again right now I’m going to attribute this to the scope. If I discarded the “flyer” the group size was 2.0” or under. I have no doubt with different military surplus, match, or reloads the rifle is capable of 1.0” groups just like some of my other O3A3’s

    The rifle is very well done for what it is. The barreled action is all military parts. The Stock is a good reproduction, but it would have been even better if it was walnut. The scope mount and rings are also a well done reproduction. The Achilles heal of the entire thing is going to be the scope. But like my buddy said, Gibbs was building the rifle and the scope was only attached to make it look good. Funny thing is I have seen the mount and scope going for $200 or more on the auction sites.

    I will be hooking up with my buddy in the coming weeks to hit the range again. This time with a better scope with a little more power and a different selection of ammo to see what the rifle is really capable of.

    I will keep you posted.

    target1.jpg

     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    Thanks, looks to be a good shooter. Nicely done report.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval.

    not too shabby for a basic battle rifle. thanks for the report. Better optics should help.

    Also, if you want some padding when shooting, consider the slip-over rubber grenadier pad. The cheapos available at the discount places with the flaming bomb on it. I use one on my rifle and it fits well. Not the softest around, but it does help alot over the steel plate.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    As far as accuracy goes I guess I got lucky with my O3A3. I can shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100. With good handloads, I have shot 10 shots, as fast as I could shoot, with a group of a little over 2 inches at a 100. I hit a coyote in west Tx at a little over 300 and she was trotting across a sendero. I would love to shoot 500 or 600 to see how I could do. It has been in heavy rain, incredible dusty country, and has never given me any problems.
    I would love to have an O3A4!
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    They run about $1K ($999.00), I have not seen any used ones for sale yet.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    some guy had one used on AR15.COM.......still wanted 900 and it sold right away.

    cool rifles....I wish someone would give me one. Might even trade for one, but can't shell out the 1k for it right now
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    I have been wanting one of those for some time.

    Thanks for the write up. Well done, as usual.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    Went to the range again today and met up with my friend. It was smoking hot today and I wasn’t about to stay long.

    I changed the scope out to an original steel Weaver K4 with fine crosshair. Zeroed the scope and went back to trying the Greek surplus to start with. The largest groups would hover right around one inch or slightly larger, nothing larger then 1.5.

    Next was some reloads put together from military match data. The largest groups would be under and inch and the smallest were under a half. Didn’t have a lot of it so I shot three round groups.

    (Match ammo. 175 grn. SMK, 46.2 IMR4895, Win primer, Win brass, OAL 3.290)

    The rifle will shoot no question. The reproduction scope in a word sucks. The K4 even though it’s only four power is a world of difference and it looks good on the weapon as well. The Greek ammo is top notch for what it is. I didn’t chrono it but just the feel of the ammo at recoil tells me it’s much hotter then the match ammo.

    Just like my other O3A3’s this rifle will shoot great groups with the right load. Anyone that says they can’t doesn’t shoot enough. I would say poor accuracy during war time could and most like was due to the ammo, and not the weapon, or a poorly maintained weapon.

    For what it is and not having to alter an original 03A3 in my opinion the Gibbs rifle is a good shooting weapon worth the $900 paid. The scope on the other hand is a paper weight.

    Gibbs12.jpg


    Gibbs13.jpg


    Typical Greek ammo groups.
    target3.jpg


    Smallest Match reload, three shots.
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    Largest match reload, three shots.
    target2.jpg

     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    Those are some pretty darn good groups...Good shooting! I really like the looks and the idea behind the rifle, one someone could actually shoot without having lost their ass or having a heart attack. Good report!
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    That is a thing of beauty.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    Well that is definitely a bit better accuracy than I was expecting.

    Thanks for taking the time to post all of this Randy. Looks like I will have to see about picking one of these up as I have been itching for a 1903 for a while now and the ones CMP are selling aren't safe for shooting.
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    Hey that rifle looks way better and more importantly shoots way better with the Weaver K4. It is obvious why they put these on the rifles in Vietnam! Nice shooting BTW....
     
    Re: Gibbs 1903A4 reproduction eval *Limited range day*

    What kind of scope rings did you use? Dovetail? You just used the same mount and swapped the rings out? Never seen that done... looks great!