Sidearms & Scatterguns GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

[rsplante]

I was at the pistol metal plate range a month or so ago and this guy on the next lane had an unusual looking gun. I asked him about it and he offered to let me shoot it. It was quite accurate and not at all bad to shoot. This guy "claimed" that the last time he was in Afghanistan, he got to spend some time with some Delta guys. (rolling eyes), I know what you're thinking, those Delta guys sure get around. And then he claimed that that was what they were shooting, so he built one. Well, whether they were or weren't, it was a nice shooting gun. Basically, it was a Glock 21 rebarreled with a KKM .45 Super barrel (which is fully supported) and has a huge compensator at the end which blends in with the Glock slide. http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/product.php?productid=38&cat=17&page=1
I had never heard of .45 Super prior to this and was intrigued. I was planning on a 1911 purchase this year, but this had 1.5x the muzzle energy and muzzle velocity. I am preparing to go on some hog hunts and need a backup to my rifle. I have heard that .45 ACP is marginally effective on a wild hog, and this thing shot a lot nicer than a .44 Mag. which is what I have seen suggested for this role. Everyone I have talked to about this seems to be a 1911 snob and thinks that Glock cannot handle it. Without the compensator maybe, but I don't remember it kicking any worse than a 1911, and my G22 and G27 have been indestructable and very easy to maintain through 3-4000 rounds. As a Vol-Firefighter, I can get the LEO discount on the Glock 21 ($400 on most Glocks, I think I remember the G21 being just over $500) so I can put this thing together for under $800. It is supposed to be able to shoot .45 ACP and .45 ACP +P also. I know I will have to go to Starline for .45 Super brass, but it is still better for reloading than what I usually shoot (.40 S&W). I have been scared off from reloading .40 S&W by horror stories about the high pressures and thin cases (in a partially supported barrel to boot.)

 

[Badshot308]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

These guys have been doing the 45 Super conversions for a long time http://www.acecustom45s.com/gunsmith.htm I converted a S&W 4506 and 4586 to 45 Super years ago. I rarely shoot the Super loads anymore but I leave the Menck impact buffer recoil systems in, and the guns function just fine with regular loads. You wont find much published reloading data for the 45 Super due to the fact that it chambers in a regular 45ACP chamber but develops much greater pressure. Some old guns could go KABOOM! If you call Sierra for data, they flat out wont discuss the cartridge with you. Buffalo Bore actually recommended PowerPistol as a powder to use and gave me some starting loads. You are correct to use the 45 Super cases from Starline. They have a beefed up internal web to take the pressure. Try to duplicate those loads with an ACP case and you'll likely rupture a case, supported chamber or not.

 

[rsplante]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

Yeah, I believe acecustom45s has copyrighted the name .45 Super. I figure I will just have to work up a load like I do on my rifle. Have you asked Starline for load data? Seems like they have a vested interest.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

Nope, never contacted Starline. I ordered some 45 Super ammo from Buffalo Bore about 9 years ago and asked the guy about reloading the brass. Surprisingly he gave me some data using PowerPistol. That powder has turned out to be pretty good for regular 45 ACP loads as well, even with cast bullets. I wouldn't try to work up loads like you do with a centerfire rifle. You'll end damaging your handgun well before you run into any pressure signs. The hottest loads I ran were 10 grains PowerPistol behind a 230 Sierra HP in Starline brass with a Federal 150 primer. Was averaging 1179 fps in the 5" 4506 barrel. No pressure signs, but the pistol was unlocking so rapidly that I was getting wear on the barrel lugs where they lock into the slide. Too much more of that would not have been good.

 

[turbo54]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

For your intended purposes, I'd recommend you get a Glock 20 in 10mm instead. Good 10mm ammo, which is quite available from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap can hit over 800lb-ft of energy, while providing you with better sectional density and penetration than the .45.

Another option is to get a Glock 21, and then purchase an aftermarket 10mm barrel - which I have done - and it works great. In fact, I have a G30 and a G21, and 10mm Lone Wolf barrels for each. Both work perfect, with the exception of extraction. I've never had a FTE, but it doesn't toss the case consistently "back and to the right". Rather, it flings brass out all over the place... Left, right, over my head etc etc. The nice thing about the aftermarket 10mm barrels for Glock is FULL support. 9.5gr 800X will launch a 200gr Hornday XTP @ 1400fps in my pistol. I think I could go hotter, but I'm afraid to. This is with the stiffest Wolf recoil spring made for the G20, which is 23lb, I believe.

If you are hell-bent on 45 super, you'll really only need that same heavy recoil spring, and the recoil buffer made for the Glock. Starline makes 45 super brass only once in a blue moon, so if they don't have it in stock, you can make it yourself from 308 or 30-06 cases (or other children cases). The rifle brass has a very thick and heavy duty web, and is designed to handle the pressures you encounter with 45 super.

Search the Glock Talk forum (yes, there IS some good info there, believe it or not) for 45 super. There is a thread or two with useful information.

All that said - I again suggest you play the 10mm game, rather than 45 super. It sounds alluring, I know, but the 10mm makes a LOT more sense.

Hope this helps.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

You can just buy a full sized HK USP....and it will handle .45 Super out of the box. Even says so in the owners manual. Overall though, I feel like the 45 Super is a waste of time for minimal gain.

If you want to build a real improvement in power over the ACP look into a 460 Rowland conversion for 45ACP guns. Pretty cheap to do and offers a real step up in power vs 45 super. Buffaloe Bore loads for the 460 place it in the middle of the 44 magnum range for ftlbs of energy.

 

[MLC]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

460 Rowland is no joke.
I used to shoot the Triton 45 Super out of my USP and USP Tactical.
It's quite a bit more recoil than the 45.
The original 45 Super loaded by Triton was a 185 FMJ and printed on the box was a SEAL team logo and loaded for the H&K MK23.
That might have been hype but that's how it was marked in the 90's.
I still have some of the 165 Quick Shock, 230 JHP's and the 185 FMJ's somewhere in the man cave.

I'd follow the 10mm advice.
I run the Double Tap 200 and 180 grain 10mm ammo with the recommended Wolff springs in my Glock 20.
It will punch through some meat for sure.

 

[Saito]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ggmanning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can just buy a full sized HK USP....and it will handle .45 Super out of the box. Even says so in the owners manual. Overall though, I feel like the 45 Super is a waste of time for minimal gain.

If you want to build a real improvement in power over the ACP look into a 460 Rowland conversion for 45ACP guns. Pretty cheap to do and offers a real step up in power vs 45 super. Buffaloe Bore loads for the 460 place it in the middle of the 44 magnum range for ftlbs of energy. </div></div>

I've got a Clark 460 Rowland barrel for my 1911. As MLC says above, it's no joke. I bought 500rds of ammo when it was still relatively cheap. I like the fact that you can't chamber it in a regular .45 ACP chamber as it's case is 1/16th of an inch longer. It's a comped barrel and the recoil is still pretty stout. I haven't hand loaded for it yet though and you'd be better off getting a 10mm. So get a 10mm and forget about f'n around with anything else. I wasted my time with a .400 Corbon before I got the 460 Rowland. .45 ACP is good enough for me and my 1911 hasn't had the .400 Corbon barrel or the 460 Rowland bbl in it for a few years.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

I carry the 460 when I am in bear country here....that's black bears here. I will say I felt comfortable carrying it hiking all over Yellowstone this summer. It's heavy but I can empty the mag in a respectable group real fast....a lot faster than my 44mag revolver.

 

[rsplante]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For your intended purposes, I'd recommend you get a Glock 20 in 10mm instead. Good 10mm ammo, which is quite available from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap can hit over 800lb-ft of energy, while providing you with better sectional density and penetration than the .45.

</div></div>
I have considered the 10mm, but my understanding is that it would have a similar reloading issue as my concern with 40 S&W. If 10mm has the same wall thickness as 40 S&W (thin) and high pressure, it is running right on the edge performance wise. One slip-up in reloading, or a tiny bullet setback as the bullet feeds (due to the workhardened case losing it's ability to hold the bullet) and I have a Kaboom in my hands. I was under the impression that .45 ACP had pretty stout brass for the pressure. Even though .45 Super is a much stronger load, I was also under the impression that .45 Super brass was beefed up enough to easily handle it. I can tell that you like 10mm. What was it initially that caused you to drop .45 Super after shooting it?

 

[turbo54]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For your intended purposes, I'd recommend you get a Glock 20 in 10mm instead. Good 10mm ammo, which is quite available from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap can hit over 800lb-ft of energy, while providing you with better sectional density and penetration than the .45.

</div></div>
I have considered the 10mm, but my understanding is that it would have a similar reloading issue as my concern with 40 S&W. If 10mm has the same wall thickness as 40 S&W (thin) and high pressure, it is running right on the edge performance wise. One slip-up in reloading, or a tiny bullet setback as the bullet feeds (due to the workhardened case losing it's ability to hold the bullet) and I have a Kaboom in my hands. I was under the impression that .45 ACP had pretty stout brass for the pressure. Even though .45 Super is a much stronger load, I was also under the impression that .45 Super brass was beefed up enough to easily handle it. I can tell that you like 10mm. What was it initially that caused you to drop .45 Super after shooting it? </div></div>

Your worries about reloading 10mm are somewhat well-founded. However, that is why I mentioned aftermarket barrels. I can't speak for ALL aftermarket barrels, but my lone wolf (~$110) barrels in 10mm provide FULL support. The feedramp doesnt get into the chamber at all, and even the hottest loads don't create any bulge. Also, the Glock non-supported chambers thing is mainly the old ones. The new ones have considerably better support, although they do *not* have full support.

I played with 45 super only a little. Starline had a lengthy backorder on super brass and they are notorious for pushing back the "in stock" date. So, I made cases from Lake City 30-06 brass by cutting them down, trimming to length, sizing and reaming. Royal PITA for pistol brass that gets shucked out of the gun at 200mph and lost in the weeds. Energy wise, its on par with good 10mm ammo. It was kinda fun, but not "practical". Not to mention, my garage is an ammo factory with brass and miscellaneous ammo all over the place. It would be EASY to accidentally drop a super cartridge in a non-super gun. Plus, anything the super can do, the 10 can do better. Federal made some small primer 10 brass that has an ultra-thick web some folks get TRUE, full tilt 41 mag ballistics out of. We're talking a 220gr hard cast @ 1500+ fps. The sectional density of a .400" bullet that weighs 220gr is outstanding, and will penetrate far better than a 230 or even 250gr bullet in 45 caliber. All this means a better killer, which is ultimately what we're talking about here, right?

If you must play with an oddball to satisfy an impractical nerd-urge, by all means, do it! No sarcasm either. I did. I learned something from it so all was not lost! However, if you are trying to fill the auto-loading firebreather niche, that has huge velocity, energy, penetration and capacity, all while maintaining some actual practicality, look no further than a 10.

 

[kthomas]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

I think what you are looking for is a 10mm. .45 super sounds like a PITA to reload/find ammo for, and doesn't seem to offer anything the 10mm doesn't. In fact, the 10mm has more muzzle energy.

 

[rsplante]

Re: GLOCK 21 in .45 Super - Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We're talking a 220gr hard cast @ 1500+ fps. The sectional density of a .400" bullet that weighs 220gr is outstanding, and will penetrate far better than a 230 or even 250gr bullet in 45 caliber. All this means a better killer, which is ultimately what we're talking about here, right?

If you must play with an oddball to satisfy an impractical nerd-urge, by all means, do it! No sarcasm either. I did. I learned something from it so all was not lost! However, if you are trying to fill the auto-loading firebreather niche, that has huge velocity, energy, penetration and capacity, all while maintaining some actual practicality, look no further than a 10. </div></div>

No, I have not made up my mind on the .45 super yet. You are starting to convert me to 10mm. I guess one thing that had me going is how nicely the one I got to play with shot. I did not do a side by side comparison, but that .45 super with the compensator did not strike me as having any more kick than a 1911 or my G22. (i.e. same neighborhood) I'm not afraid of more kick (within reason, but I can't hit s**t with my friends Dirty Harry 44mag). I figure, what good is a hand cannon if I cannot hit a hog in the right place when it is in my face. How manageable is the 10mm on the second shot? I know that the FBI dropped it because half the agents couldn't handle it, and that was the genesis of the .40 S&W.