What is the minumum range you would engage someone with an AR15 if all you had was a .308 bolt action?
Wesley
Wesley
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
500 yards is as close as I would get.
500 yards is as close as I would get.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mark5pt56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's so many variables that could be factured into that question.
</div></div>
The Ar15 you're going against isn't a scoped rifle. It would be more of the entry types with an Eotech or aimpoint for an optic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mark5pt56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's so many variables that could be factured into that question.
</div></div>
The Ar15 you're going against isn't a scoped rifle. It would be more of the entry types with an Eotech or aimpoint for an optic.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
dumb fuckin question.....
dumb fuckin question.....
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Malaga2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dumb fuckin question..... </div></div>
then don't read and reply if you don't like the question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Malaga2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dumb fuckin question..... </div></div>
then don't read and reply if you don't like the question
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
the muzzle. if i have need to shoot someone then equipment and distance are not determining factors. i think what you seem to be asking(really badly) is at what range does the .308 bolt gun give you a notable advantage over the faster mouse gun. this would be highly debateable but id venture an opinion that at 800 yards a good .308 with a good driver should have an advantage if the enemy only has 5.56 platforms. however real world scenario probably negates this if the enemy has air or arty because at those ranges their gonna be callin fire missions on you.
the muzzle. if i have need to shoot someone then equipment and distance are not determining factors. i think what you seem to be asking(really badly) is at what range does the .308 bolt gun give you a notable advantage over the faster mouse gun. this would be highly debateable but id venture an opinion that at 800 yards a good .308 with a good driver should have an advantage if the enemy only has 5.56 platforms. however real world scenario probably negates this if the enemy has air or arty because at those ranges their gonna be callin fire missions on you.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
M16A4
Caliber.. ........................................... 5.56 mm
Weight.. ........................................... w/30 (loaded) round mag 8.79 Ibs
Length ............................................. 39-5/8 in
Mechanical Features:
Rifling ........................................... (RH 1/7 twist)
Detachable carrying handle w/integral accessory mounting rail
Firing Characteristics:
Muzzle Velocity ........................... 3100 fps
Chamber Pressure ...................... -52.000 psi
Cyclic Rate of Fire........................ 800 rpm (approx)
Fire Selector................................. SAFE-SEMI-BURST
Max Effective Rate of Fire:
Semi ............................................. 45 rpm
Burst ............................................. 90 rpm
Sustained rate of Fire ................... 12/15 rpm
Max Effective Range ....................... 550 meters (individual/point targets)
600 meters (area targets)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Max Range...................................... 3600 meters</span></div></div>
M16A4
Caliber.. ........................................... 5.56 mm
Weight.. ........................................... w/30 (loaded) round mag 8.79 Ibs
Length ............................................. 39-5/8 in
Mechanical Features:
Rifling ........................................... (RH 1/7 twist)
Detachable carrying handle w/integral accessory mounting rail
Firing Characteristics:
Muzzle Velocity ........................... 3100 fps
Chamber Pressure ...................... -52.000 psi
Cyclic Rate of Fire........................ 800 rpm (approx)
Fire Selector................................. SAFE-SEMI-BURST
Max Effective Rate of Fire:
Semi ............................................. 45 rpm
Burst ............................................. 90 rpm
Sustained rate of Fire ................... 12/15 rpm
Max Effective Range ....................... 550 meters (individual/point targets)
600 meters (area targets)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Max Range...................................... 3600 meters</span></div></div>
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the muzzle. if i have need to shoot someone then equipment and distance are not determining factors. i think what you seem to be asking(really badly) is at what range does the .308 bolt gun give you a notable advantage over the faster mouse gun. this would be highly debateable but id venture an opinion that at 800 yards a good .308 with a good driver should have an advantage if the enemy only has 5.56 platforms. however real world scenario probably negates this if the enemy has air or arty because at those ranges their gonna be callin fire missions on you. </div></div>
Thanx for clearing it up.... Looking back at it, I did word it messed up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the muzzle. if i have need to shoot someone then equipment and distance are not determining factors. i think what you seem to be asking(really badly) is at what range does the .308 bolt gun give you a notable advantage over the faster mouse gun. this would be highly debateable but id venture an opinion that at 800 yards a good .308 with a good driver should have an advantage if the enemy only has 5.56 platforms. however real world scenario probably negates this if the enemy has air or arty because at those ranges their gonna be callin fire missions on you. </div></div>
Thanx for clearing it up.... Looking back at it, I did word it messed up.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Is it just 1 guy with the AR15? If so, I'd be concealed and the distance wouldn't make any difference to me.
Is it just 1 guy with the AR15? If so, I'd be concealed and the distance wouldn't make any difference to me.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
An IED can make up for all the differences in maximum effective range and weapon superiority.
I'd do my damndest to kill you with whatever I've got in my hands however it is easiest for me.
Look at the ranges at where most U.S. Servicemen were killed by snipers in country (if available data is there). It is pretty damn close, although most of the time it is not with a bolt action weapon.
I second the dumb question, no offense.
An IED can make up for all the differences in maximum effective range and weapon superiority.
I'd do my damndest to kill you with whatever I've got in my hands however it is easiest for me.
Look at the ranges at where most U.S. Servicemen were killed by snipers in country (if available data is there). It is pretty damn close, although most of the time it is not with a bolt action weapon.
I second the dumb question, no offense.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mark5pt56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's so many variables that could be factured into that question.
</div></div>
The Ar15 you're going against isn't a scoped rifle. It would be more of the entry types with an Eotech or aimpoint for an optic. </div></div>
Are you both concealed? Are you both standing up and dueling like in the old days? Is it an M16 or an AR15? Etc., etc.
With a competition AR15-type rifle using heavy, high-BC bullets you're looking at similar engagement ranges between the two rifles, so if you're just looking at the rifles themselves being able to hit each other then there's no significant advantage one way or another. Bring in actual shooters connected to those rifles, and anything is possible. The best shooter with the most luck wins that fight.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mark5pt56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's so many variables that could be factured into that question.
</div></div>
The Ar15 you're going against isn't a scoped rifle. It would be more of the entry types with an Eotech or aimpoint for an optic. </div></div>
Are you both concealed? Are you both standing up and dueling like in the old days? Is it an M16 or an AR15? Etc., etc.
With a competition AR15-type rifle using heavy, high-BC bullets you're looking at similar engagement ranges between the two rifles, so if you're just looking at the rifles themselves being able to hit each other then there's no significant advantage one way or another. Bring in actual shooters connected to those rifles, and anything is possible. The best shooter with the most luck wins that fight.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Wow. Just think. If we didn't have the internet we would never get to hear questions that people would be to embarassed to ask in public.
Who is armed with what matters little. The skill with which it is used matters most.
Wow. Just think. If we didn't have the internet we would never get to hear questions that people would be to embarassed to ask in public.
Who is armed with what matters little. The skill with which it is used matters most.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
[/quote]Who is armed with what matters little. The skill with which it is used matters most. [/quote]
I agree totally with that statement. 1 man could be armed w/ a $4 grand rifle and the other man w/ a $500 and if the man w/ the $4 grand rifle doesn't know how to use it it's no better than the $500 rifle.
[/quote]Who is armed with what matters little. The skill with which it is used matters most. [/quote]
I agree totally with that statement. 1 man could be armed w/ a $4 grand rifle and the other man w/ a $500 and if the man w/ the $4 grand rifle doesn't know how to use it it's no better than the $500 rifle.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Um, so what's the point again?
You'd be more likely to be engaging an enemy with an AK than an AR anyway. (I hope) Are you asking how far away you would be "safe" and still engage him with the 7.62 bolt gun? If that's the case it's a moot point because, as a previous poster noted, they would just do a call for fire on you. 
Um, so what's the point again?
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Too many variables. This question does not make sense.
Too many variables. This question does not make sense.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
this question is about the most ridiculous question ive heard asked here in a little while, definitely the most retarded thing that i have heard today.
this question is about the most ridiculous question ive heard asked here in a little while, definitely the most retarded thing that i have heard today.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
this is dumb, ok i'll whack you at 1200 yards with my TRG before you can get to me..... is that what you want to hear? There are many gold clubs in a golf bag. Its that way for a reason.
this is dumb, ok i'll whack you at 1200 yards with my TRG before you can get to me..... is that what you want to hear? There are many gold clubs in a golf bag. Its that way for a reason.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is dumb, ok i'll whack you at 1200 yards with my TRG before you can get to me..... is that what you want to hear? There are many gold clubs in a golf bag. Its that way for a reason. </div></div>
WOW! Didn't think people would act like this. So maybe I could have worded it different. But hey, I'm not as uber cool and uber sniper as most of you guys. I'm pretty damn new to firearms myself and I do have alot of questions. But if people are going to jump in and get on a bandwagon because they want to be uber cool too.... then thats on you.
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span>
But as someone stated in an earlier post, there are alot of things that effect the outcome. I didn't realise that at first till someone PM'd me and explained to me what scenario what give the other a better hand.
So ya'll keep on comming at me, I can honestly give a rat's ass less. Because in the long run, you don't look all billy bad ass, you just look like a stupid dick.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is dumb, ok i'll whack you at 1200 yards with my TRG before you can get to me..... is that what you want to hear? There are many gold clubs in a golf bag. Its that way for a reason. </div></div>
WOW! Didn't think people would act like this. So maybe I could have worded it different. But hey, I'm not as uber cool and uber sniper as most of you guys. I'm pretty damn new to firearms myself and I do have alot of questions. But if people are going to jump in and get on a bandwagon because they want to be uber cool too.... then thats on you.
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span>
But as someone stated in an earlier post, there are alot of things that effect the outcome. I didn't realise that at first till someone PM'd me and explained to me what scenario what give the other a better hand.
So ya'll keep on comming at me, I can honestly give a rat's ass less. Because in the long run, you don't look all billy bad ass, you just look like a stupid dick.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bro- Just own your stupid question and be done with it. It'll earn you ALOT more respect than whatever the hell your last post is trying to accomplish. </div></div>
I owned my question when I asked/posted it. You didn't realise that when you made your post?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bro- Just own your stupid question and be done with it. It'll earn you ALOT more respect than whatever the hell your last post is trying to accomplish. </div></div>
I owned my question when I asked/posted it. You didn't realise that when you made your post?
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
A battle field is a broad ass area as is the weapon (s) needed to come out on top.
A battle field is a broad ass area as is the weapon (s) needed to come out on top.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Maybe if you'd worded the question more generally so that you were asking at what range the greater accuracy and retained energy of a 308 bolt action rifle theoretically begins to overcome the greater firepower of an AR15, the responses might have been more constructive. Then again, maybe not. If someone is lobbing rounds in your general direction, you probably do not have the luxury of comparing ballistics tables with your antagonist and then retreating to a "safe" distance.
Maybe if you'd worded the question more generally so that you were asking at what range the greater accuracy and retained energy of a 308 bolt action rifle theoretically begins to overcome the greater firepower of an AR15, the responses might have been more constructive. Then again, maybe not. If someone is lobbing rounds in your general direction, you probably do not have the luxury of comparing ballistics tables with your antagonist and then retreating to a "safe" distance.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Not sure a .308 bolt action is a "weapon of choice for combat" these days, in the same way an M4 is a weapon of choice for combat....
Now if the question was asked in a movie-trailer announcer voice, "In a future world, where man fights man on a life-or-death game show. With only one winner -- the last man standing...", it might be more interesting.
Bah, not really.
Not sure a .308 bolt action is a "weapon of choice for combat" these days, in the same way an M4 is a weapon of choice for combat....
Now if the question was asked in a movie-trailer announcer voice, "In a future world, where man fights man on a life-or-death game show. With only one winner -- the last man standing...", it might be more interesting.
Bah, not really.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
If the enemy can see you.........He can hit you.
If the enemy can see you.........He can hit you.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the minumum range you would engage someone with an AR15 if all you had was a .308 bolt action?
Wesley </div></div>
The muzzle minus a few inches if I was able to impale them on my barrel before pulling the trigger. There is no minimum range. In combat, that would be idiotic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the minumum range you would engage someone with an AR15 if all you had was a .308 bolt action?
Wesley </div></div>
The muzzle minus a few inches if I was able to impale them on my barrel before pulling the trigger. There is no minimum range. In combat, that would be idiotic.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
Since we're fighting on the internet I'd sneak up on the AR15 opponent and kill him with a blade all stealthy like as to not raise an alarm so I could ninja some more of his hapless comrads...
Since we're fighting on the internet I'd sneak up on the AR15 opponent and kill him with a blade all stealthy like as to not raise an alarm so I could ninja some more of his hapless comrads...
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
ill be honest. If our enemies had the 5.56 going against our issued body armor, i would want to be a good distance away, because under 600 m the 556 will blow straight through our armor plates. But as mentioned earlier there are alot of variables. Also the armory of the US mil (which i assume) you are talking about has a theoretical golf club bag, and in that bag there are a full set of clubs( m16,m4,mk12,mk11,m40a3,m24,m107,240g,saw,m9,m2,mk19,gau,javelin,
tow,smaw,at4) and i could go on for days. This question sounds like you are trying to rate the effective range/terminal ballistics of the two rounds to see what a stand off would be if you had the 308 to where you were fairly safe against the 556 round.
ill be honest. If our enemies had the 5.56 going against our issued body armor, i would want to be a good distance away, because under 600 m the 556 will blow straight through our armor plates. But as mentioned earlier there are alot of variables. Also the armory of the US mil (which i assume) you are talking about has a theoretical golf club bag, and in that bag there are a full set of clubs( m16,m4,mk12,mk11,m40a3,m24,m107,240g,saw,m9,m2,mk19,gau,javelin,
tow,smaw,at4) and i could go on for days. This question sounds like you are trying to rate the effective range/terminal ballistics of the two rounds to see what a stand off would be if you had the 308 to where you were fairly safe against the 556 round.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
If you are going after an M16/AR type with a bolt gun, then you are more than likely facing down at least a squad element. I would engage at max distance so I had teh chance to eliminate all opponents. First target would be the RTO(dude with the antenna, or Commo), second would be the one yelling or giving direction(Command), after that, the Crew Served would be taken down. This would allow one to engage and remove the left overs a lot easier. Since The bolt gun has the range at an easy 800M, I would engage at that distance. If I had the advantage of solid cover and they were in the open with no cover/concealment, then I would wait for them to hit at 700M to 600M and engage. I would not allow them to get within 300M. Then again, Zombies usually don't carry weapons do they?
If you are going after an M16/AR type with a bolt gun, then you are more than likely facing down at least a squad element. I would engage at max distance so I had teh chance to eliminate all opponents. First target would be the RTO(dude with the antenna, or Commo), second would be the one yelling or giving direction(Command), after that, the Crew Served would be taken down. This would allow one to engage and remove the left overs a lot easier. Since The bolt gun has the range at an easy 800M, I would engage at that distance. If I had the advantage of solid cover and they were in the open with no cover/concealment, then I would wait for them to hit at 700M to 600M and engage. I would not allow them to get within 300M. Then again, Zombies usually don't carry weapons do they?
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
This strikes me as the kind of question that gets asked by someone sitting in the Living Room, dressed in full tactical gear, playing one of those ridiculous computer combat games!... Back to the Mall with ya!
This strikes me as the kind of question that gets asked by someone sitting in the Living Room, dressed in full tactical gear, playing one of those ridiculous computer combat games!... Back to the Mall with ya!
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span>
</div></div>
Dude, there's no such thing as a 'more dominant' battlefield weapon. Each weapon has its advantages and disadvantages, and there are many, many different kinds of battlefields. There's no one weapon that's dominant across all battlefields. You're also talking different kinds of weapons entirely when comparing a fully automatic rifle with a bolt action long gun. On top of that, you're taking the rifle operator out of your equation, which makes it even more of confusing question. Your question has no answer because it's far too open-ended. If you want to learn about different weapons in general, the History Channel has a lot of specials on various battlefield rifles and how they were developed (and why).
Frankly you could have saved yourself a lot of grief had you prefaced your question by saying you're new to weapons, and that you don't know what you're talking about (the fact that you have 180 posts and don't know much about weapons is also confusing). That's just expected forum etiquette in general so people know how to treat you. Otherwise you're posting on a specialized forum, and people will assume you'll have at least some basic knowledge of weapons, which is why your question sounds stupid from that perspective. Your attitude isn't helping either, but meh, live and learn.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span>
</div></div>
Dude, there's no such thing as a 'more dominant' battlefield weapon. Each weapon has its advantages and disadvantages, and there are many, many different kinds of battlefields. There's no one weapon that's dominant across all battlefields. You're also talking different kinds of weapons entirely when comparing a fully automatic rifle with a bolt action long gun. On top of that, you're taking the rifle operator out of your equation, which makes it even more of confusing question. Your question has no answer because it's far too open-ended. If you want to learn about different weapons in general, the History Channel has a lot of specials on various battlefield rifles and how they were developed (and why).
Frankly you could have saved yourself a lot of grief had you prefaced your question by saying you're new to weapons, and that you don't know what you're talking about (the fact that you have 180 posts and don't know much about weapons is also confusing). That's just expected forum etiquette in general so people know how to treat you. Otherwise you're posting on a specialized forum, and people will assume you'll have at least some basic knowledge of weapons, which is why your question sounds stupid from that perspective. Your attitude isn't helping either, but meh, live and learn.
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span> </div></div>
Stop watching Deadliest Warrior.
308Panther
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">My question was more directed at which would be the more dominate weapon on the battlefield. It seems that both the AR15 and the 308 are the two weapons of choice for combat. I was just curious on the outcome if they went head to head.</span> </div></div>
Stop watching Deadliest Warrior.
308Panther
Re: Going against an AR15 with a bolt gun
wjwill,
Switchblade has it right. This would probably be the closest scenario you would deal with. But it's only one scenario. The point he made correctly is that he would apply tactics to better ensure success. You probably wouldn't come up against one, but many. How many determines tactics (and range) of how or if you would engage.
The factors that generally determine tactics are: quantity of enemy, range, terrain, weather, your capability (what you have in people, guns and back up support{arty, air, and time they can deliver}), their capability. All that goes into how you deal with an enemy combatants.
In a simpler scenario as switchblade used, it would be possible to dispatch an entire squad if you used your head and found and area they had to cross that you could pin them down in. With a good 7.62{and shooter} that would be somewhere between 700 and possibly down to 100...if the area was that much in your favor.
Something to think about here is that the 7.62's strength is long range. The AR-15/M16's strength is closing and killing, because it has rapid fire that doesn't require interruption to cycle new rounds. If you missed or showed yourself they would then provide suppressive fire on you, keeping your head down so you are not able to effectively use your 7.62 against them, then close on and kill you. Obviously then your training will matter as a tactical factor wouldn't it?
To those of you who said this was a stupid question, it's not. This is a question that has determined many a battle. Yes, it seems the person asking it is new. So were we all once.
wjwill,
Switchblade has it right. This would probably be the closest scenario you would deal with. But it's only one scenario. The point he made correctly is that he would apply tactics to better ensure success. You probably wouldn't come up against one, but many. How many determines tactics (and range) of how or if you would engage.
The factors that generally determine tactics are: quantity of enemy, range, terrain, weather, your capability (what you have in people, guns and back up support{arty, air, and time they can deliver}), their capability. All that goes into how you deal with an enemy combatants.
In a simpler scenario as switchblade used, it would be possible to dispatch an entire squad if you used your head and found and area they had to cross that you could pin them down in. With a good 7.62{and shooter} that would be somewhere between 700 and possibly down to 100...if the area was that much in your favor.
Something to think about here is that the 7.62's strength is long range. The AR-15/M16's strength is closing and killing, because it has rapid fire that doesn't require interruption to cycle new rounds. If you missed or showed yourself they would then provide suppressive fire on you, keeping your head down so you are not able to effectively use your 7.62 against them, then close on and kill you. Obviously then your training will matter as a tactical factor wouldn't it?
To those of you who said this was a stupid question, it's not. This is a question that has determined many a battle. Yes, it seems the person asking it is new. So were we all once.
