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Got a Chance to Compare "Pretty Guud" With "Guud Enuff"

diggler1833

World's Okayest Rancher and Hog Hunter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 22, 2007
    3,996
    17,589
    Oklahoma
    20231223_124428.jpg


    My AT-X in the back, my buddy's SMR in the front. He left his rifle with me for a few months to do some load development on.

    I've read a lot of fantastic optics comparisons on this site by guys with a lot of experience...I'm not that guy, and this isn't that high quality review, so if you're after resolution charts and through the scope pics, you'd probably be better off stopping now and clicking on the next thread.

    What I am is a who has always tried to balance price vs. performance - always looking to spend what I must in order to maximize MY ability, without spending too much on 'niceties' and limiting training, or too little on something that was going to fail me. What I've ended up with are a bunch of $750 - 1,500 optics over the years. * I should note here that I buy on closeout (I'm cheap), so that figure would rise to $1,000 - $2,000 at introduction. I've never lost an animal due to a glass or mechanical issue, and in my wheelhouse of shooting (100 - 750 yards) I am *rarely* fighting a quality issue that fatigues my eye prematurely...the exception being a Bushnell DMR II that has a lot of CA to my eye.

    Enter the S&B 5-25x56 that my buddy has. I know that some probably don't consider this old warhorse to be 'tier 1' or 'alpha glass' anymore, but anything over that $3K mark is tier 1 priced in my book. His is a relatively recent manufacture.

    My most expensive day optic is the XTR Pro on the AT-X in the photo. I do own two thermals, so I've spent money before. But I digress in that I spent well under normal retail on the Pro.

    I've now put probably ~3-4 hours total time with these optics next to each other in all of the possible conditions that I might come across (notice the wet patio in the photo as it was misting and foggy that day with about 400 yards of total visibility).

    So for the layman like myself who wonders if that extra $2K is going to net him or her twice the shooting experience, I'll just state now that it will not. Actually the diminishing returns are pretty apparent here...but there absolutely is a quality difference. I own Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Dan Wesson, Colt Custom Shop etc... 1911s, and I can tell you that all 1911s are not the same - even though they all shoot just about the same. In fact, one company's flagship can be well ahead of another...even though they are priced similarly.

    In broad daylight, the XTR Pro and S&B are really close in that subjective "glass quality" category. Really, my XTR III (US made) isn't but a couple percent behind. Putting all optics together and looking at trees at ~200 yards there was no leaf that the S&B could make out that the Pro couldn't. FOV at 25x though goes to the S&B, but it isn't by a lot. If I had to assign an arbitrary number to the S&B it would be 95, and the Pro would then get a 93. There is a tad more color "pop" to the S&B, and a tad more hue to the Pro. Light mirage saw no difference, but I did not get to use both under heavy mirage yet. Shooting paper or steel or animals would see no optic holding an edge that would be noteworthy.

    In the fog and mist the S&B crept out, but by maybe another point (95 to 92 we'll say for argument's sake). Looking at our Angus cattle at 140 yards on 25x I could still make out the same black flies clinging to the black hair. I could see the same hair pattern on the faces, and identify the same small tufts coming off the tails. Maybe though the Pro was just starting to exhibit a hint of CA with the light and fog. The S&B had zero. At 385 yards (the extent of that angle and conditions) I could still see my blue t-post target stand with both scopes though. Again, you weren't going to lose anything on paper, steel or game with the Pro compared to the S&B.

    At dusk there is maybe one more separation point again (95 to 91). This time I was on 15x (or at least as close an approximation as the ring stated). Shadows in the trees that you couldn't see into with the naked eye had foliage details stand out well with both optics. Each provided extra minutes of shooting light over the naked eye, even at 15x. Maybe, just maybe you might get an extra minute or two with the S&B...but it is impossible to accurately say as light is fading as I'm switching back and forth on my belly between rifles. Is there a difference? Yes. The S&B is better, but to put it into perspective - $2K for ~ 3-4 total extra minutes of hunting (not that either is a hunting optic).

    Turrets on the S&B are noticeably more tactile and audible. Not that the Pro is bad at all, but there is a more noticeable difference here than with glass quality. Plus the S&B has both the tactile pins as well as windows to show you which revolution you are on - which is where that extra money starts to really go into IMO. There is a touch less play in the S&B turrets too and they lock. The Pro also has much more of a wind-hold windage turret in that there is a lot less real estate to grab onto and adjust with. I hold wind anyway, so that isn't an issue for me. Guys that dial wind might find the Pro less enticing. We aren't going to compare a lot of features here though, so I'll stop there.

    *Both scopes have been repeatable and mechanically accurate in to the limited extent of my use.

    * Neither scope has been abused, so I have no comments as to durability under extreme events. The S&B has a great reputation, and I have several old Burris XTR IIs that have seen hundreds of miles bumping around the ranch in a SxS without even the slightest zero shift...I have zero doubts that either the S&B or Pro would fail under normal and continuous use.

    * QC and Warrany: Well, there are several recent gripes about the Pro. Not much about the S&B over the couple of decades that I've known about them. This is untested though between my two examples (and I hope it stays that way).

    Bottom line: Is there a quality difference? Absolutely. For guys that run alpha glass, the thought of downgrading to something like a Pro or equivalent $2K scope is off-putting, and I get it. After my first Wilson Combat, I stopped buying production 1911s. Saving up for another few months to a year was worth it to have that feeling of a quality semi-custom pistol...even if you can't tell the difference between a 1" or 2" pistol at 25 yards.

    For guys that run mid-level optics and wonder if they're leaving something on the table though - I wouldn't stress it as long as you've proven that your current scope tracks true. If you're so competitive as to need that couple of percent difference that I noticed with a $3K+ optic... chances are that you've spent 3x the amount of a alpha scope on matches this year anyway.
     
    I think that it is fair to add that cheaper scopes has come a long way over the last 10 years.

    My first venture to into long range shooting led me to a Vortex Viper PST g1 many years ago. While it did track, it left a lot to be desired glass wise and after looking through a Hensoldt I knew I was missing out.
    Since then Ive had many of the top names and looked through even more. Schmidt & Bender still stands out as one of the best, but at todays prices there is no chance in hell im getting another one.
    And on the other side of things, I tried a Vortex Venom 5-25x56 last summer and was rightfully blown away on what is available nowdays for less than a grand.

    Oh, and Diggler, do your friend a favour and switch the scoperings around so that the nut is on the left side of the gun. It looks so much better that way.
     
    Oh, and Diggler, do your friend a favour and switch the scoperings around so that the nut is on the left side of the gun. It looks so much better that way.

    That was the second thing I noticed on his setup when I opened his hard case. The first was that he was on revolution #2 and had mentioned that his rifle wouldn't return to zero 😄.
     
    I think your message is an important one.

    It's easy to obsess over every little detail, to the point that we lose sight of what the optic is supposed to do. We end up over emphasizing things that, in actual use, aren't that important or significant to the outcome.

    Scopes don't need to be "best in class" for them to be sufficiently functional. I don't think we hear that enough here. I've referred some of my friends to this site and they've been turned off to longer range shooting. They come away with the impression that if you aren't shooting with a 3k scope you can't see/hit the target.

    This is a message that bears repeating.
     
    I hope that I conveyed that there is a difference between $2K and $3K+ glass. There is, and if you can afford it - and want it - then there is no reason to sell yourself short by buying something that you'll eventually end up ditching in order to upgrade.

    However, I answered my own question as to whether I was selling myself short...I see no personal need/situation where I need to sell what I have and start upgrading. The XTR Pro/LRP S3/T6Xi/NX8/MK5 area will serve me well. YMMV.
     
    So for the layman like myself who wonders if that extra $2K is going to net him or her twice the shooting experience, I'll just state now that it will not. Actually the diminishing returns are pretty apparent here...but there absolutely is a quality difference.

    Pretty much. I’ve owned TT, ZCO, and briefly one new Schmidt. I still own quite a few TT, but they simply aren’t worth 2x a Razor G3. Are they better? Yes. Are they that much better? Of course not. It’s at the edges of performance where differences are made, but purchases should follow largely budget, reticle preference, and feature set. Glass at $2K plus is a secondary concern really.

    I own several TT, Razors, as well as a brief foray into the Steiner T6xi and Zeiss LRP S3 lines because TT doesn’t meet every role nor can I afford to outfit every rifle with one. I know I’ll go be poor somewhere else.
     
    I think your message is an important one.

    It's easy to obsess over every little detail, to the point that we lose sight of what the optic is supposed to do. We end up over emphasizing things that, in actual use, aren't that important or significant to the outcome.

    Scopes don't need to be "best in class" for them to be sufficiently functional. I don't think we hear that enough here. I've referred some of my friends to this site and they've been turned off to longer range shooting. They come away with the impression that if you aren't shooting with a 3k scope you can't see/hit the target.

    This is a message that bears repeating.

    I kill the majority of my *daytime* critters with either an old Bushy DMR II, or an old XTR II. Out here, it is very common to dispatch 25 - 30 coyotes, 10 - 20 pigs, 5 - 10 big feral dogs (unfortunately), and 50+ armadillos, skunks, possums and raccoons PER YEAR just on my place.

    I've been looking at wanting to upgrade both scopes I mentioned above...but it is just difficult to formulate the argument to get rid of a proven piece of gear. When the internals finally give way while I'm dialing, or the scopes finally shift zero after their 20,000th bump in a SxS, I'll be the first jump online and place the order.
     
    Pretty much. I’ve owned TT, ZCO, and briefly one new Schmidt. I still own quite a few TT, but they simply aren’t worth 2x a Razor G3. Are they better? Yes. Are they that much better? Of course not.

    I own several TT, Razors, as well as a brief foray into the Steiner T6xi and Zeiss LRP S3 lines because TT doesn’t meet every role nor can I afford to every rifle with one. I know I’ll go be poor somewhere else.

    Actually I value inputs from owners like you. We sound like we may share some similarities.

    I'm not wealthy enough to afford the nicest of everything, so compromising occurs. As long as the compromise doesn't hurt my ability to enjoy what I'm doing I'm fine with it.

    Putting those optics together showed me that I was compromising...but that I wasn't hindering my ability to have fun.
     
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    • Like
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    #DINKlife so I get to spend more on dumb stuff than I should.
     
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    Good, practical, review. I kinda think it is funny the mid tier scopes are about 2-2.5k and the high ends are 3-4k. I have a slough of mid tiers and they have all served me well. I do have a March 4.5-28 I think pretty highly of, but I don't know if it is indeed thaaaat much better. It is nice though. I remember when I ordered it I was doing my usual mental gymnastics justifying why I "had" to have it.

    I think that it is fair to add that cheaper scopes has come a long way over the last 10 years.
    I would agree. And I would also say that is the case with most optics now. I still think the Athlon Cronus is the most underrated scope out there. Meopta makes some great binoculars that give my Swaros a run for their money (especially the 15x). They still aren't "cheap" per se, but the value sure seems to be there.
     
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