Got me a new toy, M70 223

[stello1001]

Bought me a new toy and it finally arrived at my FFL. Was planning on taking it out today and just shoot some thing to see how she functions but it started to rain. I threw on her a 20 MOA weaver base, LRTS, and seekins rings. The rifle is in very good condition overall. However, the bolt does not run smooth at all like my other M70. Right when/where the bolt face & lugs go into and come out of the front part of the action is where it's very rough. Not sure what to do about this to fix it. Suggestions??? Trigger feels like it's been worked on and is relatively light.

Anyhow, it's a heavy varmint barrel model. She is very front heavy. I have a box of 73 ELDM and the first two rounds don't feed well into the chamber, the remaining four do (only 6 fit). The 55 grain HP American gunner all feed smooth.

I will try to see if I can go get her on paper @ 100 and maybe look around to see if I find anywhere else where I can stretch her out.

Things to do after testing her out:

Disassemble
Bed scope base
Fix and fill a small ding/dent on bottom of stock
Apply thread lock to sling studs, they are so loose
Give her a complete paint job
Reassemble

Anyone know torque specs on these for the action screws?

Thanks...




This is how I got the rifle

Below is what I want to fill in order to fix and smooth out

Below is with new base, scope, and rings.

Paint scheme I will do

Stock will be exactly like that canteen and barellee action will be solid color in the nutmeg


**edit to add**

Shot it today, seemed to shoot alright. Had two F2F or light primer strike but they fired on the second try. Also, my fired brass comes out with a slight imperfection. It seems the neck is not perfectly round/circular. There is a small dent on all my brass. I'll try to get some pics momentarily.

Update:

 

[pmclaine]

Shooting these "full size" rifles in .223 is a trip.

I have R700 twins one in .308 and one in .223.

That first shot of the .223 always kind of surprises me as Im so used to the recoil of the .308.

Super fun to shoot.

I put a simple Leupold 3-9X with mil reticle on mine. Turrets are capped. I hold only. Found the point in the SFP magnification where I can double the mil reticle. I hope to take both out to distance beyond 5 mils this year.

 

[acudaowner]

good luck fixing it sounds like a fun project .

 

[pmclaine]

Check with manufacturer of stock, looks like an HS Precision to me. You will probably be between 55-65 inch pounds with a fiberglass stock.

You may find testing differing tourque values will give you better results.

For my wood stock guns I go 40 Front/35 Rear. Wood guns get less compression.

 

[supercorndogs]

I like the model 70. Its a classic. What year? Is to going to have a fast enough twist for the 73 ELD, I thought 1 in 12 was the old standard.

 

[stello1001]

I like the model 70. Its a classic. What year? Is to going to have a fast enough twist for the 73 ELD, I thought 1 in 12 was the old standard.

These came with a 9 twist. The heavy varmint barrel model was made in 6 different chambering I believe, Wilson barrel, and only made in the 90s. I can't tell you with 100% certainty the year this specific one was made but I like that it's from the 90s.

 

[stello1001]

Shooting these "full size" rifles in .223 is a trip.

I have R700 twins one in .308 and one in .223.

That first shot of the .223 always kind of surprises me as Im so used to the recoil of the .308.

Super fun to shoot.

I put a simple Leupold 3-9X with mil reticle on mine. Turrets are capped. I hold only. Found the point in the SFP magnification where I can double the mil reticle. I hope to take both out to distance beyond 5 mils this year.

Tell me about it, I'm little kid with a new toy. Already want to shoot it, I know it will be a fun rifle to shoot.

good luck fixing it sounds like a fun project .

Thanks

Check with manufacturer of stock, looks like an HS Precision to me. You will probably be between 55-65 inch pounds with a fiberglass stock.

You may find testing differing tourque values will give you better results.

For my wood stock guns I go 40 Front/35 Rear. Wood guns get less compression.

It actually is an HS stock, these came with a bedding block but I have not taken it apart just yet to confirm.

Are you suggesting I contact HS or Winchester? I suppose it wouldn't hurt to contact both. Thanks tor the suggestion.

 

[Arc Light]

I have the same M70 Heavy Varmint, but in .308. Same stock as yours. Bought it new in the mid 1990's. The accuracy is impressive, that's why I have never gotten rid of it. Only thing I've done is a trigger job. IMHO, a superior rifle to a R700 in every way. Wish I had bought a .223 back then when they were $500.

 

[spife7980]

“It’s rough”

Is that going forward or rotating down?

The 73s, if you chamber one and extract it can you see land scratches on the bullet?

 

[stello1001]

Literally the cleanest patches I have ever seen

 

[stello1001]

“It’s rough”

Is that going forward or rotating down?

The 73s, if you chamber one and extract it can you see land scratches on the bullet?

The bolt feels very rough running in the action. And even more so, it seems to catch pretty bad when the lugs or bolt face are in the front part of the action. It's also very rough and difficult rotating down as well as lifting up. I may have to take some lapping compound to it.

The 73s do not have land marks. I'm definitely not jamming them in there. They don't feed reliable in the sense that they jam up on the ramp on their way to the chamber. This is only for the first two rounds, the remaining four feed into the chamber with no issues. This seems very odd to me. I'll look further into this tomorrow when I go shoot it.

 

[pmclaine]

Looks like its parkerized.

If it hasn't been shot much lube it up and run the bolt. Watch "Saving Private Ryan" and just sit there running the bolt.

Not a fan of the idea of "lapping compound".

That's going to be a great paint look.

 

[pmclaine]

PS - Im assuming CRF?

Check the extractor and make sure there is no burr or other mechanical hang up on the extractor preventing it from rotating smoothly around the bolt.

 

[Skeptic1]

I picked up a used one about ten years ago. It had a 12 twist. It now has a 7 twist with a long chamber. I kept it regular 223. Didnt go AI. It will shoot 80gr amax at 2.5" coal, 2850fps with around 24 grns of rl15. It really gets a lot of looks when I start making the 6-6.5mm fan boys re-think life.

 

[stello1001]

Looks like its parkerized.

If it hasn't been shot much lube it up and run the bolt. Watch "Saving Private Ryan" and just sit there running the bolt.

Not a fan of the idea of "lapping compound".

That's going to be a great paint look.

Not a fan of lapping compound but I'll do it only as a last resort and only apply a little bit.

It does seem to be re-finished. I was under the impression these heavy varmint models all came in a stainless finish. Although while searching for one, I stumbled upon way too many that were not stainless so Idk what to make of that.

It's possible mine may have been re-finished and that's why it's tough. The bolt sure looks to have been all black in color but now there's some areas where that finish chipped or wore off.

PS - Im assuming CRF?

Check the extractor and make sure there is no burr or other mechanical hang up on the extractor preventing it from rotating smoothly around the bolt.

This is a push feed. I will look further into it, may be it does have some rough burrs.

I picked up a used one about ten years ago. It had a 12 twist. It now has a 7 twist with a long chamber. I kept it regular 223. Didnt go AI. It will shoot 80gr amax at 2.5" coal, 2850fps with around 24 grns of rl15. It really gets a lot of looks when I start making the 6-6.5mm fan boys re-think life.

7 twist is wicked cool. You get to launch better LR suited bullets out there. Yours was not a heavy varmint model im assuming as these only came in a 9 twist to my knowledge.

 

[pmclaine]

1:9 will let you shoot 77s just fine. Try some 8208 XBR at plus or minus 22.3 grains and you will have a lazer.

Yeah if its not CRF I doubt you have a mechanical burr.

Guessing you know what feels "right" vs what doesn't...thank you for suffering my hypothesis.

 

[Skeptic1]

Yes, mine was a heavy barrel.

 

[j-huskey]

@stello1001

I've got one...

It is a HS Precision stock. Pick 50-55-60-65 inch# torque. Shoot it at each setting. Whichever it likes best, stay with it. Mine likes 65.

Mine #1, has a stainless barrel. 9 twist. Didnt come black, barrel or bolt.
#2 was a blued varmint model, 12 twist, wood stock. That bolt also wasn't black or blued.
#3...... see 1 and 2.

Wasnt until a dickhead refinisher put a bead blast finish on bolt #3 that is got kinda rough. FLITZ fixed that.

Were it me, I would very closely examine the bolt, clean it well. If you see marks on the lugs, ...

Make sure the front action screw isnt protruding too high into the receiver and dragging on the bolt. Seen it b4. Can leave marks...

Scope base screw can also protrude into the lug mortise area, cause drag.

Clean the lug mortise on the receiver as best you can. Carefully run (if u got small fingers) finger in to feel for sharp or rough... any sharp or rough should leave some kind of marks on the bolt or lugs.

At that point, really clean on receiver and bolt, and you know no screw is touching, red grease on the raceways and lugs, liberally.
If that doesnt clear up the rough, then, a deeper look into the cause may be needed.

I love all three of mine....

I have dealt with the "parkerized" bolt finish enough on several brands of rifles and ALL of them were rough in some way or another. Flitz and JB Bore paste generally fixed them. Had a few that needed more., a very few.

Be interested to hear your results if you try my suggestions. Very interested.

vr and best to you.

 

[j-huskey]

Every one of mine will hold 6 in the mag. Have had the feeding problems you had with a couple, and some different bullets that have longer noses.
The long nose bullets hit high and miss the chamber.... because the long nose does not let the rear of the bullet pop up out of the magazine "at the right moment"..... short nose bullets pop out and line up as designed.
There are two fixes, and one is a very easy ruined action..... too easy a ruin. Relieving the feed rails under the receiver about a half a millimeter further back will allow longer nosed bullets to pop up and line up, but, to keep from ruining a receiver, only a very professional smith who knows about this and how to do it, should be allowed to touch it.

The second fix, is to lightly taper the chamber mouth, again, something best done by a knowledgeable professional. On one of mine, after a new Hart barrel, under much tighter tolerances, the light taper/chamfer fixed it.

Again, best to you.

 

[stello1001]

1:9 will let you shoot 77s just fine. Try some 8208 XBR at plus or minus 22.3 grains and you will have a lazer.

Yeah if its not CRF I doubt you have a mechanical burr.

Guessing you know what feels "right" vs what doesn't...thank you for suffering my hypothesis.

I tried hornady American gunner in 55 grains, hornady ELDM in 73 grains, and Fiocci with a 69 SMK.

At 100, the 69 and 73 seemed to group pretty good. The 55s, not so well. However, the 55s were the first I tried and later I came to a conclusion that maybe the rifle shoots better with more copper fouling on it. I say this because the 55s seemed very consistent @ 207 yards, after I had tested and fired many rounds @ 100.

I then moved out to 370 from a higher elevation on a hill top. We could definitely feel the wind. While all three ammunition types gave me consistent hits on a 12x12, nothing seemed to be dead center like my 6.5 would have been. I got all hits but it was also a huge plate so that doesn't tell me much, precision wise. I think the wind was a big factor. From 370, I could not conclude what was more accurate.

Maybe one day I will reload, but for now, I'm stuck with factory ammo.

Yes, mine was a heavy barrel.

Well damn, everything I've read points to the heavy varmint rifles being all 9 twist. I'll have to double check and confirm.

@stello1001

I've got one...

It is a HS Precision stock. Pick 50-55-60-65 inch# torque. Shoot it at each setting. Whichever it likes best, stay with it. Mine likes 65.

Mine #1, has a stainless barrel. 9 twist. Didnt come black, barrel or bolt.
#2 was a blued varmint model, 12 twist, wood stock. That bolt also wasn't black or blued.
#3...... see 1 and 2.

Wasnt until a dickhead refinisher put a bead blast finish on bolt #3 that is got kinda rough. FLITZ fixed that.

Were it me, I would very closely examine the bolt, clean it well. If you see marks on the lugs, ...

Make sure the front action screw isnt protruding too high into the receiver and dragging on the bolt. Seen it b4. Can leave marks...

Scope base screw can also protrude into the lug mortise area, cause drag.

Clean the lug mortise on the receiver as best you can. Carefully run (if u got small fingers) finger in to feel for sharp or rough... any sharp or rough should leave some kind of marks on the bolt or lugs.

At that point, really clean on receiver and bolt, and you know no screw is touching, red grease on the raceways and lugs, liberally.
If that doesnt clear up the rough, then, a deeper look into the cause may be needed.

I love all three of mine....

I have dealt with the "parkerized" bolt finish enough on several brands of rifles and ALL of them were rough in some way or another. Flitz and JB Bore paste generally fixed them. Had a few that needed more., a very few.

Be interested to hear your results if you try my suggestions. Very interested.

vr and best to you.

This is great info and I will keep this in mind. Let's go back to #1 being a stainless barrel and having a 9 twist but #2 being a blued varmint with a 12 twist. Are you saying only the stainless models had the 9 twist? I'll double check on mine tomorrow but it shot 69 and 73 grain projectiles pretty tight today at 100.

Every one of mine will hold 6 in the mag. Have had the feeding problems you had with a couple, and some different bullets that have longer noses.
The long nose bullets hit high and miss the chamber.... because the long nose does not let the rear of the bullet pop up out of the magazine "at the right moment"..... short nose bullets pop out and line up as designed.
There are two fixes, and one is a very easy ruined action..... too easy a ruin. Relieving the feed rails under the receiver about a half a millimeter further back will allow longer nosed bullets to pop up and line up, but, to keep from ruining a receiver, only a very professional smith who knows about this and how to do it, should be allowed to touch it.

The second fix, is to lightly taper the chamber mouth, again, something best done by a knowledgeable professional. On one of mine, after a new Hart barrel, under much tighter tolerances, the light taper/chamfer fixed it.

Again, best to you.

It seems as if mine will need to be sent off to Chad @ LRI but for now it staying as it is. That may be something for the future as it's still useable. Thanks for informing me of the fixes.


**edit to add**

Shot it today, seemed to shoot alright. Had two F2F or light primer strike but they fired on the second try. Also, my fired brass comes out with a slight imperfection. It seems the neck is not perfectly round/circular. There is a small dent on all my brass.

 

[Skeptic1]

I will also go back and check the twist in the old barrel.
I suppose I could be mis-remembering. I know that it key holed anything over 69 grains at 100 yards

 

[Mike Casselton]

On the dented neck issue.
I'm assuming yours is the push feed action.

If so, it's most likely an overly strong ejector spring.
It's an easy fix, just like it's done on a Remington 700.
Takes just a few minutes.

 

[supercorndogs]

I tried hornady American gunner in 55 grains, hornady ELDM in 73 grains, and Fiocci with a 69 SMK.

At 100, the 69 and 73 seemed to group pretty good. The 55s, not so well. However, the 55s were the first I tried and later I came to a conclusion that maybe the rifle shoots better with more copper fouling on it. I say this because the 55s seemed very consistent @ 207 yards, after I had tested and fired many rounds @ 100.

I then moved out to 370 from a higher elevation on a hill top. We could definitely feel the wind. While all three ammunition types gave me consistent hits on a 12x12, nothing seemed to be dead center like my 6.5 would have been. I got all hits but it was also a huge plate so that doesn't tell me much, precision wise. I think the wind was a big factor. From 370, I could not conclude what was more accurate.

Maybe one day I will reload, but for now, I'm stuck with factory ammo.



Well damn, everything I've read points to the heavy varmint rifles being all 9 twist. I'll have to double check and confirm.



This is great info and I will keep this in mind. Let's go back to #1 being a stainless barrel and having a 9 twist but #2 being a blued varmint with a 12 twist. Are you saying only the stainless models had the 9 twist? I'll double check on mine tomorrow but it shot 69 and 73 grain projectiles pretty tight today at 100.




It seems as if mine will need to be sent off to Chad @ LRI but for now it staying as it is. That may be something for the future as it's still useable. Thanks for informing me of the fixes.


**edit to add**

Shot it today, seemed to shoot alright. Had two F2F or light primer strike but they fired on the second try. Also, my fired brass comes out with a slight imperfection. It seems the neck is not perfectly round/circular. There is a small dent on all my brass.

View attachment 7241782

Is it a push feed, with a spring loaded ejector? If so that is probably just from the brass hitting the inside of the action as it comes out of the chamber.

 

[Mike Casselton]

BTW,
When you remove the barreled action from the stock, you might see a glob of bedding compound in the recoil lug area.

How do I know this?

Had the same rifle in a 22-250 back in the day and the compound was loose.
I drove over to H-S and asked Tom Jr about it and he said that Winchester insisted on it, but it was unnecessary, and I could remove it without ill effect.
He gave me some replacement goop.
Since mine was peeling out, I removed it and shot it to test it out.

It shot better than before, so I tossed the goop in the trash.

Shoulda kept that rifle, but I ended up trading it for a Browning Citori...

 

[j-huskey]

@stello1001

The case mouth denting is from ejection as several have stated above.
All three of mine did this until
a. The ejector spring got weaker.
b. Tuned the ejector spring.

It's not really a problem for now. Dont worry about it.

AFAIK, the blue barrels came in 12 twist in the early varmint, and 9 in the later varmint. All stainless barrels that i have seen in the varmint and coyote were 9.

Your shooting results mirror mine. My blue barrels shot horribly if clean. After 50 or so fouling rounds, they shot better. When cleaning, you can feel the carbon ring. It likes having one.

So...... we thought, we can fix this.... thinking is dangerous.....
Because we had improved the stainless barrel when the throat shot long, and we set it back.....
We cut one blue barrel to 20", shortened both ends, but lined up the barrel writing just like from the factory for appearance.
New match chamber and new crown. ZERO improvement.
Wanting to know why, but clued in by 'it shoots better dirty', we slugged the barrel. It's a bit on the large diameter. Both blue barrels were fat. The 20" revision is still shooting ok.
The other one, as mentioned earlier, wears a Hart, the previous removed tomato stake was a daily disappointment.

Your wind results are common in any 223 with less than an 80 VLD in a custom chamber.
They are fun to shoot though. A metric ton of crows and turtles have died by mine, and a few coyotes.

Best to you.

@Mike Casselton
Mine shot better fully bedded. There at the end some of the HS stocks were not the best.

 

[stello1001]

Thanks all,

So it seems the final conclusion on the dent cases isn't so bad after all and not some thing to worry about.

@Mike Casselton
You are right about the bedding. I took the rifle out of the stock. Unfortunately, it looks really nasty in there. To my surprise though, the rifle shot decent for the way it seems to be bedded.

I know it's tough to judge group sizes with no reference mark. However, the top group is just barely under an inch, edge to edge. Bottom group is closer to half.

Top group is Fiocci ammo with 69 SMK.
Bottom is Hornady match with 73 ELDM.

As far as this nasty bedding job, I like to think that the reason for the bedding block is so that no further bedding is required. Seeing how it did not shoot all so bad, I want to think it should be alright for the rifle to stay as is. The other part in me knows that removing all that bedding compound will make for a much better mate and will not hurt accuracy.

Thoughts???

@j-huskey
This is something I was not aware of, the different twist rates that is. I suppose it's safe to say mine is a 9 twist but I will confirm later today.

Going back to the bedding, my other option would be to re-bed it but do it properly. I've just never done one and I feel I make things real messy. I'm kinda spent right now so taking it somewhere for a professional bedding is out of the question. I think I will wait a month or so and take it in, once I'm better off financially. Either way, I still had some fun shooting it yesterday out to 370Y.

 

[j-huskey]

@stello1001

That is not a factory Winchester bed job.

They bedded the front lug with a clear bedding.
I have never seen them bed the rear lug (doesnt mean they might not have.) Never seen them use black bedding compound.

Very much appears somebody bedded the rifle later.

 

[Mike Casselton]

@stello1001

That is not a factory Winchester bed job.

They bedded the front lug with a clear bedding.
I have never seen them bed the rear lug (doesnt mean they might not have.) Never seen them use black bedding compound.

Very much appears somebody bedded the rifle later.

My thoughts agree with yours. Winchester bedded just the recoil lug area and nothing in the tang.
Previous owner's work or some hack gun plumber.

 

[stello1001]

just a lil update on it...

 

[pmclaine]

Groups man, show us little tiny groups!

 

[stello1001]

Groups man, show us little tiny groups!

I haven't shot any more groups with it other than those on post #26 here (I'll post them below). Reason for that is because I'll zero once at 100, shoot a few different ammo, and then go straight out to steel.

I do have 3 more types of ammo that I had delivered to me yesterday evening. Hoping I get to go out within the next 2 to 3 days and test. Previously though, the 73 ELDM was shooting pretty good considering the shitty bed job.

 

[sandwarrior]

I haven't shot any more groups with it other than those on post #26 here (I'll post them below). Reason for that is because I'll zero once at 100, shoot a few different ammo, and then go straight out to steel.

I do have 3 more types of ammo that I had delivered to me yesterday evening. Hoping I get to go out within the next 2 to 3 days and test. Previously though, the 73 ELDM was shooting pretty good considering the shitty bed job.

View attachment 7249946View attachment 7249948

Did I miss it? Did you get it to quit binding/grinding?

 

[stello1001]

Did I miss it? Did you get it to quit binding/grinding?

Actually I never updated on that...

I have no idea how it happened, but the first time I went out to shoot with it, I had installed a weaver 20 moa base. The bolt would close and chamber a round fine with the exception that it felt like it was binding.

When I took it all apart to paint, I reassembled everything back but the bolt would not close down all the way. The culprit was one of the base screws. At 10 inch pounds, I still could not close the bolt all the way down. I switched to the screws that came on the bases that came with the rifle. I imagined it would finally allow the bolt to close down and assumed it would go back to the way it was prior (assuming I just had a very rough action).

But actually, it got as smooth as I think it can be, definitely way way better. My guess is, I was somehow able to torque down the base the first time in a way the base screw was just barely making any contact with the bolt. For whatever reason, the second time (when I put the rifle back together after painting) the base screw went in further down.

Anyhow, the other screws allowed me to torque down to 20in/lb without making any contact with the bolt, thus allowing it to run freely.

 

[sandwarrior]

Actually I never updated on that...

I have no idea how it happened, but the first time I went out to shoot with it, I had installed a weaver 20 moa base. The bolt would close and chamber a round fine with the exception that it felt like it was binding.

When I took it all apart to paint, I reassembled everything back but the bolt would not close down all the way. The culprit was one of the base screws. At 10 inch pounds, I still could not close the bolt all the way down. I switched to the screws that came on the bases that came with the rifle. I imagined it would finally allow the bolt to close down and assumed it would go back to the way it was prior (assuming I just had a very rough action).

But actually, it got as smooth as I think it can be, definitely way way better. My guess is, I was somehow able to torque down the base the first time in a way the base screw was just barely making any contact with the bolt. For whatever reason, the second time (when I put the rifle back together after painting) the base screw went in further down.

Anyhow, the other screws allowed me to torque down to 20in/lb without making any contact with the bolt, thus allowing it to run freely.

I didn't even think to say that, but I've had that happen a number of times. Glad it worked out and you know what it was.

Always a good thing to remember when troubleshooting is to go back one step at a time (and test) in the reverse order you did things.

 

[stello1001]

Everything I shot today was sub MOA. The only exception was Hornady black 77 grains, I had one flier. However, I had been shooting all afternoon long and never noticed fliers so I'm not sure what to think of it.

Last time I tried a lot of lighter pill loads, today was the heavies.