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Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

rsplante

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Aug 2, 2011
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Houston, TX
Half way through Glen Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition, I am now convinced that neckturning can be useful for accuracy. He says that Hornady found that a 13% variance in neck thickness greatly opened up groups. (Not a scientific test, but just now, I picked out a random Lapua case and a random Lake City '09 case and measured 6% and 13% respectively with a Sinclair/Starrett MIC-3).

I have narrowed down my decision (so far) to two tools that are much different in approach, but similar in price and speed. Now I need comparisons by people who have used them. The two 'finalists' are 1) the Doyle Gracey model: http://www.matchprep.com/shaver.htm
and the 21st Century Shooting - Neck Turning Lathe:
http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Neck_Turning_Lathe.php

They both hover around $300 (the second one requires a few accessories which bring it up to the Gracey price). The Gracey looks faster and is the one recommended by Glen Zediker; however, the 21st Century model was not around when he wrote his book. The Gracey model looks much harder to set up (need to adjust three cutters to make identical cuts) but I will only be using it for one caliber so it should be a one time adjustment. You have to supply your own power for the 21st Century model (but I have plenty of drills around.) Part of my issue with the Gracey is that I am sure I saw one writeup (have not been able to locate it again) which only claimed a much looser tolerance than the 21st century model. That seems logical under the nstaafl (No such thing as a free lunch) cliche, since the Gracey is faster (once set up), and a similar cost, it seems that something has to give. On the other hand, there is something to be said for speed; however, does it balance out a possible loss of accuracy (when that is the main point)?
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

I have a Gracey, although I admit I haven't used it much since I first got it. It is indeed a bear to get set up just like you want it (much like their case trimmers). I 'temporarily' converted mine over to a second trimmer so I didn't have to adjust the trimmer cutters every time I switched between my two main calibers.

I've found that I do less neck turning than I thought. Premier brass doesn't really need it and it's hardly worth the effort with something like LC. I'm surprised you only got 13% variance on yours. I've seen 40%+. That just leaves the middle-of the road brass and that's where I've done most of my turning. Some lots are better than others, but for the most part it doesn't take much adjustment from one commercial brand to another. And once it's done, it's done.

I never had any complaints when using the Gracey. It is fast for sure and mine held pretty tight tolerances. Lately I've been using a Sinclair hand turner that's really precise. The hand turner can be used with a drill. I'm guessing that even with the drill it's nowhere as fast either of the others.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

As I said, I only picked up a random case of LC, it might have been a lucky pick. You say you don't use the Gracey much, have you thought about selling it?
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

A question just occurred to me. Most people who turn necks are probably benchresters and have really tight tolerances to their chambers, so they are always turning to a specific diameter. I am only interested in concentricity, so I do not have a specific measurement in mind. What will change between different brands of brass will be the thickness of the brass, and that means the outside diameter. If I am only trying to achieve consistency, with the minimal removal of brass, would I have to readjust the Gracey for each brand of brass?
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

you shouldnt neck turn if your not using a tight neck chamber.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you shouldnt neck turn if your not using a tight neck chamber. </div></div>

I wouldn't say shouldn't, I skim the neck on 7-08 brass that I size into 260, I noticed a great reduction in run out, IMHO that has reduced my groups accross the board, all I can say its a lot of work for the gain, and only the end user can determine if its worth it, I use a 21st Century turner with out the lathe attachment, if this is your first go around into turning get the lathe attachment later, the tool is very easy to set up and the adjustments are repeatable.
 
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Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

I did notice that they sell the lathe seperately, so maybe that is the answer, I can always add the lathe later if I wish. Thanks for the input.

By the way, I need a server to host my photos (I guess that is the term). I am a photographer, but have not used something like that yet. Why are you against Photobucket? It has been recommended to me by several others. Just asking.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

I use the 21st Century without the lathe. I chuck the cases into a drill and go relatively slow with plenty of lube. I can do 100 or more in an hour. I am just skimming the surface to ensure concentricity and consistent neck tension. I do it in the living room over a paper towel while I watch TV. You only have to do it once, so it isn't that big of a deal.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did notice that they sell the lathe seperately, so maybe that is the answer, I can always add the lathe later if I wish. Thanks for the input.

By the way, I need a server to host my photos (I guess that is the term). I am a photographer, but have not used something like that yet. Why are you against Photobucket? It has been recommended to me by several others. Just asking. </div></div>

I am sick and tired of seeing this across the internet!
pbsucksh.png

Hosted by ImageShack!
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fully Involved</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said, I only picked up a random case of LC, it might have been a lucky pick. You say you don't use the Gracey much, have you thought about selling it? </div></div>

No, because I am using it (with a different tool head) as a second trimmer.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

You shouldn't rule out Don Neilson's pumpkin. It is very easy to set and gives great results. I use it with a cordless drill. I neck turned my nosler 7-08 brass after I sized it to 260. The neck turner cut so well that the necks look like they are polished. I set it for .013 and that is what I got.(.01295-.01305) It still has enough neck thickness for rough handling with more consistent neck tension. BTW my chamber isn't a tight neck chamber.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you shouldnt neck turn if your not using a tight neck chamber. </div></div>

People also do it to help out with neck tension consistency. Even with neck sizing to give .001 neck tension, I have noticed that some case don't hold the bullet real tight and some are harder to seat then others.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

Do either of these models come with an expander mandrel matched to the mandrel of the cutter? If not, your going to need a universal mandrel or 2 mandrels of the same dia. down to .001"

Having a standard neck'ed chamber has nothing to do with weather or not one should turn necks. Ofcourse if you DO have a tight necked chamber you MUST turn necks, but turning necks is about concentricity and consistancy in the bullet tension department.

I use a K&M... http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-t...ell-holder.html with pilot jack, dial indicator and mandrel iron/expander set. Awesome product in my opinion!
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

21st comes with a matching expander
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

FI,

I'd recommend the K&M tools along with a neck sizing die and bushings, or the Pumpkin. Never had a Pumpkin to test, but I obtain pretty good results can with the K&M tools (carbide mandrels and expandiron), then using a neck sizing die with bushing to size down the neck to just remove a touch from the mouth and make the whole neck consistent.

HTH,
DocB
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

I have the 21st lathe and it works well. Easy to set up and I use a lithium battery cordless screwdriver to run it. I have a different head for each bullet diameter and changing between them is simple.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

427Cobra ...I use a 21st Century turner with out the lathe attachment said:
427Cobra,
I went with your advice and bought their neck turning kit which comes with an expander mandrel and a Titanium Nitride arbor. The only thing that will be redundant if I get the lathe later is the case holder/driver attachment which I bought in addition to the neck turning kit. I can live with that. To the other helpful responders, I did look at the K&M and liked it's claimed accuracy and ease of setup, but what I didn't like is that the cutter is square unlike the 21st Century. 21st Century not only makes the cutter rounded to blend into the shoulder, they actually make saveral angles so that it will match the shoulder angle of a particular case.

Thanks to all responders, it really helped my decision.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

FI,

The K&M cutter is not square, the regular cutter has an angle for the standard neck/shoulder angle . You can also order cutters for different case neck/shoulder angles, such as AI neck/shoulders. Make sure you cut into the shoulder about 0.015" to help prevent donuts.

HTH,
DocB
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

Your gonna need a non bushing FL die, remove the expander, I FL size down Win 7-08 into 260, expand, then trim on my Giraud, then neck turn the necks to .0135, some necks get cut all the way around some don't, the hardest part of the whole set up is setting the amount of shoulder cut, 1/32 is good, after the turning I polish the turned necks with 0000 steel wool, and remove the lube(Imperial) with a bore mop soaked with Acetone.
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

DocB and OP,

The K&M unit has mandrels available for the cutter itself with a carbide cutter built in to cut out doughnuts.

BUT if one runs the brass through the expander button before sizing, the doughnut will be sized to the OUTSIDE of the case...and the cutter does nothing. ????
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

WW,

Not all of it, and the shoulder WILL flow into the neck over time. The carbide mandrel will help remove what's left; but if you size the neck back down to tightly fit the neck, you'll need both the carbide mandrel and cutting into the shoulder.

HTH,
DocB
 
Re: Gracey or 21st Century Shooting for Neck Turning?

I bet if one were to wait long enough Giraud will come out with one. Does anyone still sell the pumpkin?