Grip and Stance

[DocJekyll]

Recently, A friend of mine who is a Marine stated that by having your non shooting hand out, with a high grip on the rifle, that you were needlessly exposing your left side of your to potential rounds. We've since gotten into a little debate over the positives and negatives of each.

I know that the high bore grip comes from the competition world but does having your arm fairly straight really help you that much? Wouldn't it be better to go for the best control of your weapon you personally can get however the grip may be?

Can anyone share their thoughts on it? Im curious what the general consensus is on grip.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance

i was taught to try to stay as compact as possible.

they taught us two methods of achieving this (both methods required that the shooting side elbow be pressed against your body):

1) use a vertical foreward grip and try to bring your non shooting elbow down as if you were trying to touch the magazine with the inside of your arm.

2) grip the front of your lower receiver and bring your non-shooting elbow against your side.

both methods keep your elbows from sticking out and you're less likely to hit a doorway, bannister, guardrail, etc.

the instructor was a retired 18B and preferred method 1 citing "the need to deliver the most force possible in the event you need crack someone's sternum to get their attention."

i prefer method 1 because it's more comfortable for me.

with regards to the arguement that you're exposing yourself by extending your arm:

you're exposed from the side either way. keeping your arm down only means that your arm will valiantly attempt to slow/stop a projectile from entering your torso.

 

[Chucky]

Re: Grip and Stance

The way most Marines shoot with their elbow as close to the body as possible and their hand on the magwell is not how you want to shoot. You want to have your forward hand out as far as possible while still shooting comfortably. The reason being is you are controlling the weapon more so your follow up shots are quicker with your arm out stretched.

The thing that most people don't realize is tactical/combat shooting has most of the same principles as competitive shooting. The goal is to shoot as quick and accurately as humanly possible. The only difference is if you do well at one you walk away and the other you get 1st place.

Vertical pistol grips are great but once again you want to get it out there as far as possible while still being comfortable. VFG really come into their own when you start doing drills and using it for different positions. When you are shooting under cars and around barricades you can actually throw a wrap of your sling around the VFG and you can use it to pull the gun to you while the VFG is resting on your hand while shooting under the car. Also you can push that VFG into a barricade to have a steady position while shooting through loopholes and windows and so forth.

 

[Ballista One]

Re: Grip and Stance

What does this thread have to do with semi-auto rifles? Your right, nothing. This topic needs to get moved to basic marksmanship...

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m_gale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does this thread have to do with semi-auto rifles? Your right, nothing. This topic needs to get moved to basic marksmanship...</div></div>

you're right. asking how to shoot a specific semi-auto platform has nothing to do with semi-automatic rifles.

what's with the tard fest around here lately? did ar15.com get shut down?

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...your follow up shots are quicker with your arm out stretched.


</div></div>

i'm not trying to start an army v. marine shooting technique debate, but i'd like to gather as much data as possible (never to late to work on technique).

with that said:

if you extend your non-shooting arm as far out as possible and pull back on a VFG, wouldn't you tend to rotate the weapon towards your non-shooting hand?

think of it like shooting a handgun. if you lock your elbows out, you tend to pull the weapon to your non-shooting side. that happens because your non-shooting hand is in front (although not by much) of your shooting hand.

wouldn't putting your non-shooting hand further out on a VFG exaggerate this effect?

 

[Ballista One]

Re: Grip and Stance

I was under the the obviously mistaken assumption that this was a technical forum for semi-auto rifles, my bad.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m_gale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does this thread have to do with semi-auto rifles? Your right, nothing. This topic needs to get moved to basic marksmanship...</div></div>

you're right. asking how to shoot a specific semi-auto platform has nothing to do with semi-automatic rifles.

what's with the tard fest around here lately? did ar15.com get shut down? </div></div>

 

[KM375]

Re: Grip and Stance

The non shooting hand is what drives the gun, left, right, up, and down. The firing hand controls and manipulates the safety and trigger, and can pull slightly back into the shoulder. Training styles change, its best to keep training and modify our own techniques as necessary. Larry Vickers, Kyle lamb, Jason Falla, Kyle Defoor, Chris Costa, and Tiger Swan are all using the technique that Chucky has described to some degree or another.

Kyle Lamb video US Army, Delta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCpOt9xVy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw&feature=relmfu

Jason Falla, Australian, SAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh-e6YXSmbk&feature=related

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance


i'll agree with:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The firing hand controls and manipulates the safety and trigger, and can pull slightly back into the shoulder. </div></div>

but i have to disagree with:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The non shooting hand is what drives the gun, left, right, up, and down. </div></div>

the non-shooting hand stabilizes/secures the gun against the shoulder, but the body is what drives the gun.

you're supposed to keep your shoulders square with your target. if you drag the muzzle with your non-shooting hand, you add the step of having to adjust your body behind the weapon.

if you're moving your non-shooting hand instead of your whole body from the waist up, you're losing sight picture and shoulder contact with the weapon.

you have a much greater range of motion laterally and vertically at the waist (especially when compared to an outstretched arm holding a carbine).

 

[Chucky]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...your follow up shots are quicker with your arm out stretched.


</div></div>

i'm not trying to start an army v. marine shooting technique debate, but i'd like to gather as much data as possible (never to late to work on technique).

with that said:

if you extend your non-shooting arm as far out as possible and pull back on a VFG, wouldn't you tend to rotate the weapon towards your non-shooting hand?

think of it like shooting a handgun. if you lock your elbows out, you tend to pull the weapon to your non-shooting side. that happens because your non-shooting hand is in front (although not by much) of your shooting hand.

wouldn't putting your non-shooting hand further out on a VFG exaggerate this effect? </div></div>

You pull the rifle into your shoulder with both hands not just the forward hand. Most guys run their hands around the rail and then a finger or two on the VFG. A lot of people who use VFG use it for positional shooting not to hold onto constantly.

 

[KM375]

Re: Grip and Stance

The non shooting hand is driving the gun, its fast to put the rifle on target. The closer you hold to the mag well the more difficult it is to stop the swing of the rifle. I will agree that the body is moving as well, watch the kyle lamb 1-5 drill the first few seconds from the top down. Notice that he puts the rifle on the targets with a definitive movement
I agree with front toward the enemy that is where your protection is. I was taught years ago, use the magwell, then use the knights armament K grip and now I am using the forward grip with a short troy grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCpOt9xVy4

 

[USACS]

Re: Grip and Stance

The support hand DOES drive the gun. The body does not drive it, but it supports it. It's a "system" where one needs the other to work correctly. When you transition between targets, you need something to push and then stop the movement of the front of the rifle. If you try from the back with your body, you will have over-swing or swaying issues. You have to have something there to counteract the momentum of the front of the gun. Think of it like a swinging gate. If you want to push the gate, it's easier to do it at the end of the gate than at the hinge.

The method of grabbing the front of the lower receiver is basically an adapted method from the MP5, which was adapted from the use of earlier sub-guns like the WWII MP40. There is not a lot of real-estate up front on those since they have short barrels, and the length of pull is long. Add to that the fact that they have almost zero recoil, and that method works. It's a method that was never meant to be used on a long gun. However, if it works for you, so be it and drive on.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You pull the rifle into your shoulder with both hands not just the forward hand. Most guys run their hands around the rail and then a finger or two on the VFG. A lot of people who use VFG use it for positional shooting not to hold onto constantly.</div></div>
This.
Long ago, I converted to this method, and my follow-up shot times dropped and the time it has taken me to transition to targets is much faster.
To illustrate what Chucky is saying:

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance

interesting points. i'll work some in and see how they work out.

the instructor was also quick to point out: "it's your skirt (rifle), wear it the way you want to."

 

[Chucky]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">interesting points. i'll work some in and see how they work out.

the instructor was also quick to point out: "it's your skirt (rifle), wear it the way you want to." </div></div>

That's true. If you are not going to do transitional shooting and drills you probably don't need a VFG. But if you shoot under around vehicles, barricades and so forth is will help a lot. Especially shooting under cars.

 

[AZgunNUT]

Re: Grip and Stance

I attended a train the trainer tactical carbine course last Nov., in that course we were taught the support hand as far forward as you can shoot comfortably for better control over the weapon. Our trainers, taught by Mike Panone, used the annalogy of a hockey stick...improved strength and control with your hand lower on the stick.

Also, I use my vert-grip as more of a hand stop than for any kind of support.

As with every technique learned or taught, try it out, train with it, and if you like it use it otherwise just put it in your tool box.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: Grip and Stance

Thank you everyone for your responses. It's really interesting to see what everyone else thinks about this discussion. I've done a lot of shooting and working with both methods today at the range and found that the method I originally was using works best for me.

I was also quick to point out to my Marine friend that I do more 3 gun competition shooting. Methodologies are always improving and changing and its good to see some of the sources you guys had as well.

I would also like to apologize for putting it in the wrong sub forum, it was late when I made it and I wasn't quite awake.

 

[AMTeam4]

Re: Grip and Stance

The consensus seems to be that the high bore grip gives the best control to the shooter.
A VFG far forward on the rail is almost as good as the high grip method and the VFG makes rifle carry more comfortable during patrols.

The Marines train to square up on their target to maximize plate coverage and to keep elbows in.
The only reason I can think of why the Marines have not transitioned to the high bore grip is that it is a difficult method to teach across the board.
A 100lbs female Marine with a M16A2 most likely won't be able to utilize the method. Especially while wearing plates and helmet.

Marines in the infantry and special operations are already being introduced to the high bore grip and VFG placed far forward on the rail.

 

[MattB1911]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocJekyll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you everyone for your responses. It's really interesting to see what everyone else thinks about this discussion. I've done a lot of shooting and working with both methods today at the range and found that the method I originally was using works best for me.

I was also quick to point out to my Marine friend that I do more 3 gun competition shooting. Methodologies are always improving and changing and its good to see some of the sources you guys had as well.

I would also like to apologize for putting it in the wrong sub forum, it was late when I made it and I wasn't quite awake. </div></div>

Very true that methodologies change, so to echo some others here, find what works for YOU. One thing you might try on your grip is to wrap that thumb over the top of the rail and use your index finger to point your gun at your target. Try it at your house just to see if you can index between targets faster or put sights on target faster. Don't even need your gun at first, just hold your arm out, acquire that beer on the counter with your eyes and point at it, then acquire the next item with your eyes and rapidly move your pointer finger to it. See how it goes...then grab your AR and give it a go...

 

[USACS]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocJekyll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I would also like to apologize for putting it in the wrong sub forum, it was late when I made it and I wasn't quite awake.</div></div>
It's relevant enough to be here. Don't sweat it.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AMTeam4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The consensus seems to be that the high bore grip gives the best control to the shooter.
A VFG far forward on the rail is almost as good as the high grip method and the VFG makes rifle carry more comfortable during patrols.

The Marines train to square up on their target to maximize plate coverage and to keep elbows in.
The only reason I can think of why the Marines have not transitioned to the high bore grip is that it is a difficult method to teach across the board.
A 100lbs female Marine with a M16A2 most likely won't be able to utilize the method. Especially while wearing plates and helmet.

Marines in the infantry and special operations are already being introduced to the high bore grip and VFG placed far forward on the rail.</div></div>
I think a big part of the reason why the USMC is also not as big into it is exactly what you pointed out - the A2 stock. The USMC has a long-standing history of staying with longer rifles for long-range accuracy. It goes with their "Every Marine is a Rifleman First" concept. Unless something has changed in the most recent of years, a majority amount of the USMC uses A2s and A4s, whereas Army, Air Force and Navy tend to gravitate more towards the M4 and M4A1. The longer support hand grip is more conducive to a shorter length of pull, and fixed stocks tend to be too long to make this a comfortable position.
Or such is theory on the matter. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think it's also a matter of the accuracy standard, in that Marines are heavily taught about off-hand and support shooting for long-range accuracy. You really can't use that extended hold to engage targets at 500m, so people wind up going to what they were taught in Boot and then modifying it from there.

If you look at the MEU(SOC) qual course, you see a more modern CQB/Urban qual course that is more conducive to the shorter rifle platform of a carbine, and the associated longer support hand positioning.
Again, just surmising out loud.

 

[DWALKER]

Re: Grip and Stance

....

 

[josephberry]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... </div></div>spit it out David.

 

[35WLN]

Re: Grip and Stance

I would like to first off say I don't have any military training. I do however shoot alot of 3gun, and here is my opinion. In USACS pics he is leaned way too far forward. It takes away from your mobility. Your shoulders should be only a couple of inches infront of your waist. His stock is also too long for him it looks like. You also want to point your index finger at the target. To speed up your transitions you use your waist and knees. Your upper body is a unit that doesn't change unless forced by obstacles.
I am able to take offhand shots at man sized targets at 300 with very little problem in this form. However shooting at 500 offhand is a waist of ammo in the field I would imagine (no experience).
Put all of the different forms against a timer and see what you get. I can tell you that all of the top competiters in 3gun have and that is why they utilize the form I m trying to describe.
Take some classes and definately shoot some matches and I am sure your skills will improve. An instructer that I really like is Matt Burkett.

 

[USACS]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 35WLN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to first off say I don't have any military training. I do however shoot alot of 3gun, and here is my opinion. In USACS pics he is leaned way too far forward. It takes away from your mobility. Your shoulders should be only a couple of inches infront of your waist. His stock is also too long for him it looks like. You also want to point your index finger at the target. To speed up your transitions you use your waist and knees. Your upper body is a unit that doesn't change unless forced by obstacles.
I am able to take offhand shots at man sized targets at 300 with very little problem in this form. However shooting at 500 offhand is a waist of ammo in the field I would imagine (no experience).
Put all of the different forms against a timer and see what you get. I can tell you that all of the top competiters in 3gun have and that is why they utilize the form I m trying to describe.
Take some classes and definately shoot some matches and I am sure your skills will improve. An instructer that I really like is Matt Burkett.</div></div>
I don't do competition. I have in the past just for fun, but found it to be a mix of bad tactics and poor decision making. I can say from experience that based on my personal observations, 3-Gun does a very poor job of recreating combat conditions, as well as LE-type CQB conditions. I have my experience in both combat and LE CQB operations. Any time I've ever been at IPSC, USPSA or other compeitions, I have been critiqued by shooters who have all of this sage advice for getting the most points and the fastest clock. The problem was that almost everything they recommended went against what was tactically sound and what was my training. Misses don't mean much if you can get a fast time. That's what action arms competition taught me.
What I know from experience is that you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

My stance has been developed through trial and error. In that position, my rifle does not move. At all. If you can't tell, I'm not a small guy. I have short stubby arms and a barrel chest. I have to work with my body. The photo of me from the left side was obviously a staged photo for training purposes in relation to VFG use and support hand positioning. It's obviously going to look exaggerated.
But with all that said, I have no mobility issues in that position. I go through doors and down hallways in houses, businesses and warehouses on almost a nightly basis in that position.
In relation to movement, most action shooters I've watched have movement issues. The process is usually RUN-STOP-SHOOT. RUN-STOP-SHOOT. Without going into detail about the dynamics of movement while actively engaging a threat, I will point out that 3-gun again does a very poor job of replicating proper tactical movement and operation. Just sayin'.

 

[Texasshooter30]

Re: Grip and Stance

I find that is not always best, Right handed shooter, left arm goes vertical, right arm goes horizontal, works for me and friens best on practical shooting and not full auto.

 

[AZgunNUT]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texasshooter30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find that is not always best, Right handed shooter, left arm goes vertical, right arm goes horizontal, works for me and friens best on practical shooting and not full auto. </div></div>

Drink and post much?!?

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texasshooter30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find that is not always best, Right handed shooter, left arm goes vertical, right arm goes horizontal, works for me and friens best on practical shooting and not full auto.</div></div>

so you make a giant "L" with your arms while shooting?

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AR_guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Very true that methodologies change, so to echo some others here, find what works for YOU. One thing you might try on your grip is to wrap that thumb over the top of the rail and use your index finger to point your gun at your target. Try it at your house just to see if you can index between targets faster or put sights on target faster. Don't even need your gun at first, just hold your arm out, acquire that beer on the counter with your eyes and point at it, then acquire the next item with your eyes and rapidly move your pointer finger to it. See how it goes...then grab your AR and give it a go...</div></div>

I'll give it a try, I'm always up for finding better ways of doing things. Thanks. In the picture my thumb is actually resting in the groove between the 12, and 9 rails. It kinda locks it in and keeps my hand from slipping. I will def try some other grips to see if I like them better.

I know 3 gun and some of the other rifle competitions aren't the best for re-creating combat scenarios but I like to mix it up and never run the same drill more than a couple times, opting for a more random approach. Incorporating problem solving and decision making into the process makes it better in my opinion for a defensive roll should the need ever arise.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Grip and Stance

try that extended grip bs with a 11.5 kitty and yer missin a weakside hand. just sayin. i have to agre with the bloak what said the body and waist drive the carbine not a support hand. keep them elbows in tight marines and let these 3gun wondraments look silly.

 

[DMack]

Re: Grip and Stance

A few months ago, we had two deputies shot serving a narcotics search warrant. The #1 and #2 were both shot from the hallway, by a female using a .357 Smith and Wesson. Both were wearing full entry gear, with mandarin collars and deltoid armor... She was in an ambush position, and opened fire on them as soon as they made entry.

Both were running their AR's in this configuration. (USACS... I borrowed your picture, not to point you out, but your body position is PERFECT for describing "why" the two deputies were hit.)

I am not sharp shooting anything here. It's like picking nat shit out of pepper.

But, if you look at how the support arm is extended at length, now imagine deltoid armor... how this would raise the shoulder considerably... making a nice soft target under the arm pit. This is where both deputies were shot.

Arm chair quarterbacking says, that if they would have had their elbows down, the deltoid armor would have been in the proper position, and "maybe" defeated the rounds???

Maybe is a big word.

Bottom line... I teach both. When we run stages, and are driving the carbine quickly... I will not argue that the extended grip like this is faster, more stable, and gets rounds on target quicker and more precisely... using body indexing.

But, in CQB scenarios... I tend to tuck my arms in a bit. God knows I spend enough time getting pelted with SIM rounds and UTM in the shoot house... I have learned to protect my underarms.

Apples to Apples...

In effect, when I run a pistol, I shoot "thumbs forward" and effectively point with my thumbs as well as the front sight. My arms are extended, and yes... my deltoid armor rolls up just the same.

So, know the risks of each... and train them. As always... situation will dictate. The bottom line is train. Train. And then... train some more...

I wish I had "THE" way to run a gun. Then, it would be easy. We tend to teach "A" way to run a gun. Put the skills in your toolbox, and use what fits... discard the rest.

Cheers Mates!

 

[DMack]

Re: Grip and Stance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try that extended grip bs with a 11.5 kitty and yer missin a weakside hand. just sayin. </div></div>

MAR... you are spot on here. That's why I run a nice LaRue handstop on my 10.5"... because Murphy is a MOFO... and that shorty is short enough for my long ape arms to pass in front of the muzzle...

Never has happened, but... it sure COULD.

Especially under adrenaline induced stress... everyone makes mistakes.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Grip and Stance

The way we teach this is to use the sling for support and the butt stock is solid in the pocket with the support hand forward as far as the shooter is willing. With a 2 point sling just tight enough you get the support needed to make the shooter not tired and gives a solid recoil management for each follow on shot.

The support elbow is locked; with the thumb forward towards the target. The sling comes under the support arm and over the support hand. Then the shooter pushes the rifle a little to the firing side. This in-turn anchors the butt stock in the pocket and will not slip or slide on a plate carrier. Also this gets the plates as square to the front as possible.

With this setup transitions to the support side is fast and a simple 6 step process. Also transitions to the sidearm is a simple 6 step process also.

We have found this works with every system form a 10.5” to a 18” and does not wear out the shooter as much.

YMMV

John