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GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

viersco

Private
Minuteman
Dec 18, 2003
69
1
67
Nebraska
www.viersco.com
I said i would post my findings on shooting the GS Custom 414gn bullet. I worked up loads starting at 100yds, I settled on 148gns of US869, this is a nice firm load.

The test rifle was my 375 Snipetac with a Bartlien Gain twist barrel. 16 to 8" exit twist at 31" It was just under 8" at 32", i cut off 1 extra inch to bring it closer to 8" exit.
It sports a Viersco custom repeater action, Manners carbon stock and a Night Force 8-32x56 scope. Rifle is under 17 pounds. Let me tell you shooting 414gn bullets at 3000 fps is a hand full.

100yd tests started with trying several types of powder,
US 869 and H-BMG50 The latter did not group as well.

IMG00008-20100630-2114.jpg

Top 2 shot group was the BMG-50 powder
Lower group was the US 869, both were with 148gns. The US 869 showed a higher velocity potencial. This target was shot on day one of testing. Temps were around 90deg.

The next day I set up the 535yd target, I plugged the numbers into Exbal and it gave me 8.5moa from 100yd sight in, also -1.5 moa for wind correction. I fired two shots with the BMG50 loads, group was not good. I then fired 2 shots with the US869 load and the group was right at 1.629". The day started with moderate gusting winds and they kept increasing so I decided not to try and set up the 1150yd target until the wind was more managable. I did not set up the chrono as the wind will blow it over.

414GSCustom_test_2.jpg


I tested my pet load using the 350gn Predator solids vs the 414 GS Customs.

Fourth of July brought nice weather as a storm front went through over night. The wind was 2-6 mph from the left, 76deg but quite humid. I set up the 1150yd target, went back to the work shop and loaded up 5 test rounds. I consulted Exbal once again, it showed I would need 24.8 moa from the 100yd starting point, Since the rifle was also sighted in at 535yds i also checked exbal to see what the setting would be from that range, 16 moa needed. I made the nesesary adjustments to my scope, plus the - 1.00 moa for wind. I fired two shots and made my trek out to the target. Two shots had landed on the board, low aprox 2" apart. I measured 32" low from sight center and 10" right. I went back and checked the scope settings and found that I did not count correctly when comming up. I made the adjustments with elevation and windage, fired two more shots and went back out to check. The group now was on target center with just a little left. This group measured 1.750" center to center, just about the same as the first two shots. All of the bullet holes are perfectly round. Velocity was lower today vs the first day tests. First day it was running 3075fps but it was much drier air and hot, today was cooler and very humid. Exbal was off by aprox .4 moa on its predictions, I used 1.250 BC, 1400 elevation here.

GS_414mk2_test_1150yds.jpg


I didnt set up the chrono on day two of testing, just one and three, the difference in velocitys was prolly due to hot vs mild weather. I used the same loads for all tests. I used the same cases for each test session.

My next test will be with a standard 8 twist Lawton barrel and throated for these bullets.

So far I am very pleased with the test results.

Dave
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

I don't mean this in an ugly way, so I just want to state I am 100% honest in my question...

what does 2 rounds at 500 yards prove ?

I get it, these things are expensive, so you really don't' want to waste them, but 2 rounds statistically doesn't say anything to me. And frankly wind happens, I think seeing the spread in the wind helps someone understand the potential. I would be shooting this stuff 100% through a chronograph, in every conditions possible. Heck when that Superformance came out from Hornady I shot it through 4 rifles over a chronograph for every round and that stuff was $22 a box of 20.

Most people will except a 3 shot group, but 2 rounds... if that is the statical model people are using for a high dollar ELR round, I think they are being short changed. People are supposed to be able to launch these things beyond 2000 yards, yet the tests are conducted with 2 shots ?

Seriously not a personal dig, I'm just looking to understand considering the money people invest in this stuff to reach out and touch something. When you read over the pages of argument lately, if you basing those fights on this, me, I have to say, well I won't.

Help me understand the thinking...
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave, looks good. Looking forward to see the testing out at Mac's

Are you gonna put a break on that beast or just continue take the abuse
grin.gif
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

LL

I don't think anyone will argue with the fact their is little to no statistical value from 2 shot groups.

I believe what's being demonstrated here is the concept of long to caliber projectiles and these high gain twist barrels vs. bullet stabilization.

One could surmise that the assumptions made on stabilization/twist rates, and initial BCs are at least in the ballpark.

Preliminary testing using two shots is a glimpse of what will surely be more thorough testing......my 2 cents.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Lowlight....Im not sure you get what is going on here....First of all, this is revision two on a new bullet. GS only gave Dave Viers 30 bullets. It's like walking in the hot sahara with just one jug of water man, your goal is to conserve.

Dave is not out to prove what great groups the 414 does. Guys like me and others will do that in time. Dave is testing the second round of the 414's to see if they will even stabalize. and if so, what barrel twist it likes. He's got other testing with other barrels and he won't even finish, cause he will be out of bullets.

GS is waiting to hear the results, results that they are already pretty much aware of. Once Dave is done, we will know what twist to cut our barrels to.

Soon enough, several of us will be posting group sizes. Personally I am JACKED, they may only be TWO shots, but so far they really like to be close to one another like magnets. This is really a good sign, a sign that they like the 8 twist.

zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Lowlight,
It has nothing to do with costs shooting 2 shot groups. I have only a limited bullet supply for the initial stabiltiy tests. We are concerned with the long bullets flying straight. We need to see round holes and decent group sizes.
From there GS will make decisions on if they are happy with seen results before changing a design. You cant test a bullet for group size one day in the wind and next day in no wind. Conditons need to be close so the data can be checked over from different distances. When i do final testing i shoot 3-5 shot groups. The 1150yd test today was 4 shots, two low, scope adjustment and then two on center. Both groups put together were just under 2" for 4 shots. I have no problem testing bullets in the wind, but for this particular test we are looking for a different result.

Last winter i tested the Predator 350gn bullets, i fired 5 shot groups at 1125 and 1400yds. But that was after i worked up loads using 2 shots. I could keep those bullets in .5moa all day long. A lot of the custom bullet makers use the 2 shot test method for starting tests, then they will go to 3 or 5 shot groups.

I understand your question about 2 shot groups and lot of the normal hunters or shooters dont understand what is happening when a new bullet is being tested, especially these crazy long bullets that will require special equipment to utilize them. The most important thing I am testing right now is how the bullets stabilize through a 8 twist barrel. If they wobble around it will show up real fast. The first prototype of this bullet would shoot 3 shots through one hole at a 100yds, but at 535 they were not stable, holes were not round, so the design needed to be changed. The MK 2 Bullet has passed the stabilization test, to 1150yds.

Its good to ask questions and i take no offense.

Dave
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, looks good. Looking forward to see the testing out at Mac's

Are you gonna put a break on that beast or just continue take the abuse
grin.gif
</div></div>

There is a brake on the rifle! It dont kick so bad it just jumps around on the bench.
like a kangaroo!
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viersco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight,
It has nothing to do with costs shooting 2 shot groups. I have only a limited bullet supply for the initial stabiltiy tests. We are concerned with the long bullets flying straight. We need to see round holes and decent group sizes.
From there GS will make decisions on if they are happy with seen results before changing a design. You cant test a bullet for group size one day in the wind and next day in no wind. Conditons need to be close so the data can be checked over from different distances. When i do final testing i shoot 3-5 shot groups. The 1150yd test today was 4 shots, two low, scope adjustment and then two on center. Both groups put together were just under 2" for 4 shots. I have no problem testing bullets in the wind, but for this particular test we are looking for a different result.

Last winter i tested the Predator 350gn bullets, i fired 5 shot groups at 1125 and 1400yds. But that was after i worked up loads using 2 shots. I could keep those bullets in .5moa all day long. A lot of the custom bullet makers use the 2 shot test method for starting tests, then they will go to 3 or 5 shot groups.

I understand your question about 2 shot groups and lot of the normal hunters or shooters dont understand what is happening when a new bullet is being tested, especially these crazy long bullets that will require special equipment to utilize them. The most important thing I am testing right now is how the bullets stabilize through a 8 twist barrel. If they wobble around it will show up real fast. The first prototype of this bullet would shoot 3 shots through one hole at a 100yds, but at 535 they were not stable, holes were not round, so the design needed to be changed. The MK 2 Bullet has passed the stabilization test, to 1150yds.

Its good to ask questions and i take no offense.

Dave</div></div>

Thanks for the clarification,

I would ask another, would it not be better to have the tissue paper targets placed along the bullet's flight path to capture the impacts from say, 200, 300, etc... you can essentially take the limited supply and maximize the data.

I have been privy to ballistic tests, and the ones I have been subject too used this method for mapping the trajectory, and stability.

I would have a test target at 100, another at 250, and the final target at 500 yards if I was testing this. Now your two shots yield 3X the data.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave, Id like to run my xbal here to validate,,,what exact station pressure did you use and what did you plug in for humidity??

Also, you said 3000 fps is a handfull...did you notice any measurable increase in recoil when you went from the 350 preditors to the GS 414's. The group on the 414's were tight, Im guessing the recoil couldn't have been bad when switching from one bullet to the other?


thanks
zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Lowlight,
I cant do that type of testing here, i have 100yds then my next possible distance is 535, then the next closest is 1125.
We have very steep hills here and its hard to get any progressive target placements. In the winter months or late fall when the crops are out i can get more distance by going into the neighbors land.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot1760</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, Id like to run my xbal here to validate,,,what exact station pressure did you use and what did you plug in for humidity??

Also, you said 3000 fps is a handfull...did you notice any measurable increase in recoil when you went from the 350 preditors to the GS 414's. The group on the 414's were tight, Im guessing the recoil couldn't have been bad when switching from one bullet to the other?

The recoil is a bit more with the bigger bullets, its not extreme. I need to put on one of my brakes that does a better job. I have a Cheytac brake on it now.

I would have to look and see what i plugged into the exbal. Hum is 70% , 29.8 bar press. 72 deg 1400 elv.


thanks
zman </div></div>
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Lowlight,
Using multiple surfaces are a good idea when static stability needs to be checked. One can then see to what extent the bullet is yawing and at what distance the precession cycles dampen out, if indeed they do so.

Here we are interested in the behaviour of the bullet with respect to dynamic stability and tractability. Both of these, once the condition sets in, will usually become worse. If the bullet becomes dynamically unstable at any point we go back to the drawing board. Any further confirmation at greater distance is superfluous and just more work.

At this point the cost of the bullets are not an issue. We are indebted to Dave for his contribution in time and components and charging for the bullets would be unthinkable. If these do well as we go along, as soon as he says to send more for the next round, changes (if required) will be made and they will be manufactured and on the way.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave,
Now that is the kind of data I enjoy reading about, instead of these past few threads of others quibling about dates and such.
Data is looking encouraging to say the least.
I must have misread, but I thought you mentioned in an earlier thread that you were running a straight 8x but state in this thread using a gain twist. What are your initial impressions of the gain twist ?
Your verticle spread with those 2 shots is increadible as well. Can't wait to see further developements.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Bluejazz,
I have an 8 twist that i tried a few of the first run of GS bullets, i have to put it back together as its a customers rifle and its only a barreled action. It was easy to use my rifle as its complete. I havent seen much difference or any advantage so far with my gain twist barrel vs a standard twist. However this is a faster twist barrel and not many standard bullets will work in it. There is also the problem with the progressive twists and shooting jacketed bullets, they have a tendency to twist the bullet apart if the gain is too severe, that is what others have found with them. I have tried it with jacketed bullets, even one made for the 8 twist and they simply come apart.

For all the testing i have done at extreme ranges over the years, this is the tightest set of groups i have ever shot. I cant guarentee they will stay in that particular size over a larger string but the possiblilty is there for some great accuracy. When you start talking match grade then your into 10 shot groups where lots of things can and will go wrong.
The smallest group you will ever shoot is the first two shots, it only gets larger from there.

Dave
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave,

"There is also the problem with the progressive twists and shooting jacketed bullets."... Mild gain (~.25" in 30") geometry has been used with jacketed bullets, and it is a fad that recycles every couple of decades. Any real advantage there is questionable.

"For all the testing i have done at extreme ranges over the years, this is the tightest set of groups i have ever shot."... Our test 8" twist barrel is the constant Lawton, and it is adequate to the task, but your 12-8 LGT does have some minor advantage with axial force equalization, and projectile/bore axis alignment, when used in conjunction with a properly dimensioned engraving-band layout. This may be the reason for the unusual accuracy that you are experiencing. A VGT barrel capitalizes on these advantages to an even greater extent.

At some point it will be helpful to reveal the caliber length of the projectile, or put it through a chronograph at range, as a cross check on the claimed BC value.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

sounds like a successful stability test, well done GSC.
Hopefully it maintains stability all the way past 3000yds.

Dave, is there anywhere you can go to really stretch it out next time?
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Gerard,

It doesnt sound like Dave is going to take this bullet any further for these initial tests. Sounds like his focus is with the barrel twist.... In your experience, if this bullet really is stable to 1,150 yards, shouldn't it remain the same all the way to transonic??? Or should there be another test even further??

And secondly, if these tests are what you expect and you guys don't go to a MK3, how long can I expect to wait to see the 414's twin brother (the hallow point) at my door step in WA state. I would like to order a 100 or so for my own testing once you guys sign off on the 414 MK2.

zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

First thing in the morning i am going to move the target to 1400yds and fire a 5 shot group to see exactly how things are progressing. I am as curious as the rest of the guys here. Raining here now or i would be out there.

groper.
This is as far as i dare go here, there is no back stop if i try for more distance. Wyoming is 450 miles from me, there i can go as far as i want. I am hoping this fall when my other project is up and going i can take a weekend trip out there for some real long tests.

Noel, my barrel is 16-8 twist. I agree if the gain twist barrels were good for jacketed bullets the big boys would be using them.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave,

"Noel, my barrel is 16-8 twist."... All the better. This is definitely enough to have a noticeable effect.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave, at 1400 yards will you only be testing the 1==8 standard twist or will you also send a few in the gain twist. I don't want a gain twist barrel, but it would be nice to see a side by side comparison from the 8 to a gain 8. I hope there is little change....

zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

shoot1760,

We are working on getting Dave some more bullets, but it takes a while. I'm sure he had to be stingy with what little he has to save them for his VM, as I certainly would anyways. Thing is we are looking at a lot of tests now! 8 to GT8, 1400yds, VM vs ST, exc. Didn't plan for all this, so not enough bullets were sent, and it's Dave's time that is also spent.

From what we have seen with our previous bullets, in all calibers, in all rifles, it's the straight twist that comes out the best. I can tell you the bullet stability knows no difference between gain and straight twist, if it exits the same.

This was a test for stability, and it has passed. When stability is being tested, you only see two things happen: Bullet fails or passes at 100 yds, twist stabalized; and passes or fails at 400-600 yards (depending on speed and BC), design stabalized. What we seen the first time is that what usually appears around 300-400 yards with lower BC bullets and at lower speeds, didn't appear until 500+, but still appears nonetheless. If it makes it past that point, and still on trajectory, it's stable. So the bullet should very well be good for as long as you would like to shoot. Fact is, bullets become more stable, or calm down as some people say, the further out. Even in extreme situations, nothing borderline stable will make it past 800 without being 100%. Either the bullet is going to flip by this point, or it isn't.

The HV (High Velocity Hallow Point) version is an easy task, once the SP is licked. Gerard is working on it now, and the design can be finished within a few days, though it will take from 4-6 weeks to get the bullets.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what we have seen with our previous bullets, in all calibers, in all rifles, it's the straight twist that comes out the best. I can tell you the bullet stability knows no difference between gain and straight twist, if it exits the same.</div></div>

And this is based on testing of precisely how many gain twist barrels with your bullets regardless of caliber, cartridge or purpose???

statements like this are misleading, please avoid them unless you wish to provide an answer to the above question.

i feel like a moderator here, but i feel the need to keep things in perspective in light of all the bickering in relation to the information posted regarding these cutting edge bullets from multiple vested interests weve all witnessed these past few days.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Groper,

In all honesty, the bickering on this thread starts when someone else (who doesn't have a dog in the fight) jumps in on a thread and starts throwing mud.

Dave Viers posted some data, some data that myself and others have been waiting for, for sometime. Dave's data is GS data that we want to know about. Frankly, weather it's Berger or ZA or Sierra, if other bullet makers jummp in on thread that's really about GS, the muds gonna start to fly.

Personally, I think that other vendors need to respect this and bite their tongues a bit on threads not intended for them.

my .02
zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And this is based on testing of precisely how many gain twist barrels with your bullets regardless of caliber, cartridge or purpose???</div></div> Without looking up records going back to 2003 and up to 2007, 9 or 10.

Therefore this stands as stated:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what we have seen with our previous bullets, in all calibers, in all rifles, it's the straight twist that comes out the best. I can tell you the bullet stability knows no difference between gain and straight twist, if it exits the same.</div></div>

What is undisputed is that brass may like gain twist more than standard twist but, with copper, it seems a moot point.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Gerard,

"... it's the straight twist that comes out the best."... Better than Dave's results?

" I can tell you the bullet stability knows no difference between gain and straight twist..."... The issue is not one of "stability", but <span style="font-style: italic">accuracy</span>.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

I got a tell ya guys this petty bickering, sniping and unending questions with a tone of alterier motive coming from Noel and Groper is getting old.
I have no dog in this fight. I have shot none of the above mentioned bullets to date. I am hear to learn from posted results, gather the facts and make my own determination on the matter. But the tone coming from Noel and Groper questioning every little aspect of every post made by others is really disgusting and quite frankly souring the whole topic.
Good luck to those putting forth the work involved in developing their product and who are willing to stick to the facts and post their results and let the facts stand on their own merit.
If you have imformation on your bullets and test results, I would be very interested in reading about them as well.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Noel,
Dave said: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The test rifle was my 375 Snipetac with a Bartlien Gain twist barrel.

My next test will be with a standard 8 twist Lawton barrel</div></div>

Anthony said: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what we have seen with our previous bullets, in all calibers, in all rifles, it's the straight twist that comes out the best.</div></div>

Noel asks: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better than Dave's results?</div></div>

You must have missed where Dave said that he has not shot the standard 8" twist yet. Until he does, any answer would be guessing and that is not a good place to be. So, we wait until we know, rather than guess. We can only make statements based on what has been done. If new results show improvements and requires a change of mind, that is good too.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got a tell ya guys this petty bickering, sniping and unending questions with a tone of alterier motive coming from Noel and Groper is getting old.
I have no dog in this fight....
</div></div>
i have no dog in this fight either, have nothing to do with noel carlson, i have never fired GSC bullets nor noels bullets... i am waiting to purchase ANY bullets when they are ready, im simply another consumer from neither south africa nor the USA.

Its not going to go publicly unmolested when competitors make sweeping statements (intentionally or not) that rubbish or claim superiority over, the unproven CONCEPTS of anothers in a bid for market share. This forum is not a free advertisement media. Unchecked however, thats exactly what it becomes...
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Groper,
Thanks for setting it straight.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Groper,

I think this might be a good opening to confirm, for bluejazz and others, that you and I have no personal connection off-line in any capacity.

Bluejazz, and Kelly, can you say the same?

"This forum is not a free advertisement media."... I differ from you only so slightly on this point. The Hide is probably the premier outlet for new developments in technical shooting on the web. It <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a market, and efficiently sorts out the wheat from chaff with great speed... much better, in fact, than the folk wisdom "taboo" mechanism mentioned in another thread.

It is because of members, like you, that testing interpretation, and conceptual scrutiny, are fast-tracked. While this forum is perfectly accessible to anybody looking to inform themselves from scratch, it is also populated by some very knowledgeable, and specialized, talent. I have been the beneficiary of this.

Many of the concepts touched upon in this, and similar threads, are well proven in other venues. As applied to small arms still others, while proven, are not ready for publication. That time is coming. It does no harm to prime consumers for alternate ways of perceiving their sport.

"This forum is not a free advertisement media. Unchecked however, thats exactly what it becomes..."... I would like to thank Lowlight publicly for his tolerance, and patience, in this regard. He has provided us all with a vehicle to accelerate the implementation of innovation.

The "Market" is the beneficiary of precisely this type of forum (less so beneficial relative to the incivility
smile.gif
).

Best,
Noel







 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Noel,
As per your request I am publicly stating that I have no connection with anyone that has posted on this thread. I have conducted no financial business nor have I used any of the products mentioned.
The only person I have met is Dave Viers, who a couple of years ago, we discussed a LR build, and he was kind enough to let me shoot his 338 Snipe-Tac on a weekend.
My posts are my own thoughts with no regard to loyalty to anyone on this thread. I try and read to learn, and appreciate the effort put forth by those that post imformation and results of their efforts.
If you have some imformation on your bullets and performance results of them, please post a link to it, as I will be glad to read up on them .
At which point as a comsumer I will gather as many relevant facts as I can and make a choice on what to purchase.
I would think you would put your effort into posting your own data and test results of your product line on a thread then spending your time trying to contradict efforts of your competitors.
As a potential consumer, I would find that more appealing.
Again, I am interested in your product line and it's performance, so please post a link to some of your results and I will be glad to educate myself on them.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

To put it in a nutshell bluejazz, noel isnt selling anything yet, he is working on a few things.

Noels system involves using his designed high BC banded solids, ideally from a gain twist barrel as he believes there are several advantages to these barrels with special regard to banded solid projectiles. putting it simply, the main advantages essentially amount to better accuracy by his reasoning.

GSC`s reasoning differs in this respect, they beleive there is little to no advantage in running gain twist barrels (except for brass projectiles) certainly not enough advantages to outweigh the disadvantages. They believe a normal straight twist barrel is a better option, many things considered.

Interesting thing is that in this test in this thread, dave viers fired a GSC bullet from a gain twist barrel (noels preference remember) and achieved what seems to be exceptional accuracy at 1100+ yds. See the dilemma? Now we have to wait and see how these same bullets do from a straight twist that will imapart the same RPM`s on exit, ie 1:8twiwst which will shed light on who`s theory is on the money.

in my personal opinion, its gonna be hard to beat the accuracy benchmark already achieved with this gaintwist barrel, its unfortunate that he didnt fire more bullet tho so we had a much better idea of what the true potential is.



 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

NOEL, your statement below....

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I think this might be a good opening to confirm, for bluejazz and others, that you and I have no personal connection off-line in any capacity. Bluejazz, and Kelly, can you say the same?</span></span>


Well, NOEL, ya got me!!!! I do have a connection off-line...Yep,,,a connection off-line with equipment that is leading edge. That means new calibers (375 VM) and new bullets (GS 414)

My passion in life is long range shooting and hunting. Because it's a passion I am willing to spend more than most on equipment that gets me there.

The GS 414 is drawing a lot of interest, it's drawing interest because it just may stabalize in a standard twist barrel and it looks to be real accurate, not to mention it looks to have a real high BC.

Im sorry your bullet is not doing the same. I really wished it was, cause I would love to shoot it as well and do some comparing.

In the end NOEL, it is very possible that you will have to <span style="font-weight: bold">eat your words on this site in front of everyone</span>. Please don't take this statement and think that I have something against you or the ZA bullets. I commend anyone that is willing to take risk and produce a product for the masses. I too am a business owner and I have respect for other business owners.

Back to your words.....You said....that a bullet this long <span style="font-style: italic">"will never stabilize in a standard twist barrel". </span>It is very possible that by the end of the day, you will have to eat your words. Time will tell.

Just because I seem to support the GS 414, it does not mean that I am somehow tied to gerard or anthony. Never met the guys, but am very impressed how fast they can get a bullet to market, tweek it where need be and get it back in the hands of guys like Dave Viers. This is what sets great companies apart.

And lastly, some advice from one business owner to another. From my perspective, If I was a bullet maker, I wouldn't be on another bullet makers thread saying a whole lot. Your motives could be very easily misunderstood. Funny, you don't see berger here or the other big guys.

Yea, it is an open forum for all to see. But trust me, I have said this before along with others here...The bullet will stand on it's own merrits without anybodies input. If there are any flaws in this bullet, us shooters will indeed find it.

c ya
zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Kelly,

There may be a misunderstanding here. As I told you in previous thread where "another bullet maker" was posting, you are very likely to be perfectly happy with the performance envelope of the GS375/(?)-414 grain.

I have no intention of raining upon your parade. There are <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> few marksman that can utilize the capability of the ZA375/6.5-M, <span style="font-style: italic">or</span> the ZA375/7.0-M.

My line of hunting projectiles are entirely separate, and in this case, the ZA375/6.0-W (420 grain PDT-core) is a tack driver in a 1: 8" twist. This is not an either/or proposition for you.
wink.gif


Best,
Noel
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Stop turning these ELR threads into debate matches..... it's getting old.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

KYS,

"...it's getting old."... Possibly you are drawn to threads with "debatable" content. It is not my obligation to insulate you from this.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

I dont have a dog in this fight, nor am I a good enough marksman to shoot ELR.

But as an impartial observer I have only seen one post that show the potential of either manufacturers product and that is the opening post to this thread with visible not claimed results.

It would be interesting to see projectiles from both manufacturer shot side by side on the same range at the same time.

2 totally independent marksman given 10 rounds from each manufacturer, and $500 to the marksman that shoots the best group.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Dave, thanks for some of your testing results and insight on the new GS 414s,along with Noel and others Thanks keeping us up to date with your findings and the BS to a minimum. It never fails every time I read threads from this crowd they are always full of information and I become a little more knowledged. Ive been anxious to hear some testing results from these new projectiles. I'm sure time is hard to come by and you can only progres so fast, keep it up and thanks for posting.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Ferryman, you might want to go back and read all the posts I have made sharing the results of test I have done over the last 1 1/2 yrs concerning all the various prototypes of the Za promos. The good, bad and ugly of all the test were posted for the world to see. Granted, I have not posted pictures. Frankly, I don't see a lot of value in posting a picture, really all it tells you is that someone stood in front of a target and tool a picture of holes in a target. It all boils down to the integrity of the person posting the test results. If one wishes to fabricate results, pictures will tell you nothing. Anyway if pictures are that important to the veiwers and makes a post more believable, I suppose I could take a few next time.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kelly,

There may be a misunderstanding here. As I told you in previous thread where "another bullet maker" was posting, you are very likely to be perfectly happy with the performance envelope of the GS375/(?)-414 grain.

I have no intention of raining upon your parade. There are <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> few marksman that can utilize the capability of the ZA375/6.5-M, <span style="font-style: italic">or</span> the ZA375/7.0-M.

My line of hunting projectiles are entirely separate, and in this case, the ZA375/6.0-W (420 grain PDT-core) is a tack driver in a 1: 8" twist. This is not an either/or proposition for you.
wink.gif


Best,
Noel </div></div>

My only concerned with a good bit of you posts is this shameless type of whoring out of someone else's threads to promote your products. I could be wrong but I could have sworn that the thread title was "GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test" If you really want to sell your stuff on here, go make your own thread.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Augustus

I have read this and other threads on the developments of ELR projectiles.
And I am NOT challenging your integrity.
All I am saying is that "I" would like to see the results with my own eyes of this extremely challenging project.
Forget the $500 for best group.
Each company nominate there own marksman.
A side by side shoot would show which has the great accuracy at that moment in time.
You know the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words"
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

A side by side comparison( shootout) is irrelevent at this point since one of the parties involved does not even sell his product at this time.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Blujazz, as far as I know neither party has the projos in question ready for widespread sale to the public. I do not think anyone even knows the length of the Gs414. Anyway all of the bullets in question are still in development and are not anywhere near ready to take to a match. I can tell you for certian the accuracy demonstrated by Daves test is not something one should expect to see repeated by anyone on a consistant basis no matter whose bullet is being fired. Oh, by the way I sent you a pic of the recovered projo from 2560 yds. Did you recieve it? If so you can post it for the folks if you like.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Augustus,
I did receive it, thanks. However, after looking at it, I deleted it. It was not my pic to post. However, if you resend it, I would be happy to post it for you.
Concerning my previous post,am I mistaken then to say that one of the aforemetioned parties makes and sells bullets, and the other is still in the developement of a product line?
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

I was referring to the projos that are the subject of the ELR threads.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Augustus, no offense, but you just made some statements here that are misleading and they need to be addressed...

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Blujazz, as far as I know neither party has the projos in question ready for widespread sale to the public. I do not think anyone even knows the length of the Gs414. Anyway all of the bullets in question are still in development and are not anywhere near ready to take to a match. I can tell you for certian the accuracy demonstrated by Daves test is not something one should expect to see repeated by anyone on a consistant basis no matter whose bullet is being fired.</span></span>

Augustus, where did you get the info that GS is not ready for widespread sale to the public? If you're talking about the GS 414, so long as Dave's feedback is good at 1,400 yards, GS will not take this bullet to MK3. That means this baby is ready to rock and roll. The final test should happen today or tomorrow, in all likelyhood, my order for the GS 414's goes in by tomorrow.

Your statement about the length of the GS 414, has nothing to do with production and everything to do with giving NOEL competitive info. If you were GS, would you want the competition to have this info. And yes it is still in development (probably another day or two), but there is no need to give the info to NOEL, he is the only one on this thread and another thread on this site asking for length of the GS 414 (aside from you).....Why do you think NOEL wants this info...Everyone can see right through his requests, he's the competition for God's sake!! Im going to be one the first guys buying a batch of the 414's and I really don't give a rip about length at this point.

And your statement about Dave's accuracy from his tests not being able to be duplicated? Come on man, where do you get this? Where is your basis, what logic are you using here??

In Dave's very own posts, he tells ALL that as he goes through this process, he is careful to do things that are totally duplicatable. Why, why does he do this?? Because as he builds rifles for his customers and sends them the gun, the target and load data, he wants his customers happy. All good gunsmiths do this.

Dave is not using a shooting vice, he's not recreating the wheel when he shoots, he simply uses the same techniques in loading and in shooting that the rest of us use. So do I expect to duplicate Dave's test? Of course, why not? The only real limiting factor will be wind, outside of that, I fully expect to duplicate these awesome groups. And everyone else should as well.

Your statements here seem to be talking about both GS and ZA and you are grouping them together. Just because ZA is in chapter one, it doesn't mean that the GS 414 is in chapter one. Hell, the GS 414 is on the last page of the last chapter here.

Your statements that lack logic, fact and basis lead me to believe that A. you are just not in tuned to what's going on here (in which case, you just need to be educated) or B. There is a darker motive. I really do hope is not the latter.

Most of the readers here really don't wish to see bias dialog on the threads. They want to see no BS data on shooting so they can incorporate it into their shooting lives. When others make statements that seem to be bias, we need to call that out and get back to facts. Please ask questions rather than making blanket statements.

And lastly about lead times of the new GS 414...I don't mean to talk for GS, Anthony or Gerard here. But I have spoken with Anthony at length about lead times. I expect the lead times to be longer right now, not because of production, but because they have to ship over seas. Once their new facility comes on line here state side, I expect these lead times to improve greatly. Again, I can't talk for Anthony here, but if folks want to know more, they can PM Anthony.

cheers,
zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Well shooter, You just stated they are still testing the Gs 414, one woud not expect it to be offered to the public until all testing is complete and all info regarding demensions, Bc etc. Is published. If they are for sale, I would like to purchase a few. How much are they wantingC for them and when can I expect delivery.

In response to your question as to where I get the notion that shooting .15 moa groups at 1150 yds may be hard to do on a consistant basis. The answer is that notion comes from forty or so yrs of shooting and watching others shoot. You may want to review the world records at 1000 yds. These records may give you an indication that .15moa at 1150 yds is not a routine occurance.

Your statement that everyone should expect .15 moa at extended ranges is preposterous.
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

Augustus,
GS, is not going to take any orders until testing is complete. As I said, I expect to order my bullets very shortly. As stated in this thread many times, we are simply waiting on Dave.

I am not speaking for GS here, these are my words...If I was them, I wouldn't be hot to sell any of my new bullets to Noel or anyone that is connected to him. Again, these are my words, not theirs. Frankly, Im not sure if you are or are not connected to Noel offline. If you are not, I would be surprised.

Regarding records, Im well aware of world records. However, you are mixing apples and oragnes here. Dave's group is not a 5 or 10 shot group. He put two bullets real close. Dave said himself that if he shot 5 or 10 bullets he fully expected the group would spread. He also said out of all the years he has been shooting, this bullet seams to hold the most promise.

Do I expect that this bullet will shoot a 10 or even 5 shot group at .15 moa at 1,000 yards?? Come on really now....

On the other hand, can I expect to land 2 bullets like Dave did at 1,150 yards...Is it really that Preposterous?????

I will post my results later this summer, time will tell. In the end, I agree with Dave, this bullet seams to be real accurate. If the 1,400 yard test is a success, it will be enough for me to cut an 8 twist barrel to specifically shoot this bullet.

zman
 
Re: GS Custom 414gn MK 2 Bullet Test

What planet have you been on. Of course I have an off line relationship with Noel, he has my phone no. He also has my address for the purposes of sending prototypes. I have never met Noel in person and have no interest in his bullets other than to shoot them and share the results. I would be happy to do the same for anyone else.