GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

shoot1760

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I have been in the process of testing the GS414gr solid, GS425gr HV and the Cutting Edge 350gr hunting, 377gr MTAC, 402gr MTAC. I'm using a 375 Snipe Tac in two 32 inch Brux barrel twists...1-10 & 1-8.25.
My initial tests were all with the heavier bullets using the 1-8.25 twist. The smaller Cutting Edge 350's will be tested after my other 1-10 twist rifle is complete next week.

Dave Viers is the creater of the 375 Snipe Tac and although he did not build my rifles, he has provided many of the components in the process. I would encourage anybody who wants to build a snipe tac to look him up...http://www.blackdiamondrifles.com/

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">The GS414 & GS425HV bullets</span></span>....I ordered these bullets for load development to be completed last summer. They were 2 months late on delievery (shipped from S Africa). By the time I received them, it was hunting season and I had very little time for load development. I did not get a chance to take the bullets out past 1,000 yards like Dave Viers did, but I will share my initial results.

For the 425gr HV's, I started my loads at 142grains of US869 and increased the loads by 1 grain increments all the way up to 150 grains. At 150 grains, I saw my first pressure signs and at 500 yards the bullets were unstable creating football shaped holes, this was just over 3,000 fps. I backed down the charge to 146 grains and got my best groups (1 minute). At this point I didn't go much further bc I didn't like the groups. My next step was to try 50BMG powder.

GS only sent me a handful of the new GS414's. I only tested a few of them at 100 yards and they seemed to like 146 grains of US869. I saw pressure signs at 150 grains so I backed them down again to 146. My next step here was to take them out to 1,000 plus yards, but the longer lead times of the GS bullets discouraged me from completing my test.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Cutting Edge bullets</span></span>......Right off the bat, I am very impressed with Dan at Cutting Edge. When I told him what I was doing, he sent me 50 each of the 350's, 377's & 402's for the 375 Snipe Tac for testing.
3 days later the Cutting Edge bullets showed up at my door step. All of the bullets were individually packed insuring that each bullet was protected from dings during shipment.
My starting load with the CE402 MTAC was 142grs of US869, and I increased the load by 1 grain increments all the way to 150grs. I seated them for a .020 jump with the seating band just kissing the top of the case.
At 145grs and 146gr I saw 1/4 inch 2 shot groups at 100 yards initially. As I shot 3 & 4 shot groups for validation, the 145 & 146 grain spread out to between 1 inch & 1 1/4.
I saw some similar results with the 377grain bullets. My next step is to switch powders to 50BMG to see if I can get the ES down to single digits to get better groups and consistancy...............
More to come next week!!

zman
 

Jimmym40a2

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Awesome. Care to post pictures of your rig? Bullets? Etc. Thanks
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Dan is sending me another batch of 402gr MTAC's, I will try to post some pic's next week,,Hopefully I will have some target fotos also...

cheers
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

It's looking like 8 twist is on the edge for the 400 cutting edge????
I hope the next batch work out.
 

steve123

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Thanks for sharing your initial results.

The .375 350 Jamisons and Lehigh 330's don't group but 1-1.5 MOA at 100-200Y in my 375CT.They seem to go to sleep from 300 to 400Y then shoot extremely well,especially the Jamisons at sub 1/2 MOA on occasion.

I discovered this after the 3rd frustrating attempt of working up a load at 200Y.I gave up and was going to send the rifle back to Lawton but decided to shoot at 400Y to use up the rest of the rounds I had loaded up.Guess what? 2.5" groups at 200Y and 2.5" groups at 400Y.

It's now been close to 4 years since I got my 375CT.Seems to me like those trying to make a Super high BC 375 projectile are struggling with a extremely critical balance of dynamics to achieve a slightly higher BC.I think the better solution would be a larger caliber,heavier projectile and more powder.At the same time I hope to be proved wrong.
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Ta

Steve,

Your four year wait for an exceptionally high BC projectile that maintains accuracy, across the obtainable velocity spread, will prove justified this Fall.

The limiting factor has *always* been the rifling geometry... and the solution is primarily, but not exclusively, the exit twist-rate. I am not suggesting that a faulty projectile design can be overcome by a good barrel, but the results that people in this game are looking for will not be obtained without one.

The greatest opening to progress in this arena is overcoming the inertia of preconceived performance standards. It was less than a year ago that at least one of the players was unaware of velocity limitations on projectile design altogether... now they claim to configure to specific velocity regimes.

Progress is inevitable, and some will be dragged against their will.
 

shoot1760

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Steve,
You mays be right on the money! After I shot last week I spoke with Dan at Cutting Edge and he said that they don't do any load development on these big bullets at 100 yards because the bullets need time to stabilize. Dave Viers pretty much says the same thing.

My only problem with load develoment at mid ranges (300-400 yds) is wind and how it can mess with your groups. So I like to shoot few at 100 to find the node.

In the morning, Im shooing again with 50BMG looking for tighter velocity spreads..After that, I will take the best group out to 825 yards and if I like what I see, I will take them out to 1,280 yards and beyond.....

More to come.........By the way,,are you shooting a 10 twist in your 375??
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Steve: have you tried those rebated boat-tail 370s that Rocky Mountain makes? I'm considering them for the brand new .375 CT that I am supposed to get next month. I'm also wondering if you've got any info on the standard deviation of velocity spreads using Ramshot "Magnum" powder? I've also speculated that lower velocities might overcome the grouping problems at shorter ranges? Of course, lower velocities kinda defeat the purpose of the CheyTac as an ultra long range weapon.
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Ok, today was a better day at the range....I ran out of 402gr test bullets, so Dan from Cutting Edge is sending me more. Consequently, I took the 377 gr MTAC's and tried them with 50BMG to see if they'd group better and they did.

I loaded them for a .020 jump with 142 grains of 50BMG. First three shot group was .059 and the 2nd group was .038 at 100 yards. I really didn't expect to see these better groups because these long bullets don't have time to stabilize at 100 yards. In morning (weather permitting) I will take these bullets past 1,000 yards.

On a side note, I shot 2 seperate 3 shot groups at 144 grains of 50BMG and they were just over 1/2 inch at 100. When I get some more bullets I will try this load as well.

More to come..............
 

Donald

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Thats great news how fast were the the 377gr going at 142grs and 144grs???
 

shoot1760

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

I don't trust cronos' but, the average speed was about 2960 with 142grs and 3000 fps with 144grs..When I get more bullets from Dan, I will try both sweet spots, but for now I will take the ones with 142 grs past 1,000 and see they do. Augustus did not have success with these bullets with his 8 twist, but my barrel is a brux and that may make all the difference in the world. We will see.

cya
 

steve123

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve: have you tried those rebated boat-tail 370s that Rocky Mountain makes? I'm considering them for the brand new .375 CT that I am supposed to get next month. I'm also wondering if you've got any info on the standard deviation of velocity spreads using Ramshot "Magnum" powder? I've also speculated that lower velocities might overcome the grouping problems at shorter ranges? Of course, lower velocities kinda defeat the purpose of the CheyTac as an ultra long range weapon. </div></div>

Sorry been busy the last few days.

I ordered a small quantity to try,got a load worked up and haven't shot the rest at ELR distance yet to see how they do.IIRC they work best with a 10 twist.Mine is a 11.5LRB but I live at 7000 alt so they might work fine.I'm selling the rifle so that might not ever happen.
 

steve123

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot1760</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,
You mays be right on the money! After I shot last week I spoke with Dan at Cutting Edge and he said that they don't do any load development on these big bullets at 100 yards because the bullets need time to stabilize. Dave Viers pretty much says the same thing.

My only problem with load develoment at mid ranges (300-400 yds) is wind and how it can mess with your groups. So I like to shoot few at 100 to find the node.

In the morning, Im shooing again with 50BMG looking for tighter velocity spreads..After that, I will take the best group out to 825 yards and if I like what I see, I will take them out to 1,280 yards and beyond.....

More to come.........By the way,,are you shooting a 10 twist in your 375??

</div></div>

I tried to pick calm days and observe the amount of vertical when I did my load work at 400Y.The groups were still pretty round because that class of projectiles isn't affected by wind near as much as the normal cartridges bullets at 400Y.

11.5 twist.

I never tried 50BMG.How's the load density with it?
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

I took the 377 gr MTAC's to 825 yards today. 142 grains of 50BMG, .020 jump. I fired a fowler at another target...and put the next 3 in a 3.5 inch group just a few inches low of dead center...We had some wind, but I only doped for 1 MOA right....By this time the brux barrel was getting hot and instead of waiting, I sent two more at the target. Both went right over the top.
I let the barrel cool and took the shells out of the hot sun and put them in my cooler. I came back and tried again....The first one hit low, but the next 3 were on the money with about a 6 inch group this time....As the barrel heated, I tried another to see if it would shoot high, and it did again, about 2 moa.
I would not think that my groups would go to crap so fast, so I will compare them to the 402's as soon as I get them.
I didn't post the foto cause this forum likes to see 5 shot groups...
Steve, 142 grains of 50BMG does not max out the case. There is pleany of room. In fact at 144 grs, there is still room for powder and I did't see any real pressure issues either. Although it definately kicks more....


cya
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Some mixed results there????what are your thoughts on why this happened?
What is the <span style="text-decoration: underline">length</span> of the 377gr and the 402gr?? cutting edge bullets the GSC 414gr is quoted as being 2.38 long?
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

you're right on the money, just measured 4 of em. 2.382" +/- .0015" is what my calipers read. I got everything I need, just waiting on the gun now. I haven't shot any so I'm keeping my mouth shut either way about them. I also got some 800gr .50's and 167gr.30's in SP as well that I'm gonna throw in my .308 and 300 Win Mag. Everyone hates waiting, but if these 414's turn out to do what they're supposed to I'll just order thousands at a time.
I will say this though, the customer service has been great anyone has any questions about GSC at all call Anthony. Great guy to talk to with a lot of information.
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Rocky mountain, Im not sure what to think about the mixed results...I know that Dan at Cutting Edge really did not expect the smaller 377's to stabilize in the 8 twist. He thought it would be better in my 10 twist.

I need to go back and hang a plywood target with cardboard to see if these 377's are creating perfect holes or footballing like the 425 GS bullets were doing. I kind of got ahead of myself here. If they're not footballing, I need to go back and shoot some more groups at closer ranges to see if they're consistant.
My 402's should be here in the morning and when I get them, Im going to play around with them first. I haven't measured the 377's, but the 402's are just a tad shorter than the GS414's.
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Average Freak,,,What twist barrel are you going with???


zman
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Zman,

You need to recover some of the 377 grain Cutting Edge projectiles. As unlikely as it may be, it sounds like they are failing to reliably trace the rifling in the 8.25" twist. If the engraving surface of the 402 is similar then the problem will get worse.

This design is conservative enough that you should have no problems related to gyroscopic stability from the rifle that you are using *provided* that the "seal tight" band remains engaged. The GSC 414 is having trouble for other reasons.
 
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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

I fired the 377s and the 402s from my 6.5 exit twist with very good results so the 8.25 is not too fast for them.
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Zman,

How many grooves does your Brux barrel have?
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

I tested the 400 gain Cutting Edge MTH exp2 today at 200 yards....at 144 grains of 50bmg the 3 shot ES was 12, at 145 grains the ES was 10 with a 1/2 moa group and at 146 grains the ES was 8 with less than a 1/2 moa 3 shot group....This bullet likes 50BMG much better than US869.
Next week I will shoot the same load with the 402 MTAC's and then take them to 1,400 and post the results...

zman
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Ta

LC,

Are you saying that this is the test barrel being used?
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot1760</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tested the 400 gain Cutting Edge MTH exp2 today at 200 yards....at 144 grains of 50bmg the 3 shot ES was 12, at 145 grains the ES was 10 with a 1/2 moa group and at 146 grains the ES was 8 with less than a 1/2 moa 3 shot group....This bullet likes 50BMG much better than US869.
Next week I will shoot the same load with the 402 MTAC's and then take them to 1,400 and post the results...

zman </div></div>

Those are very pleasing results will be very interesting how she goes at 1400 yards keep us posted.
How fast were the 400s going at 146grs of 50BMG with that nice ES of 8
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Ta

nope, maybe testing for my own amusement, but it will still be a month or two before I get the dies and get the ball rolling.
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Rocky Mtn...at 146grains I was seeing 3,000 fps and some change....Im also going to load 147 grains cause I didnt really see any pressure signs...as I increased the powder charge the ES continued to get smaller...Its possible I could see the spread go from 8 to 6 or so, so I will try it.

I know that when I did this with US869 and the GS 414 bullets I didn't see pressure signs until 150 grains..I hope to have some results late next week..

cya
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

Any updates on the cutting edge 400gr using 50BMG at the longer ranges yet??
 

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Re: GS414 vs Cutting Edge 402 bullet (375 Snipe Tac)

It's been almost 6 months since I last posted on the Cutting Edge bullets. Initially, both the 8.25 twist and the 10 twist were shooting awesome groups, but as I continued to shoot, both barrels became inconsistant.
So we went back to the drawing board and plugged both barrels. One measured 3 to 4 ten thousands over bore and the other measured 4 to 5 ten thousands over bore. My gun smith says he's never had a barrel shoot well with these kinds of spcecs.
We also checked the run out and it was out several thousands. So I had Dave V send me another set of dies for the 375 and Brux barrels was gracious enough to send me two new barrels free of charge. One of the new 10 twist barrels measured right on the money. The other was over bore again, so we set it aside.
Hunting season kind of kept me side tracked until now. But Im back at it again. The new 10 twist barrel is ready to go and as soon as the snow melts I expect to break in the new barrel and try the new cutting edge 350's. I will post my load results as soon as it warms up a bit.

zman