Handloading for Distance versus Precision

[JoeBUtah]

I'm a relative new guy to the world of precision/long range shooting, and have been reloading/handloading for a couple of years.

As all of us know this age of high speed communications and the amount of information available can be overwhelming to say the very least.

My question(s) to this forum are an attempt to filter out some of the baggage and get to the core of what I want to do: Hit a 10" to 14" steel plate with my Remington 5R .308 at 600-800 yards. If I can squeeze 1,000 out of it great. So what does a guy need to have in order to accomplish this with respect to handloading dies?

I have read the arguments supporting full length versus neck only and vice versa. Comp dies, bullet tension, neck turning, bushing size bullet jump, concentricity, head space, crimps etc; everybody has their rap, and I appreciate them all. But right now, I'm not looking to rip a cloverleaf in paper at 100 yds; as the song goes, I want to bang a gong!

How much of the high precision handloading processes do I need to follow to accomplish my immediate goal?

 

[RotARy15]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

That goal can be accomplished with basic dies, following basic case prep, and finding a decent node.

You don't need to play with concentricity, or neck turning. Whatever bullet tension you get as long as it holds the bullet will work. No crimping needed.

I neck size just because it sometimes leads to longer case life and the lee collet die doesn't require the lubing process.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

I'll stick my head up. Please don't take it off. I started to get "all fussy", about my reloading. I figured out how easy it is to drive yourself Nuts! I go as far as is reasonable, for my "timetable". I got a set of competition dies, from RCBS, make sure the reformed brass fits in the gun, and "put her together" I've got a 5R, and she likes ,37.3gr. Viht 135, behind a 168 gr. BTHP. for my "cruiser" load for 100 yd. My "hot load" is 44.7 Varget, and a 168. COL at 2.9 appr. I say appr., cause I'm still playin with it, when I have the time. Usually, i just make em 2.8, and they shoot in the 3/4-1" range, all day long, at 100, on a good day.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Two good posts right above this one about not getting too caught up in BR procedures regarding your reloading. Some folks work themselves into a near frenzy about being anal with their reloading and if that is what they feel comfortable with then it's working for them. But realistically just doing the basics with having a decent set of dies, trimmed cases and a load that will group in the 3/4" area at 100 yards you are well in the ballpark for shooting long range matches.

As your skills increase and you find you need more accuracy you can play with your reloading to tweak tighter groups. The nut behind the trigger is still the main factor in shooting long range targets. Talking to a fella at our local 1000 yard matches that usually wins every month don't even weigh his powder charges, drops them from an RCBS Uniflow measure but does use good bullets. Give a great shooter a decent gun and he'll beat ya nearly every time over an average shooter with the very best equipment.

Me and my son have 4 260 Remingtons guns, two long range XP-100 pistols and two Savage rifles and all shoot the identical load extremely well. Maybe each gun could be tweaked with individual loads but this makes it a lot easier and every gun shoots plenty good enough to hit an 8" plate at 1000 yards when we do our part.

Some shooters enjoy the never ending tweaking of their loads and strive for that one hole group but I'd rather be ringing steel when I've found loads and equipment that will do the job as needed. Yes, having the smallest group possible with your equipment will help hit the smallest highest value target way out there but with all the other factors that affect your shots we've found a point that Good enough is Good enough.

Good luck, find your Happy Spot where you view this as an enjoyable hobby and not one that frustrates you every time you sit at the reloading bench or behind your gun at the range.

Topstrap

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeBUtah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My question(s) to this forum are an attempt to filter out some of the baggage and get to the core of what I want to do: Hit a 10" to 14" steel plate with my Remington 5R .308 at 600-800 yards. If I can squeeze 1,000 out of it great. So what does a guy need to have in order to accomplish this with respect to handloading dies?


</div></div>

I too am a "5R" owner. I started out with just basic dies and some new Winchester brass. With 175gr Nosler Custom Competition bullets, 43.5 gr of Varget and Wolf Primers I was able to shoot 1/2-3/4" groups at 100 yards. More than accurate enough to "bang a gong" at 600-800 yards depending on how well I do my part (like doping the wind, etc).

I did find that I got a major boost in accuracy when I put some shim/risers on the aluminum action block and then bedded the action as well as 2" ahead of the recoil lug using Devcon 10110. Just finished the job and the last session at the range gave me consistent groups of less than 1/2", even when the barrel heated up. Prior to that after 20 rounds or so the groups would string horizontally. A close inspection of the action block showed uneven contact which the bedding job eliminated totally.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

All the above posts are good information.
I too agree with bedding the V-Block stock..Every one of mine shot much better after doing so.

Standard reloading dies and equipment will get the job done.

Spend your money on bullets.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Pretty easy to get wrapped around the axle with reloading......

Decent brass, FL size, bump the shoulder a thousandth or two, pick a GOOD bullet, find a GOOD node, put the bulk of your invested time into accurate powder measuring and reducing runout.

Lots of ways to make it harder than that though, if that's what tickles your titties.......

 

[JoeBUtah]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Man... I love this forum!

And I love to handload, and I know I'll be tweaking things as I go. A good set of dies, powder and boolits.... Check....

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

I forgot to add this GREAT piece of advice, from an old Marine, who shot next to me one day, and showed me how to do it right. He said"Lay off the coffee!"

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Finding a load that shoots 1/2 inch at 100 is easy, finding a load that has single digit SD/ES and is accurate at 1000 is hard, my advice is to work toward an accurate single digit ES/SD long range load while honing in your short range shooting by shooting dot drills, in the end your gonna figure out a good LR load shoots great at SR because your shooting skills have improved.

 

[Raider Power]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joshboucher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to add this GREAT piece of advice, from an old Marine, who shot next to me one day, and showed me how to do it right. He said"Lay off the coffee!" </div></div>

Ive learned that one the hard way. I couldn't figure out why some days I could go out and shoot bug hole groups and then another day shooting the exact same ammo I could barely hold moa. Then I noticed how bad my hand was shaking from all the caffeine I had earlier in the day.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joshboucher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to add this GREAT piece of advice, from an old Marine, who shot next to me one day, and showed me how to do it right. He said"Lay off the coffee!"</div></div>

Old wives tale, and utter BS...

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

A good friend of mine that shot long range Handgun Metallic Silhouette since the very early days shared this story on something similiar to the coffee story. I'll skip thru all the "how he found out" how a beer, coffee or even a can of pop affected his shooting. This fella is one of the Worlds top long range pistol shooters and has made the 100 and 140 club every year since it started until recently because of his eyesight fading a bit with age. He's also won at least one new pickup, possibly two and also numerous four wheelers and other large prizes by winning the Buckmasters with a handgun and is why they no longer have a handgun class.

He still says a beer or anything with caffine would affect him for days after drinking one and with his track record his accomplishments speak for their self. He's also an ex Green Beret but typical of men of that caliber he's quiet and has never bragged about his accomplishments but was willing to always pass along what he's learned.

Some may scoff at the notion of a coffee, cigarette, pop or a beer affecting a body but I think the higher level of skill you have the more you can notice small things affecting your nervous system. Just wanted to add this bit of info, some may laugh and call it nonsense but when you are told this by someone of this skill level I think it's worth listening to.

Topstrap

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

It's about pattern changes, and it was originally put in the context of a sniper during extended missions when you can't smoke or drink, when you normally would.

It's about consistency, if you take a smoker and then on match day, tell them not to have a cigarette,you'll see a physical issue. If you don't use caffeine, then using it, will create an issue. The don't drink something with caffeine is for people who dont normally do it.

Anyone who knows me knows I never not have a coffee in my hand, and my shooting is unaffected because that is my "normal" routine.

They used to say, no eye glasses, no lefties, etc.

I think people use it as an excuse for a bad day, blame the coffee, it's easier than blaming yourself.

Beer has the opposite effect, it relaxes the shooter, as it is a depressant. Unless you're an alcoholic, then it can damage the nervous system.

One off old wives tales, just because one person abstained from stimulants doesn't mean it effects everyone the same. I have heard of instructors telling police snipers to log it in the data book if they got to Starbucks for breakfast, doesnt get any dumber.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Performance at a given distance begins with understanding how much energy is required to defeat that particular target. It's not a question of the equipment used to craft the ammo, or of optimizing a load that's outside the 'normal' and 'comfortable' pressure range for that chambering.

If the firearm and chambering combination is inadequate when working within a normal and customary load spec, then you need a more capable chambering. Tweaking the load upward simply adds more factors of difficulty to the basic equation.

You choose the chambering to fit the energy requirement, you choose eveything else to achieve accuracy in the process.

In my personal view, necking down a cartridge to allow a higher BC bullet of a comparable weight makes more sense than increasing chambering capacity to up the energy ante.

For example, I would neck a .308 down to make a .260 rather than going with a .30-'06 or even a 6.5-284. Likewise, I would neck a .30-'06 down to make a .280 Rem (7mm-'06), rather than going with a .300WM or a 7mm Rem Mag.

While upgrading from a .308 to .30-'06 is a very acceptable option, and I am a big fan of the .30-'06; the other approaches appeal to me a bit more for sustained fire applications. Less overall mayhem is involved. This translates (for me) into a less stressed shooter, and a more efficient energy utilization.

Greg

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Long Range Shooting.... I`m filmilar with and compete in "F" class in the unlimited class....
The "X" ring on a 1000 yd. target is 5" in diameter.
You need a gun that will shoot 1/4" at 100 yds.Which equates to 2-1/2" at 1000 yds..
S.D and E.S are good for reference.... but not always the best load for LR.
google some of gerry tiereny`s articles on the subject.Most guys I know weigh powder on high dollar digital scales.
test your groups at 300+yds.
bill larson

 

[Ramius]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

You guys are no fun. We were supposed to make him buy voodoo dolls and wear a pink tutu when reloading on Tuesdays.

Other than test your loads at 300 instead of 100, pick a powder, use good bullets, go out and have fun.

Oh yeah, keep good records so you can chart your progress.

 

[takeaim1st]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Well, There ya go , a stimulant will not stimulate you when you are shooting. My thoughts exactly, the joe don't shake you off , hell it shakes ya on, it's all about squeezing the round off when ya shake on.

 

[plh]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

I negate the shakes of caffeine with equal but opposite tremors from chewing tobacco; finely tuned and adjusted for enjoyment.

 

[Rthur]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Consistency is the name of the game. However great ammo will not get you there without consistency behind the trigger. My buddy's 5r seems to shoot fed gmm 175s well. Try them and see if your's likes them. Once you run through 500 or so you'll have some brass to reload and have your rifle broke in. I'll bet that this factory ammo will fill your needs.

good luck Rthur

 

[Mike Sobr]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

Devil's advocate but until a great local shooter took time out to teach me how to dope wind and pay attention to minor wind direction and velocity changes all my endless hours of trying to make perfect concentric ammo weighed out to the single kernel of powder was all wasted and I could have shot better using factory Lapua ammo if I paid more attention to the wind like I try to do now.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Handloading for Distance versus Precision

First things first, one of the many beautiful about 308 Win is that you don't have to do that much to make it fly well. Find a bullet it likes, with a powder/chrg it likes, and COAL it prefers, and you're good to go. Bolt guns benefit greatly from neck sizing. I use the inexpensive Lee collet neck sizing die. (Actually all my dies are Lee because they work, work well, and don't cost an arm and a leg) Don't neck size for anything else....bolt guns only. DON'T get sucked into the ultra fine tuning, neck turning, etc. And who cares if Joe Blow is pushing super speed. If it can't group at 100, it won't group at 1000. Stick with the basics.

With so many choices out there....you gotta do some homework. I'm pretty much a Sierra guy because I've found them to be less picky about COAL. With what you've got, I'd go 168-175gr SMK with Varget or something close. I have the Rem 700 SPS Varmint (poor mans gun) but I've sounded the gong at 850ish. So I'm satisfied that given the extra room, I could ring it.