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hBN my observations and thoughts

Heman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2009
224
1
46
Ohio
Ok first I will say I am not LEO or Military sniper so my shooting applications are different. I shoot NRA across the course, mid/long range prone, along with just the regular range shooting, etc. I started shooting in 2007. In late 2008 I came on to hBN after a friend of mine who is a LEO firearms insstructor who also shoots NRA matches talked about it. So for the 2009, and 2010 seasons I shot hBN in all my match firearms (.308, .30-06, .260, .280, .243) along with using it for my vintage firearms. In 2011 I quit using it and this year I have gone to molly. I just wanted to share my observations and what my thoughts are on hBN, versus naked bulelts, versus Molly. Being a physics/chemistry teacher I usually like to have numerical data to support my findings/feelings but in this case I don't have that and just going on my observations.

Feel: I can not definitely say that hBN feels slicker than naked. Before I used molly I thought they did however after having molly coated bulelts I'm not sure there is any difference. However not as slick as molly.

Seating force: I have noticed that while they feel slightly slicker hBN bullets seem to seat a little harder than naked or moly coated bullets. I have many .260 bullets 123 SMK and 142 SMK where the seating die deformed the nose of the bullet. Using the same die seating depth and brass the naked bullets slide in easier and the molly bullets even easier. The deforming wasn't noticed on the .22cal, 7mm, or .30 cal bullets. This observation leads me to think that hBN isn't reducing friction such as molly .

Pulling bullets: I have noticed that bullets that have been seated with hBN require more force to pull than naked or molly coated bullets. I was pulling some 175SMKs out of .30-40 Krag loads and the amount of force it took was substantially more. These loads had been sitting around since 2008. To just test I seated a naked 175 SMK and a moly coated 175 SMK and just like seating preasure hBN required the most to pull followed by naked and then molly.

Preasure and velocity in loaded ammo: When going to molly vs. naked I experienced the usual need to increase the powder due to the preasure decreasing because of the lower amount of friction on the bullet/barrel. If I shoot the same charge with molly as naked the chrono numbers are slower and I need more elevation. This WAS NOT observed with hBN versus naked. My zero's and my velocities remaned the same, and in some cases teh velocities may have increased. I can't substantiate this but do remember having numbers that were higher at times with hBN vs. naked but at that time I attributed it to increased temperature, although if it was we are only talking 5 degrees 10 at the most. From this observation Molly does decrease preasure however hBN seems to have no effect if not increasing it possibly due to possible higher friction.

Cleaning: Naked I do get guilding metal in the barrel and you do have to work to get it out. However the guns shoot well and I have gone awhile with leaving it in there. With hBN I didn't have much copper but I had the gray residue from the hBN cleaned out fairly simple. Molly I just have left my barrels go as it takes 10 rounds or so to settle them in from clean. The sulfuric acid fear from talking to several people who shoot it is unfounded and one person who lives in Georgia where you have high humidity says he has never had barrels ate away because of it. Overall my philosohpy on cleaning has become if it is still shooting good just let it go. After a couple of matches then I will clean it.

All of the evidence together for hBN: With all of my observations I tend to think that hBN is actually increasing friction due to what I've noticed with no velocity to slightly higher velocity readings vs. naked. Bullet deformation when seating and increased force when pulling. The barrels weren't as dirty, but if teh friction is increased then every bullet is essentially lapping the metal causing increased barrel wear and reduced life. Evidence for this is a Hart .243 barrel I had where the throat moved out to where I couldn't touch it after 700 rounds or so of mainly hBN coated bullets.

Becasue of this evidence I'm removing the hBN from all my bullets that are still coated.

Take this for what it is worth as I am not trying to pass it off as an offical scientific test, but merely trying to give what I've noticed over the past 4 years shooting and loading many 1000s of rounds of ammo.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

It's an interesting conclusion and not to marginalize your observations but physics tell a completely different story so a review of your process would be needed to see what factors are different in your set-up vs. the other set-ups where hBN is a benefit.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

From a physics stand point the velocity on a bullet is generated by preasure. If somthing reduces friction then preasure should go down thus velocity should go down. From all indication the friction on the hBN bullets have gone up. The deformation on the 6.5 is unique to them and thus probably due to the die and bullet shapes but all bullets pull out harder especially after they have been loaded for awhile. I followed the NECO method for using hBN. I know other shooters who have tried it and noticed non of the preasure reducing benefits also typically associated with Molly. But again maybe I did somthing wrong but I didn't see anything worthwhile in trying to continue using it.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From a physics stand point the velocity on a bullet is generated by preasure. If somthing reduces friction then preasure should go down thus velocity should go down. From all indication the friction on the hBN bullets have gone up. The deformation on the 6.5 is unique to them and thus probably due to the die and bullet shapes but all bullets pull out harder especially after they have been loaded for awhile. I followed the NECO method for using hBN. I know other shooters who have tried it and noticed non of the preasure reducing benefits also typically associated with Molly. But again maybe I did somthing wrong but I didn't see anything worthwhile in trying to continue using it. </div></div>

I agree with what you said, but I guess I wasn't specific enough. I meant the physics of hBN contributing to lower friction in the boundary layers of sliding members in general. In lay-man's terms (I'm a tribologist) hBN in the micro world works a lot like graphite in that it 'sheds' little plates off as it slides. The hBN itself is pretty hard but because it's happy to break down and shed plates the µ (kinetic and static) is lowered significantly. I didn't mean to sound like you're wrong in my first post, I meant to say that there are a nearly limitless number of factors that could be at play in making your experience with hBN different from mine. My 6.5 bullets tend to deform a little right around the ogive (where I assume yours do) but it's not because of the hBN, it's because the seating die isn't shaped to match the sharp 6.5 bullet and my expander die leaves about .004" tension which is slightly more than I would like. In short I don't think hBN is your problem it may be a contributor in some way but I don't see how hBN could be a factor in increasing friction which is why I think we'd need to break down your routine and see where it differs from the successful routines.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

Just an observation of mine. In my old .243 when I switched from moly 115 DTACS to BN when they stopped the moly I was expecting to have to add some powder because the BN was supposed to be more slippery than the moly. I was surprised that I gained 30fps with the same load and had to drop .3grns of powder to get the BN down to the moly load.

Not sure it's relavent but it's what happened to me.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

High Binder, sorry for missunderstanding what you were saying. When I first noticed the deforming of the 123's and 142's I first thought there was somthing wrong with my seating die in that it had gotten damaged. As the naked bullets I shot in the 2008 and early 09 seasons did not have this ring. So I tried lightly pressing on the die, etc and the deformation ring existed no matter what I did. Just on a hunch I still had some nake 123's so I seated them using the exact same process as I was with the hBN coated bullets and they did not dent. Still using the same die and the bullets now molly coated just slide in there real nice and easy. Since I sent my last respons I just pulled rest the 175's out of my Krag loads most hBN and some naked. The hBN bullets pulled hard the naked bullets didnt.

I also examined the inside of the necks and you do see some markings on the brass with the hBN bullets that you don't see with the naked bullets as if the brass is being gouged by the hBN.

Now this along with what Rob01 posted goes along with what I'm talking about and noticed that hBN while it may be a lubricant is not working like Molly for some reason. Like Rob01 just posted if anything its working opposite of its intended purpose.

This whole hBN thing is rather confusing and I would like to
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">High Binder, sorry for missunderstanding what you were saying. When I first noticed the deforming of the 123's and 142's I first thought there was somthing wrong with my seating die in that it had gotten damaged. As the naked bullets I shot in the 2008 and early 09 seasons did not have this ring. So I tried lightly pressing on the die, etc and the deformation ring existed no matter what I did. Just on a hunch I still had some nake 123's so I seated them using the exact same process as I was with the hBN coated bullets and they did not dent. Still using the same die and the bullets now molly coated just slide in there real nice and easy. Since I sent my last respons I just pulled rest the 175's out of my Krag loads most hBN and some naked. The hBN bullets pulled hard the naked bullets didnt.

I also examined the inside of the necks and you do see some markings on the brass with the hBN bullets that you don't see with the naked bullets as if the brass is being gouged by the hBN.

Now this along with what Rob01 posted goes along with what I'm talking about and noticed that hBN while it may be a lubricant is not working like Molly for some reason. Like Rob01 just posted if anything its working opposite of its intended purpose.

This whole hBN thing is rather confusing and I would like to </div></div>


Hmm, I work in lab (chemist/tribologist) and would love to take a look at one of the cases that has the marks as well as one of your hBN coated bullets and maybe a tablespoon or so of your hBN, would you be willing to send that stuff to me to look at/test. What size of hBN are you using? Is it possible you're hBN is "wet" or contaminated?
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

Not sure I would want to use hBN now. Haven't been too enthusiastic about Moly either. Any other coatings you'd recommend?
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

Well I got it from Lower Friction and it was the smallest size they were selling. I looked at teh cases again, it was more like a linear streak. Pm me your email address and I'll send you a picture of the cases and we can go from there.

As far as coatings I quit using hBN and was just shooting naked. However I went to molly because John Whidden recomended it as one of the steps he does with his .243's to run the 105's up around 3300fps. So since I was using molly with the .243 I went ahead and did it with my other match rifles. If it wasn't for this I'd probably have just shot naked bullets.
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Pm me your email address and I'll send you a picture of the cases and we can go from there. </div></div>

PM sent
 
Re: hBN my observations and thoughts

I used to use Moly but went away from it a number of years ago as I was having corrision issues in my barrels.
I was hunting alot in wet & cold/humid conditions which I believe lead to the corrosion.
I changed to HBN & it isn't as slippery as moly as pressures went up and with some of my loads enough to see it in the brass.
I will continue to use HBN in all my rifles, I clean them very infrequently, usually only if accuracy drops away.
My 204, 22-243, 260 & 308 have had many hundreds of rounds through them without cleaning & still shoot sub moa.
My 338s are the same they just haven't had quite so many through them
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I just really don't like cleaning......
 
So I know this post is old, but how
did you remove the hbn coating from your bullets? I'm interested in the process because I too have had problems with it. Thanks!!
 
So I know this post is old, but how
did you remove the hbn coating from your bullets? I'm interested in the process because I too have had problems with it. Thanks!!

You send them to me and I'll remove the coating via a highly advanced friction method, i.e. I'll use them for plinking.