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Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

L

lovetsx

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 23, 2009
210
2
kentucky
I need some advice on headspace. I have a 45 acp in 1911 that is Vietnam or WWII era that has been through a gunsmith from Fort Knoks. It has a hair trigger. That is how I got it. I bought it from a police officer that was unloading to clean when it went off, went through the wall and missed his daughter by a few feet. I love the gun because of the less than 2lb trigger. I have shot it for ten years with no problem. I got into reloading last year for my 25-06 and recently decided to load up some 45acp. I was confused about the taper crimp. Ammosmith.com u-tube vids helped more than any of the 4 reloading DVDs I have. Anyways long story short. I was having problems with the rounds being flush with the hood tang. So I called my daughter and had her bring me her 1911. I found my handloads would only chamber half way in hers but would mine fine. So I increased the taper crimp to my round until it would drop in and fall out no problem in hers. I am testing my handloads, a remmy, a winchester and an unknown hollow piont. They all drop into my daughter's 1911 and are flush with the hood tang. Now when I drop into my chamber they are all 1/8 below the hood tang. the brass is touching the ring inside the chamber and make a nice ring when you drop it in. when I cycle the 1911 without the spring I find the rounds come up out of mag then headspace against the breach face held by the extractor. Everywhere I read they say the 45acp headspaces off the case mouth but yet I find the extractor holding the case head against the breach face so how can this be? My question to the experts is do I have a problem here with more than 1/8 inch more headspace then my daughter's 1911? Is this dangerous. I have shoot it hundreds of times with no problem. I guess I will never need to trim a case. I could make some really tight handloads but they won't fit any other gun....


Any advice would be much appreciated


Thanks

I will be at Knob Creek on the 18 for the National Machine Gun shoot anyone else going to be there???
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

You can get a chamber guage from either Dillon, Midway or Brownell's. It is basically a SAAMI spec minimum chamber that you can use as a way to check your loads. I check all the rounds off my Dillon 650. After shooting IPSC for about 10 years I had ahd several fail to chamber.

I know it isn't normally accepted. But I put a VERY small roll crimp on the mouth of the cases.

I figure I'll get my butt flamed big time for that statement. But if it works...
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

They chamber fine. They just drop 1/8 below the hood tang which is where I read they say it should be flush. They are flush on a stock 1911. I believe mine has been machined deeper or something. My question is is my 1911 safe. Everyone says the 1911 headspaces off the case mouth but I find it headspaceing of the breach face with the extractor holding it in place so the cases mouth headspace does not matter or does it????

Thank guy
This is a great site. You guy are a little more hardcore then me I am just a deerhunter who dreams of that 1000yard shot one day...
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Are you SURE that your 1911 hasn't been rechambered to 451Detonics Mag or 460Rowland? .125" deeper chamber is excessive to say the least. Consider making a chamber cast to confirm or buy a replacement barrel.

The extractor should not be the only thing holding the case to the breechface. As you stated, the case is designed to headspace against the casemouth, .010" is normal, .125" is not.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

No I don't know what has been done. I have shot it for ten years with no problem. I only discovered this last night. It has had alot of work done to it. you can tell it been reblued(because of the rust pits), it says US government property, lots of fancy tool work and engravings. It has a hair trigger. Would never carry loaded. There is no play between the barrel and the bushing. The previous owner told me the gun smith had custom fit the barrel to the bushing. He gave me several boxes of 45 acp when I got it. That is all I know.

Is it dangeous?

How do I make a chamber cast?

It is differently .125" deeper then my daughter's colt 1911. The chamber's width is slighty wider also.

WOW now you got me really wondering....

 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

One of the easiest ways to get a chambercast is to get some cerrosafe (low temp alloy) plug the bore with a TIGHT patch and pour it in from the chamber side. Let cool and knock it out. Take measurements.

The good thing about your situation is the 45ACP is a low pressure cartridge, but having .125" excessive headspace and the extractor doing something it was never intended to do, is certainly less than ideal. By your description, seems like this 1911 has had some hobby gunsmithing to it. Would recommend that you take it to a qualified gunsmith to check it.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

there is no play between the barrel and bushing like in other 1911
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

I shoot 45 acp in my 460 Rowland, not ideal but it works. It does headspace off of the extractor, but runs fine.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Thanks for the reply. Makes me feel better. Thought maybe I could have blown my self up...
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

A couple questions if you don't mind.

So you only discovered the condition when you began handloading correct?

Prior to that you were happily firing factory ammo, unaware of this headspacing condition?

Any chambering or extraction problems with factory ammo?

How is accuracy with this pistol?

All other things equal, is a replacement barrel out of the question?

A case guage, as Victor suggests, at least gets you to factory dimensions.

Good luck.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Taper crimp your loads to .470 at the case mouth. I use a separate lee fcd as it
resizes the base as you crimp. You can cut off 308 cases in shorter and shorter increments and find out what your headspace length is. We used to cut them down
for the roland when it first appeared. Maybe you have taper crimped the mouth so
far that it is dropping in past the chamber. It certainly can blow up if you did. The
round can pinch the bullet in the case and double the pressures if it makes it up
into the barrel.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

1. Have a real gunsmith look at your chamber and fix the trigger. Its dangerous in its current configuration of both.
2. Complete your profile so we can recommend a gunsmith.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Just discovered while adjusting the taper crimp... Crimp is just enough to fit chamber. I compared it to three brands of factory ammo while set the crimp. They all fit the same. Just with this 1911 they drop 1/8 deeper then in daughters colt where they are flush...

They chamber and cycle just fine

Been shooting it for ten years. Never had a mis-feed, jam, or failed to fire. Never had a problem shooting cheap factory ammo.

more accurate then daughter's 1911. extremely accurate actually.

I love the trigger. Don't what to change it. It is why I love this gun. If a round is chambered make sure it is aimed downrange. I can cycle and clear the mag faster than any other gun i have shot. My 9mm has noting over the speed of this 1911. I would never carry this gun loaded I have others for that...
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Can someone tell me more about this Roland never heard of it before now...

I think i'll tried the 308 thing. I can measure it with calipers.

Factory ammo drops in the barrel the same so I think my reloads are right on. I took the barrel out of the gun to check the crimp as I was adjusting the die. I would drop the rounds in the barrel to see how they fit. Then I compared to factory. I figured it was better then buying a gauge. I Then pulled the barrel out of daughter's 1911 and found something was different. empty full sized case, factory, my reloads all fit the same...

Thanks guys for the replies
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

in the old days--- the high quality parts weren't available and dimensions were pretty loose. The 45 acp doesn't have to chamber on the case, this one sounds like it was set for 200 gr swc which have a sharp edge on them. By controlling the seating depth the target shooter could control both the tip over angle and the amount of the lead that was pressed into the "riflings" much like a custom 22 chamber thus fine tuning the bulleye accuracy. (reason for the "hair" trigger)
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

lovetsx,

1) at case mouth set dim should be between.468-.473"
2) get a case length gauge from Dillon or LE Wilson.

Should run about anything if dimensions are kept.


Rich
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

It measures .028 to deep. The 1/8" was an eyeball. With calipers it is .028 to deep.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

The headspace is .028 greater than it is suppose to be is what I meant to say... SO is that unsafe?


 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Thanks bigwheeler didn't google it because I figured you guys where the expects and would know the answers. Actually I was in a panic. One of my favorite handguns was messed up. So I signed up. I had been reading this forum for sometime but a little intimidated by you 1000 yarders. I really appreciate all the advice and fast reply's this place is great...

Actually this site has changed my deer hunting style. I now take a different approach. I get out my range finder and map it on a sniper range card now... It is now one shot one kill

Thanks guys..
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Factory 45 ACP barrels may not headspace on the case mouth due to loose tolerances, and 45 cases are usually found to be shorter than .898 even when reloaded many times. As a result, 45 headspace will often be controlled by the extractor or bullet ogive.

In spite of this loose dimensionality, it may still go bang fairly consistently, and due to low chamber pressures with this round, case stretching is not an issue. I have never lost a 45 case to a head separation in over 45+ years, though they will commonly crack at the neck. Long rounds are ok, so as long as your reloads work well in your pistol, they shouldn't blow-up. Having said that, a round shouldn't be able to drop past the barrel's throat either.

I'd want to know exactly what is going on there and it isn't really that hard to figure out...A chamber cast will help to determine what is really going on with your chamber, but I think that a more serious safety issue is the state of your trigger.

I personally think 2# is too light for any use other than a dedicated match pistol, but even then, it is possible with a 1911 to have both a light trigger that is safe, when properly fit by a smith that knows the 1911. As the hammer/sear is a part that is subject to wear with use, it is an important safety concern. It may be that your hammer/sear is worn and needs replacement, and that would be my first area of concern, but it wouldn't hurt to have a qualified smith check out your barrel at the same time.

TC
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

I believe the 1911 is from the WWII era. I Now think the smith bored the chamber to true it up or something. I love the trigger and don't want to mess with it. It is not worn. Had the hammer and sear apart some time ago cleaning everything. This is a target gun only. Don't carry it. Have others with nasty trigger pull for that.

Thanks top cat.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

I should have said google is our friend. You asked some questions I couldn't
answer and looked it up. Those three hits really cover your problem well. How to
check headspace is really explained.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Lovetsx,

You mentioned that your gun had some accuracy work done. This may have included refitting your factory barrel.

To do this the hood and locking lugs are welded and recut to fit tighter. In the process of refitting, the hood is made longer to take up the gap between the slide and barrel. Since the chamber is already cut to depth this would make it appear that the chamber is too deep when actully it is no deeper than it was from the factory.

The 460 Rowland is a longer cased 45 caliber that pushes a 185gr bullet at 1550fps in some loads. If your gun is an early 1911, it would be too soft to shoot the 460 in and is not recommended.

Most kits (like the one from Clark Custom Guns)include a barrel with a comp attatched and a heavy 24# recoil spring. Factory ammo can be purchaced from Georgia Arms or it can be loaded with 45ACP dies.

It sounds like you have a nice "old school" custom target pistol setup to shoot 200gr wadcutter at about 750fps. I would avoid shooting any factory ammo unless you respring it to accomodate the heavier load.

Shoot it and enjoy.

RAD
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Taper crimp your loads to .470 at the case mouth. I use a separate lee fcd as it
resizes the base as you crimp. You can cut off 308 cases in shorter and shorter increments and find out what your headspace length is. We used to cut them down
for the roland when it first appeared. Maybe you have taper crimped the mouth so
far that it is dropping in past the chamber. It certainly can blow up if you did. The
round can pinch the bullet in the case and double the pressures if it makes it up
into the barrel. </div></div>


Wrong, you can not blow the gun up from overcrimping. The brass does not have enough tention to hold that much pressure.

This would only happen if the bullet was way over seated into the case and caused a compressed charge.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Rad, you are misreading what I wrote, if you pinch the case in the throat it will
raise pressures way up. It would take a long case or short chamber but it could
be done. You don't want the case mouth passing the end of the chamber. Most
likely the firing pin wouldn't reach the primer but you never know.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

Understood, but neither of those are associated with what the OP descibed.
 
Re: Headspaceing the 45acp HELP

thanks Radcustom

After thinking about your post I got a bright light out and a magnifying glass out and guess what I found? The tang as been added too. There is a difference in the bluing on the end and a very small pit. On the side of the tang there is grinder marks. Who ever did this was good. There is no weld lines but under extreme magnification you can see something has been added there is a color difference right where the case should be. On the side of the tang you can see how much was added because it is not ground flush....

thanks again! You are on to something here
 
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