Anyone shot both, looking for the one that shields the blast best from the shooter. I’d imagine recoil wise they are similar. Will be for a dasher
Thanks
Thanks
- Thread starter Gquire
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Been using a DN5 since end of Nov, have 1k rounds on it. Has a very good blast/concussion shadow for shooter, I've never felt the concussion. Note 1) I'm not running the hottest loads 2) I've had people in my squad comment how loud it is (although I don't really agree w/ that, I've been next to it too) 3) I'm not blast/concussion shy
I can't remember shooting a Hellfire
I can't remember shooting a Hellfire
Thanks for the first hand info, appreciate it.
The 419 brakes are some of if not the worst brakes when it comes to concussion and throwing shit back to shooter and people watching. Add in shooting under cover and its like getting hit in the head with a hammer.
For something like a dasher you do not need the absolute maximum braking of something like a fat bastard gen 3 or a A419.
Look at the ACE and the ATS Brake. Both are very good at managing recoil while being very shooter friendly and not giving you a headache after shooting all day.
I own a few of them all and use them for different shit. The only brakes that stay in the brake drawer now are the A419. They are just stupid obnoxious with no real recoil reduction benefit to make them worth it. Their mounting system is shit as well.
For something like a dasher you do not need the absolute maximum braking of something like a fat bastard gen 3 or a A419.
Look at the ACE and the ATS Brake. Both are very good at managing recoil while being very shooter friendly and not giving you a headache after shooting all day.
I own a few of them all and use them for different shit. The only brakes that stay in the brake drawer now are the A419. They are just stupid obnoxious with no real recoil reduction benefit to make them worth it. Their mounting system is shit as well.
I use ACE but have bought a DN5 to try on a new 25x47 project this year. Concerned I don’t like the rearward ports for shooter friendly concussion. I really like the ace for that!
I’ve had the hellfire (4 of them actually), FB, LB, and a few more. The hellfire is prob the least effective out of every break I’ve used that is a popular option for PRS. I donated my last to a friends prize table for a club finale. I’d had it for 2 years and it was still unfired.
I’ve had the hellfire (4 of them actually), FB, LB, and a few more. The hellfire is prob the least effective out of every break I’ve used that is a popular option for PRS. I donated my last to a friends prize table for a club finale. I’d had it for 2 years and it was still unfired.
I haven't messed with the other brakes mentioned earlier, but I have to vehemently disagree on this. It wouldn't surprise me if Area 419 brakes have the best mounting system in the biz. Especially switching back and forth between suppressor to brake and visa versa. Zero effort to get it on and off and lined up straight. Takes seconds, and requires zero tools.
They come loose way too easy and there is no way to tighten then becuase there are no wrench flats. Eventually the knurling wears down as well. The vast majority of people with loose brakes at matches are running 419.
I've never had a concern for that. I stand by my previous statement.
Its not hard to understand. Thermal Expansion and contraction makes hand tight on brakes loosen up.
When they loosen up you start throwing shots. Thats why many people will only run a brake they can torque down to keep this from happening. Many competitors have checking their muzzle break before a stage as part of their checklist for this reason. I saw it happen to shooters at each of the last 3 matches I shot.
You many not have a concern for it, but that's out of ignorance/lack of experience. Its a very real thing.
When they loosen up you start throwing shots. Thats why many people will only run a brake they can torque down to keep this from happening. Many competitors have checking their muzzle break before a stage as part of their checklist for this reason. I saw it happen to shooters at each of the last 3 matches I shot.
You many not have a concern for it, but that's out of ignorance/lack of experience. Its a very real thing.
Your ignorance of my ignorance/lack of experience is also a real thing. I can see it happening to a suppressor where the collet that the brakes wear to push them on to the adapter doesn't exist, and maybe a wrench would be a good idea, but my brakes are and have been rock solid. If anything I have at times wondered if I should get a tool to get them off, but in the end have always been able to get them off without any. The speed/simplicity of installation and accuracy of adjustment when doing so is where it's at. I hate timing self timing brakes only to find out I self-timed it past the target angle and have to do it again until it lines up straight. Conversely, trying to self time Area 419 brakes is a revelation.
Interesting and aggressive take.
Having at least a little experience with the mounting system, and having spend quite a lot of time with them at matches, I can tell you that everything mounted on the end of a barrel, regardless of the system, has the ability to loosen. I've seen it with brakes from all makers, including ours. Not a common thing from anyone, but I've also seen scopes loose, action screws, and even a barrel one time. Take accountability for your gear, it's part of the game.
The major difference that we pride ourselves one - if the brake collar comes loose, or you need to even totally remove the brake for some reason, you can replace it without POI shift. Since we are not using a jam nut for tension, but a taper, the position of the brake bore relative to the rifle bore is MUCH more consistent. Just the nature of the mechanism.
That said, maybe you don't like it or don't have faith in it. If that's the case, there are a TON of other great options from quality US manufacturers. Buy the item you believe in or want to support, and I'm sure it will also do a very fine job. The beauty of the precision rifle community at this point in time is that regardless of the part you're looking for, there are least a few options that are all great choices.
Also to add that I have zero POI shift when switching between my Hellfire brakes and my suppressor. That's the beez kneez. I may have gotten lucky or something with that, but the match last Saturday had a narrow prop to slide in and out of on the last stage. I could have done it with a suppressor and taken it off after, but I have zero POI shift, so I hot swapped that bad boi with my hellfire and in 36 seconds I'm ready with a shorter weapon and nothing to lose. It was just another reason I like them so much. But, like Craig said, the options are really great nowadays. To each their own. I have switched exclusively to the Area 419 ecosystem of mounts and am exceedingly pleased.
I hear what you are saying Craig, but there is a big difference between hand tight and wrench tight. I have had a sidewinder and helfire match come loose on me during matches. I have seen it happen another half dozen or so times to other guys. You are right anything can come loose and we build processes to mitigate this, such as hand checking the brake before each stage to make sure it didn't come loose. However there are a ton of shooters who are newer or just dont care/know to check.
The other issue with your brakes is the port angle and how obnoxious they are. They are popular so enough people are running them at matches to ruin just about any squads shooting experience, especially when we have to prone out in a line or under cover. They do not really provide any more recoil reduction/muzzle flip reduction than brakes that do not throw as much concussion back to shooter and to the sides.
I tried to like them but they are just painful to shoot and painful to be around. They seem to throw more shit back than even the TMB and APA Fat Bastard G3 which are notorious for their concussion.
On the flip side the mav can is awesome and really pleasant to shoot and be around. You guys hit a home run with that can.
It would be nice if you guys could redesign the brake to be less obnoxious to the shooter and whats next to them/behind them. If it was up to me, the 419 brakes would be banned from competition for this reason alone. ACE and ATS are able to make awesome brakes that tame recoil and return to stability fast while not being painful to be next to.
Always happy to take feedback, Anonymous. While hand tight and wrench tight are not the same, all threads are not the same, and the functions of tightening/holding needs of different mechanisms are not the same.
We make a series of Hellfire brakes, with 2P, 3P, and Match, that perform in different ways for different preferences. We also have the Sidewinder, which is more aggressive than any of the Hellfire products. But, again, if one isn't right for you, lots of great options out there.
Calling for a ban of a brake because of your preference seems a little bit off the reservation, but if that's how you feel, that's why the forums are here.
Have a great weekend, and shoot straight!
Yea I have 2 of the 2P on hunting guns. Helps tame down recoil and there are not many options for .35 and .45 bores.
We have had some discussions on here recently related to muzzle brakes and how latest research is showing they contribute to TBI/concussive injuries and can make them worse. Here is a recent thread where we talk about it. https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-poor-form-at-the-range.7208128/post-11433667
Bottom line, Its an issue and will probably become a point of contention in the future in PRS. Getting ahead of it would not be a bad idea. Guys would not be designing brakes to deal with these issues if they didn't exist. How many guys end the day with a headache? If you can make a brake that performs similar without injuring/hurting people, then why wouldn't you? Watching guys curl up in a ball and hide from people shooting (like we saw this last weekend at frontline) obnoxious brakes just reinforces this. Its unnecessary.
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just sold my DN5...wouldn't stay tight. I'm back to the Hellfire Match and wish I'd never left it.
Here are the results from a pretty good test that Yanick Sab did. I changed color codes to be a little easier to see.
You can check out his YouTube videos for the full test.
You can check out his YouTube videos for the full test.
Yep I watched it last night and I am sold on the ATS will probably order this weekend. Thanks for posting.
What does the category "feeling" mean?
If you watch the video, he labels feeling one through four with one being the least concussion at the shooter and four being the worst
Interesting to see the TMB perform so poorly in that category - I thought that was one of it's main selling points, that the giant tuner weight collar deflected blast away from the shooter.
Unfortunately, brakes that perform better at reducing recoil will be more uncomfortable at the shooter.
As far as other claims, you can't get around that. If you have something behind the ports that deflects gas, that in turn will counteract the recoil reduction of the brake. You need gas pushing the rifle forward, which means gas coming back towards shooter. Deflecting the gas after that just pushes the rifle to the rear again. So, if his collar deflected the glass, it would in turn reduce the recoil reduction performance.
I hear you.
I was just surprised given the hype around this specific brake. Specifically, from what I heard in a podcast or two from shooters (that *wink* may be sponsored by TMB). They made it sound like the TMB could cure cancer
I guess it doesn't after all.Anyways, as interesting as all of this information is, I kind of find it much like Pew Science's suppressor ratings. At the end of the day does a recoil reduction of 11% really matter? Does a dB reduction of 3 matter? Some of it becomes a bit to academic, with the numbers washing out in the real world.
I hear you.
I was just surprised given the hype around this specific brake. Specifically, from what I heard in a podcast or two from shooters (that *wink* may be sponsored by TMB). They made it sound like the TMB could cure cancer
Anyways, as interesting as all of this information is, I kind of find it much like Pew Science's suppressor ratings. At the end of the day does a recoil reduction of 11% really matter? Does a dB reduction of 3 matter? Some of it becomes a bit to academic, with the numbers washing out in the real world.
Agreed. A lot of it is perception as well as points per match performance for people.
Take a look at the "feeling" category. A lot of the green and yellow brakes, people will swear they cut recoil down much better than other brakes. When in reality, they are just shooting better and/or staying on the gun better with a more comfortable brake. Which is great for them. Just not the reasons they think.
For many people, getting something like an ATS brake that is more comfortable for the shooter, and still relatively high in recoil reduction, will net better match scores than going with a Botnia Max that reduces more recoil, but gives them a headache halfway through the match.
One important thing to look at muzzle brakes is efficency, which is mostly ignored.
As @kthomas said, who cares about 11% this, or 8% that.
If brake A is comparable to brake B, but its physically half the size, would brake A be more efficent as its handling gas, recoil, muzzle jump, pulse rate, etc. ?
I dont like having to have a brake twice the size and weigh twice as much to get 5% benefit.
Juice isnt worth the squeeze.
As @kthomas said, who cares about 11% this, or 8% that.
If brake A is comparable to brake B, but its physically half the size, would brake A be more efficent as its handling gas, recoil, muzzle jump, pulse rate, etc. ?
I dont like having to have a brake twice the size and weigh twice as much to get 5% benefit.
Juice isnt worth the squeeze.
I'm pretty sure that for the most part, people can literally just choose the brake they find the most aesthetically pleasing. People shooting off props are mostly using heavy rifles and/or small cartridges, so recoil isn't bad. And everyone else is shooting prone or modified prone, so their recoil management is better.
So, when most all brakes reduce recoil at a minimum amount that it's diminishing returns past that performance.....you're likely not going to lose anything not running the very best performing brakes.
Real world experience with Without Warning TMBs - all three main shooting mates use them.
Maybe the collar "protects" user but no one near you is happy.
100% the worst brake blast you will ever experience if you are beside the user as a fellow shooter or acting as an RO.
The guys love them saying they are really effective.
I literally will not even consider being on the firing line in say the pre-match zero session if I see a guy is using a TMB brake.
If I'm working as an RO and I see a TMB coming up to the stage it's, "Oh boy, here we go...."
Sort of my point. Why have a 8" long dildo hanging off the end of your barrel when you can have a 3" brake that looks the part, lighter, and does 95% the same job.
Its down to visual appeal, and theres a LOT of brakes which are ugly.
I've shot the APA LB, Area 419, Insite OG, Harells(not on the list), JP enterprise recoil eliminator(not on the list), and currently the ACE. The JP brake while ugly as hell and LOUD is a fantastic brake, I wish they made one 3/4-24 to fit a 1.25" barrel. The ACE is another fantastic brake that is my new favorite. I want the least amount of back blast and look at recoil reduction second and the ACE does both pretty well.
Yikes
You'll be happy to know I'm a suppressor shooter.
I just don't care for any concussive sound waves sent my way. Muzzle brakes are obnoxiously annoying to be around, as a shooter or spectator. Some are worse than others, as you point out.
I shot on a squad last week with a guy with the MPA DN5 last week. He said on the gun wasn’t so bad and that we got a lot less muzzle jump/flip.
However
I have RO’d a lot. I have been around a lot of brakes. That thing is miserable. I literally missed his 2nd shot because I was still trying to recover from the first one. On the gun it might be fine I want no part of being around it.
I tried standing directly behind him to hide from it and it was still the worst brake I have been around.
For comparison it shoot an ACE.
However
I have RO’d a lot. I have been around a lot of brakes. That thing is miserable. I literally missed his 2nd shot because I was still trying to recover from the first one. On the gun it might be fine I want no part of being around it.
I tried standing directly behind him to hide from it and it was still the worst brake I have been around.
For comparison it shoot an ACE.
THIS RIGHT HERE!!!
I just shot my MPA with the DN5 and the its the worst muzzle blast I've ever felt...you can literally feel the wind blow across your face and head and IMHO its not the best at recoil reduction but it looks cool LOL!! This gun will have a ACE on it by end of this week.
Squadded w/ someone else who had a DN5 shooting factory Berger out of an 6.5cm AR10. It was the most concussive/loudest brake for bystanders I’ve ever squadded with, but he also had a ~20” barrel. I still didn’t notice the blast from my DN5 all day.
I’ll still be running the DN5 for a while, probably for the rest of my current barrel, but will try a DN3 & ACE in the future.
I’ll still be running the DN5 for a while, probably for the rest of my current barrel, but will try a DN3 & ACE in the future.
The ace performed horribly. I ran one for a year. The ATS has significantly more recoil reduction, while being more pleasant than the ACE to shoot around. Yanick "feels" is very subjective, but having tested the ATS and ACE side by Side, the ATS Beats it in shooter concussion and side concussion as well. The TMB and A419 are by far the worst, Followed by the APA Fast Bastard Gen 3. I shoot a FB on 6.5cm match guns just to help with muzzle flip. Its a very effective brake, it just sucks to be around it.
I have been using Area419 brakes on my match rifles since 2018 or 2019 with great success, they are all I recommend due to the ease of removal for cleaning at the end of each day and retiming. If your worried about them coming loose a strap wrench will allow you to give it a touch more torque than your hand and all your worries will be gone.
They still loosen up all the time on peoples rifles and if you crank it down, good luck getting it back off without shoving a rod through the baffles and getting some leverage on it.
They are the worst brake out there IMO for a number of reasons. I ran them for about a year before wising up. There are much better products out there both recoil wise, concussion wise and ease of use (not coming loose).
They are the worst brake out there IMO for a number of reasons. I ran them for about a year before wising up. There are much better products out there both recoil wise, concussion wise and ease of use (not coming loose).
So it looks to me like the gills on the ATS are angled back to me...so your saying that there is no back blast on the shooter? Serious question because I have one in my cart but just want to verify that.
It has the least amount of back blast and side blast of any brake we tested. Its not just the blast angle but the fluid dynamics of the blast. You can stand right next to someone shooting it and while you feel the blast you do not get the ringing concussion you get from other brakes. I don't understand WHY, I just know it works.
In fact, I ordered another one today
The ATS tested very well in the data posted earlier. Basically its an equal performer the the 419 match, with even less concussion.
Just ordered one for my 65 SST ill post back thanks.It has the least amount of back blast and side blast of any brake we tested. Its not just the blast angle but the fluid dynamics of the blast. You can stand right next to someone shooting it and while you feel the blast you do not get the ringing concussion you get from other brakes. I don't understand WHY, I just know it works.
In fact, I ordered another one today
Is your barrel threaded 5/8-24? If yes Ill send you my DN5 and you can try before you buy...shoot me a PM if you want to try it.
It has the least amount of back blast and side blast of any brake we tested. Its not just the blast angle but the fluid dynamics of the blast. You can stand right next to someone shooting it and while you feel the blast you do not get the ringing concussion you get from other brakes. I don't understand WHY, I just know it works.
In fact, I ordered another one today
Mine came in Friday can’t wait to use it
Stuey did you get a chance to shoot the DN5? I'd like to hear what you think about it.
LR1845 let me borrow his DN5 for a local match held near me. When I was shooting with the break I was able to hold my position quite well with each shot. The major issue I had was the blast from it. I could not take it during the match. I shot 6 sieges with it but the back blast was more than I could take. I did make sure it was on correctly and it stayed on, but after my 6 stage, I had to take it off. I switched back to my Ace Break.
