Help analyze targets

[turbo54]

I know there are rules about posting pics of targets. I couldn't find them for review... if I'm breaking rules, feel free to delete - and please accept my apologies.

I've been shooting somewhere between 42 and 43 gr of varget with a 180SMK for a while at 600 yards with good luck. This winter I bought a chronograph, So I have up the ante on my load development. I decided to try a range of powder charges between 42 and 43 grains. Here are my results. I have written on each target: group size, average velocity, extreme spread, _and standard deviation. I also wrote powder charge, which is +/- .02gr (not a typo),according to my digital scale. Because I normally just use 42 gr, I also tried a group of 5 with the bullet seated .015" deeper than usual, and a group. .015 longer than my standard load, which is 2.790" measured from case head to meplat tip. SMKs aren't super consistent on the tip, so that measurement is the average. For the deeper/longer groups, I adjusted my seater down/up. 015".

Unfortunately, I ran out of time and only got off 4 shots on the 42.75 load. Tell me where I should go next. By the way, im a good shooter, and have learned to trust myself in shooting groups. All shots felt good, with no called fliers.

Also unfortunately, I forgot to grab my control group, which was 42 gr, seated nominally.

Savage model 10, .308, 24" barrel, shot from 200 yards.

 

[Tackleberry]

Re: Help analyze targets

Myself and multiple buddies all shoot 44.5 gr varget, 210M primers, lapua brass with 175 smk's out of 308's and they all shoot 1/2 to 3/4 moa groups. This seems to be our magic load. I don't remember velocity but it is extremely tight in the groups. col is 2.80 like yours.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

Sorry, probably should have specified range before posting pics. Range was 200 yards, and there was a gentle breeze but not much. Lateral dispersion is either intrinsic to the load or bad shooting.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Help analyze targets

Scope?

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

Leupold VX-III LR 4.5-14x50, fine duplex reticle.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Help analyze targets



Vertical dispersion looks fine, and that (in my limited experience) is more shooter induced.

Taking your cheek off the stock every shot? Easy to do especially if you have a new toy (chrono) to look at between shots.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

I know what you mean - but I don't think that is a part of these test results. Im serious about my shooting, and as with many activities, the follow through is crucial.

Basically, I trust these groups to be a good indication of what these loads can each do. I dug up an old target with 5 shots in a nickel done at 100 yards with 43.0 gr varget. I know the next thing to do is try out 43gr again, but not sure what else.

Anyone see a trend here or anything that says "focus your attention here"?

 

[Rthur]

Re: Help analyze targets

I'm not a expert but I know what Frank and Jacob would say about these. Your verticle is stronger than your horizontal. Usually as a result of unsquare trigger pulling.

good luck
Rthur

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not a expert but I know what Frank and Jacob would say about these. Your verticle is stronger than your horizontal. Usually as a result of unsquare trigger pulling.

good luck
Rthur </div></div>

Ok. No need to tiptoe through the tulips... You think I should consider only the the verical component here in regards to ammo, and consider the horizontal as my lack of skill?

 

[Rthur]

Re: Help analyze targets

Alright turbo the title of this thread says HELP ANALYZE TARGETS.
Would you say that your verticle is half of your horizontal?
Do you think that your loads will only disperse horizontally?
It looks like your verticle is 1.0-1.25 average.
It looks like your horizontal is 2.35 average.
At this range is the wind causing this much movement?
Natural point of Aim on every shot.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Help analyze targets

Turbo,

What were the wind conditions? Do you use wind flags? If not, grab some 4 ft. lathe and tie 2'-3' surveyors ribbon on the top. At 200 yards place about 4 lathe between you and the target.

Wind is the first thing that comes to mind.

Jason

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

Wind was mild at worst. Either the ammo was causing the horizontal variance or I was. My range is an alley cut into the forest; I set my windage zero at 600 yards on a CALM day, and I've NEVER had more than a minute wind there - even on a breezy day at 600.

Maybe I was having a bad day, but the horizontal variance on the 42.25 load is a LOT, and I really didn't think that was me sucking. I'll own it though - if experience tells y'all the ammo wont do that - then I suck.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

We do have wind flags, but they're pointless for me. The 500 yard flag will be floppy south, 400 yard flag dead, 300 yard flag floppy north, 200 yard flag hard east, 100 yard flag dead and the 0 yard flag floppy east. Shooting is from west to east. Again, I've never experienced more than a minute wind, so I always hold dead on for the first shot ir two, see what happens, then make a small correction. I do make a point of touching off the shot only when it feels calm from where I'm shooting.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

Here is a target I shot at a 200-600 match recently. There are 28 holes, 3 sighters at 200, and 5 for score at each yardage: 200,300,400,500,600. I didn't have my elevation dope perfect at 300,400,500...and had to dial it around a bit. Day was quite breezy, half value wind coming from 10:30 o'clock. Don't know if you can make them out, but the 5 shots not pasted were shot at 600, and show 5" horizontal, and 5" vertical extreme spread. This was my 42.0gr Varget, 180SMK, 2.800 +/- .010 load.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Help analyze targets

Then what are you looking for if you know its a good load?
I don't care how good you are, if you think you can't be part of the problem you are wrong.

Believe me, if you could shoot consistently sub moa at 600yds you wouldn't be asking what you are asking....


vertical=load
horizontal=loose screw behind trigger

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then what are you looking for if you know its a good load?
I don't care how good you are, if you think you can't be part of the problem you are wrong.

Believe me, if you could shoot consistently sub moa at 600yds you wouldn't be asking what you are asking....


vertical=load
horizontal=loose screw behind trigger </div></div>

What am I looking for? Better ammo! What I've been using is pretty good, but I want better.

Re-read my remarks in this thread. I don't believe that I have suggested the problem coudln't be me. It could be - and thats a scenario I'm completely willing to face. I need more practice.

Lastly...

I know first hand that ammo can horizonally affect point of impact. I have shot ammo A, then switched to ammo B to find that not only did it need a different elevation setting, but also a windage correction too.

I'd like the more experienced people to chime in here - but it seems to me this proves (?????) that horizontal printing is not ONLY caused by the shooter, but also by ammo/rifle dynamics...??? Seems logical to me. Explain where my thought process is going awry!

 

[rocky_lange]

Re: Help analyze targets

Are you shooting from a bipod or a benchrest type front rest? I was shooting a match a few months ago, 100BR, and didn't notice that my elevation adjustment lock down was loose. It caused horizontal stringing (and a horrible match).

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guntard007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you shooting from a bipod or a benchrest type front rest? I was shooting a match a few months ago, 100BR, and didn't notice that my elevation adjustment lock down was loose. It caused horizontal stringing (and a horrible match). </div></div>

These targets were all shot prone off a bipod, which is how I shoot 99% of the time.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Help analyze targets

Different ammos having a different windage zero and horizontal stringing of a load are NOT the same concept.

You say you are willing to accept it may be your technique, but it doesn't seem like that anytime anyone mentions what it may be.

How in depth is your brass prep, how many firings on this brass (and are they all the same number), what is you neck tension, measure from the ogive not the meplat, how far off the lands are you loading, etc, etc??

Adjusting your load to variences you see from single 5 shot groups with supposed .01gr specificity (which I guarantee you is lost in the noise) will not get you you best load, too small a data sample anyway.

But what do I know, once I get a load that shoots sub-moa with the least amount of prep work I stop and realize any misses are usually me.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Help analyze targets

I have a couple suggestions. First, I shoot more prone than anything else but when it comes to developing loads, I always use a good rest on a bench. Second, I always shoot my first groups at 100 yards. Additionally, I use as much magnification on the scope as possible.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Help analyze targets

42.5 and 42.75 look alright to me. I'd take those and start playing with the seating depth..

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help analyze targets

I've prepared some ammo for some ladder tests, which I've never done before. Gonna try 41-45gr with a 180smk, 43-47/168smk, 42-46/175smk. I did 1/2gr increments.

I've seen some debate on what yardage to do these tests from. I can do 200,300,400,500 or 600. Any opinions?

Based on the pictured targets, seems like 300 is an absolute minimum, to avoid lots of holes close to eachother. Is there any reason not to do it at 600? My target is 5ft x 5ft @which should easily accommodate the differing points of impact from different velocities.

 

[rcamuglia]

Re: Help analyze targets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then what are you looking for if you know its a good load?
I don't care how good you are, if you think you can't be part of the problem you are wrong.

Believe me, if you could shoot consistently sub moa at 600yds you wouldn't be asking what you are asking....


vertical=load
horizontal=loose screw behind trigger</div></div>


You're telling us you've never seen a load that has horizontal dispersion?

Barrels have many harmonics and strange movement. Side to side happens to be one of them.