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Help find the load.

Tokay444

Black Rifles Matter. Haney is stalking me.
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jun 24, 2019
    4,488
    6,034
    Hey guys.
    Hoping some of you can help affirm my assumptions or tell me I’m out to lunch.
    I’m still fairly new to reloading, but I take a very systematic approach.
    6.5 Creedmoor in Alpha SRP brass. Second firing. H4350 and 140 Berger Hybrids. I did not bump shoulders between firings. I wanted to make sure each case has fully formed to my chamber first. I will bump .002” every time from now on. I did not anneal either. I will from now on. I neck sized with a Redding Comp bushing die, and 21st Century expander mandrel. Neck tension is .0016” measured with my micrometer.
    These shots are 101 through 200 on this barrel, and it’s is still speeding up.
    I loaded 10 rounds of 10 different charge weights last night, and shot all 100 this morning. .040” off my lands.
    I shot each charge weight successively moving to the next target for every shot, then gave the rifle time to cool before shooting the next 10 shots in reverse order. So the groups in the middle I guess would have the most consistent barrel temperature for what it’s worth.
    Knowing that the barrel is still speeding up, I don’t know that I should put TOO much weight in ES, but moreover the velocity averages and differences in averages between charge weights.
    I also believe I should be looking at POI shift through the charge weights. If those assumptions are correct, I believe I have a node in the 41.8gr to 42.1gr range, and another between 43.0 and 43.3, but possibly above 43.3. I did not hit pressure at 43.3. Should I explore in the area above that?
    Shooting 100 rounds as best as I can manage is not an easy feat, and I don’t doubt some of the vertical spread is how I’m driving the rifle, standing, behind a wobbly table.
    Every shot was made with the Magnetospeed attached. 26” M24 contour.
    I appreciate any insight I can gain, and thanks in advance.
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    I should mention these are all at 100 yards.
     
    You've done a great job so far. You seem meticulous, which is important. I would recommend getting in a more stable position if possible. No doubt some mental and physical fatigue will affect your shots. Good news is this is prelim and you'll be confirming your findings once you pick the loads you want to investigate further. I would also recommend trying the hotter loads if you're not seeing pressure signs. Max varies by gun obviously. Lastly, the Magneto speed can change the harmonics of the barrel and cause inaccuracies. On secondary investigation, or after 5 shots, I'll often shoot with it off. On my Savage Ashbury with a linear fluted .308 barrel it seems to not affect it as much as my CA carbon 6.5 PRC.
     
    Classic example of MagnetoSpeed. Barrel heating up can causes stringing too though. Usually in an upward sequence.
     

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    I definitely need to get the Magnetospeed off. You’re absolutely right.
    I picked up the ARCA-6 with the intention or machining my own ARCA mount for the chronograph. I just haven’t had any time for, “government jobs” lately.
    And yes. Fatigue. May hands were shivering, and began to struggle to hold POA for the final 30 shots. I gotta get prone.
     
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    With that information, 43.1 or 43.2 and then find seating depth node (without magneto).

    43.0 and 43.3 were the lowest ES and close in speed. That’s your powder node for the charges tested.
     
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    Thank a D.
    I’m a fairly astute listener, and have heard Lowlight talk about longer rails with bipods mounted way out causing vertical stringing. This rail is quite rigid in its design, but I think I’ll try it with the bipod choked up under the forend as well. If for no other reason than to know for sure.
     
    You have a magneto strapped on. Group data is gonna be all but worthless. And you really don’t need to shoot groups to find powder node.

    Just pick which speed out of those two nodes you want and find seating depth without chrono. And you’re done.

    Once you shoot it at distance, if it doesn’t hold up, it’s either your or an inconsistent bullet BC. As you’ll have confirmed stable powder/ES and tuned your group via seating depth.
     
    And shit. Just saw the barrel is still speeding up. Once it stops speeding up, run the charges again over magneto. Don’t even worry with groups.
     
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    So here’s another question.
    Is the node the velocity, or the charge weight?
    What I’m getting at is, as the barrel speeds up, and the equivalent charge weight yields a faster speed, will I still observe similar ES with that charge, or will I need to back off to get back to that specific speed in order to maintain the low ES?
     
    Basically, you’re just looking for an area where the velocity is pretty close across multiple charge weights and also has a consistent acceptable ES. You’ll find these nodes at different velocity levels. Since you’re looking for consistently, you don’t really look at the actual speed. Looking for flat spots AND consistent ES.

    Example of not a node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 25 ES
    42.2 = 2825 fps 5 ES
    42.4 = 2840 fps 22 ES

    Example of node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 15 ES
    42.2 = 2808 fps 18 ES
    42.4 = 2818 fps 12 ES

    42.2 is the middle point of your node. Now you just run with 42.2 and do seating depth testing. You’ll be able to dial your group size in via depth. Load on the long side of the seating depth to give you more room for throat erosion. Thats it and you’re done.

    Now if you did this when it was say 60deg and you’re into the summer months, you can confidently load 42.0 or 42.1 and know it will still run almost exactly the same. In the winter run 42.3 or 42.4.
     
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    If you have a target velocity in mind, load up or down to get to it incrementally and you’ll likely find a node somewhere close or close enough to your desired velocity (generally speaking).
     
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    Awesome. Thanks.
    I’m in for a fun week of tinkering with a couple loads and seating depths.
     
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    Awesome. Thanks.
    I’m in for a fun week of tinkering with a couple loads and seating depths.

    The speed node method is super easy and stable.
    Since I started doing this my LR loads are a lot more consistent and forgiving.

    My next barrel I’m going change my method a bit.

    Usually I just load up a mild load to fire form brass and get barrel up to speed and just shoot steel at distance as they generally shoot quite well.
    My plan is to actually do a seating depth test with those initial loads then do my speed test when barrel is ready.
     
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    Ahhhh, so now I have another question. Is my seating node the same for all my speed nodes, or will optimum seating depth differ with velocity?
    My thought process is that seating depth is a control of timing when the projectile leaves the barrel in its harmonic wave, which would lead me to believe that seating depth would need to be revisited with different charge weights.
     
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    Basically, you’re just looking for an area where the velocity is pretty close across multiple charge weights and also has a consistent acceptable ES. You’ll find these nodes at different velocity levels. Since you’re looking for consistently, you don’t really look at the actual speed. Looking for flat spots AND consistent ES.

    Example of not a node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 25 ES
    42.2 = 2825 fps 5 ES
    42.4 = 2840 fps 22 ES

    Example of node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 15 ES
    42.2 = 2808 fps 18 ES
    42.4 = 2818 fps 12 ES

    42.2 is the middle point of your node. Now you just run with 42.2 and do seating depth testing. You’ll be able to dial your group size in via depth. Load on the long side of the seating depth to give you more room for throat erosion. Thats it and you’re done.

    Now if you did this when it was say 60deg and you’re into the summer months, you can confidently load 42.0 or 42.1 and know it will still run almost exactly the same. In the winter run 42.3 or 42.4.
    How many rounds
    Basically, you’re just looking for an area where the velocity is pretty close across multiple charge weights and also has a consistent acceptable ES. You’ll find these nodes at different velocity levels. Since you’re looking for consistently, you don’t really look at the actual speed. Looking for flat spots AND consistent ES.

    Example of not a node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 25 ES
    42.2 = 2825 fps 5 ES
    42.4 = 2840 fps 22 ES

    Example of node:

    42.0 = 2800 fps 15 ES
    42.2 = 2808 fps 18 ES
    42.4 = 2818 fps 12 ES

    42.2 is the middle point of your node. Now you just run with 42.2 and do seating depth testing. You’ll be able to dial your group size in via depth. Load on the long side of the seating depth to give you more room for throat erosion. Thats it and you’re done.

    Now if you did this when it was say 60deg and you’re into the summer months, you can confidently load 42.0 or 42.1 and know it will still run almost exactly the same. In the winter run 42.3 or 42.4.
    Not trying to hijack the thread but trying to learn. How many rounds at each charge weight is a reasonable enough data sample?
     
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    How many rounds

    Not trying to hijack the thread but trying to learn. How many rounds at each charge weight is a reasonable enough data sample?

    Depends on how consistent your brass prep/powder drop/seating is.

    If you’re very methodical and get very consistent tolerances.....3-5 shots will work. You just have to make sure everything is as consistent as possible. Take extra care to do it all the same, especially for load development.

    If it’s not that consistent/methodical, it will require quite a bit more rounds as you won’t know if 3-5 was just a fluke.
     
    Ahhhh, so now I have another question. Is my seating node the same for all my speed nodes, or will optimum seating depth differ with velocity?
    My thought process is that seating depth is a control of timing when the projectile leaves the barrel in its harmonic wave, which would lead me to believe that seating depth would need to be revisited with different charge weights.

    It’ll change with significant velocity changes.

    Basically, it’s harmonically in tune with the barrel. If pressure/speed changes enough, you’ll need to re-tune the seating depth so the bullet exits the bore in on of the harmonic nodes.
     
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    Thanks for the affirmation.
     
    Did you reload the 43.3gr cases yet? I’m wondering how the primer pockets held up.
     
    Did you reload the 43.3gr cases yet? I’m wondering how the primer pockets held up.
    I'll punch them now and check, but as stated, they're SRP. I don't think it's going to be an issue seeing as I didn't have so much as even a flattened primer.
    My LRP Alpha brass, albeit in a different barrel didn't see primer pocket issues until the second loading of 44.0 grains, and the throat wasn't as long in that barrel, so their was less case capacity with that load than I have here.
     
    43.3 pockets are every bit as tight as the 40.6 pockets, so far.
    40.6 on the left, 43.3 to the right.
    craters on every single one. That is the norm with this gun.
    Ever ever so slight swipe on some cases.
    I’m going to work the mid node. 42.5 and 42.6 though. I don’t need to to be a super speed demon, the barrel is still speeding up, and it was very cool yesterday.
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    Soooooo...., I found that 43.2 was likely going to be a bit too hot when things really warm up here, and I couldn’t find a seating depth that was conducive to 42.6, so I did some more velocity testing and found a really consistent lower velocity node at 40.6. Just below where I fire formed at 40.8.
    I did a seating depth test yesterday and shot for groups with the depth that stood out as most forgiving.
    Now I just need to learn how to shoot. Without pushing that left flyer, they’re .11 and .25moa respectively.
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    I’m still here and with 30 rounds left, but the first ten are cold shooter.
    Second ten were going awesome up to the last 3 shots. I adjusted 3 mils up so as not to blow out my POA. These are 100 yards only, but so far I think this load is panning out.
    Shooting ten round groups standing behind the table is not as easy as some of you make it seem.
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    Slightly better. I managed to get them all off without breaking my cheek weld this time.
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    I just got word that the other club I'm a member at is finally able to open their 300 yard range (covid nonsense) Friday, AAAAND I'm can lay down prone there.
     
    Last edited:
    Well, I’ve been reading, and watching, and listening, and implementing, and today I finally got to lay down and shoot a couple groups at 300 yards to further test that slower node load.
    The three shots by my finger were the first 3 shots on paper after confirming my ES over the chronograph. The next two shots just weren’t right. I broke the trigger when I shouldn’t have. Still sub moa. Ok.
    What happened on the next target feels like magic...
    They’re not 10 shot groups, those are fucking hard to keep it together for, but the more I shoot this load, the more I’m confident it’s better than I am.
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    Nice! Discounting the two pulled shots, the vertical dispersion in both groups is fairly narrow.
    Thanks. It does look as though it should stay pretty tight vertically as long as I can keep my end together.
    I’m really looking forward to getting a chance to stretch this out even further. I don’t know when that might happen, but I feel like this is the load to do it with.
    It’s pretty slow for 140gr Hybrids in 6.5CM, but I think the rest of the advantages outweigh that disadvantage. I have a 30moa rail and 26mils of total travel on my PMII. I guess where I’ll fall short is hitting transonic that much earlier. I may never have an opportunity to shoot that far anyway.
     
    What do you guys deem acceptable? Not ideal, but acceptable?
    Came out in the heat and humidity today to test this same load.

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    Acceptable for prs/practical shooting: <20 sd and <50es.

    Not ideal obviously. But except for the longer range stuff, you won’t miss with those numbers.

    I want to see <10 sd and <25 es ideally.
     
    Acceptable for prs/practical shooting: <20 sd and <50es.

    Not ideal obviously. But except for the longer range stuff, you won’t miss with those numbers.

    I want to see <10 sd and <25 es ideally.
    I chrony’d my 260 for 25 shots today.
    sd of 11 and es of 28 I think.
    That was with brand new brass so I’m optimistic it will get better and match my last batch of brass.

    My 7 saum is getting a bit worse now (10-12SD), the barrel is getting long in the tooth for sure.
    My vertical at 2000+ is still quite good and I attribute that to the excellent Berger LRHT bullets.
     
    Awesome. Thanks guys.
     
    I don’t care if I have to shoot with the Magnetospeed attached all the time to keep this type of accuracy and precision. I’ll consider it my barrel tuner.
    Stepped it up to 41.0gr of H4350, CBTO 2.175” with the same 140gr Bergers. Found another 500 of the same lot. Running an ES of 17 so meh, avg velocity is 2756fps.
    4 different charge weights on the page.
    The extreme low flyer on target two left the barrel 535fps slower than the other 4 on that load. Clearly I messed something up at the bench on that round.

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    Last edited:
    If they hold a fairly flat vertical dispersion at 300yds/meters, they probably will stay reasonably steady at 1K.

    If it ends up falling apart at 1k, it’ll be the BC variance from bullet to bullet (or shooter error).
     
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    I’d really love to get to shoot 1000 some time. The closest I see myself getting this year is 800, which I guess is close enough and will allow me to true my Kestrel...
     
    I was finally able to conceive Mrs. Tokay to shoot, “the big rifle”. She was happy to learn the bark was greater than the bite, having only shot my son’s Savage .22LR before. Pretty good listener too.
    I think she did alright!
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    I don’t want to start a new thread and clog things up.
    I realize the field of view is a bit narrow and you can’t see my body, but any pointers from what you can see, besides being ugly as fuck?
    I love the science behind making my own quality ammo, but I’d also like to be the best shooter I can be as well.
    I’m getting my ducks in a row here to become an online training member, but figured I could take some free advice for what it’s worth first.
     
    Looks like a jointed trigger finger instead of a 90 (some people shoot well with jointed). And your finger didn’t come completely off the trigger, but it looked like it didn’t keep the trigger pinned to rear.

    That’s all I saw. Nothing major
     
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    Looks like a jointed trigger finger instead of a 90 (some people shoot well with jointed). And your finger didn’t come completely off the trigger, but it looked like it didn’t keep the trigger pinned to rear.

    That’s all I saw. Nothing major
    I saw the same thing on the trigger.
    I like to envision the tigger is the accelerator pedal in drag race.
    Once you gas it keep it gassed the whole race.

    Recoil pulse looks good.
    Straight back.
     
    I do mentally say “squeeeeeeeeeze” and try not to let off the trigger until I hear my impact. It’s a Triggertech Diamond, so there’s no discernible travel.
    I think the draft angle of the stock is what promotes my jointed finger. In order to grip and pull the stock into my shoulder, my index isn’t long enough to make that 90°, and I seem to shoot smaller groups when I pull the rifle into myself. I want to try the 90 again now that I have a little more time behind the rifle, but it doesn’t allow me to grip the stock. That’s for sure.
    Thanks guys!