Advanced Marksmanship Help improve my groups

[Afy]

Off late I seem to be having incosistent groups, where I seem to be pulling shot number 2 or shot number 3 consistently.
The rifle I am using is a .260 remington, built on a Savage, using a 1:8 27 Lothar Walther barrel. Am shooting off a rest and rear bag, and do not allow the barrel to heat up significantly.
The examples below are at 100 meters. My suspicion is inconsistent trigger pull or I am changing my grip ever so slightly... any ideas and help would be much appreciated.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Help improve my groups

What is there to improve, other than your posting of photography?

 

[Blanman]

Re: Help improve my groups

try shooting lowlight's dot drill target

 

[Luke]

Re: Help improve my groups

Try shooting at something other than paper at 100yds. You'll find you overthink things when you start seeing your bullets land on top of each other through the scope.

I gave up trying to make little one hole groups at 100yds. My rifle is a tactical style field rifle and was never built for or meant to be used for benchrest style group shooting. As long as it will keep the rounds around 1 MOA out to 1k it has done it's job.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Help improve my groups

Well said Luke!!! What else could you ask for in a Tactical Rifle??

1moa to 1K, if we could all keep that consistent who would ever shoot groups, lol

 

[NaHa]

Re: Help improve my groups

1) Make sure there's no parallax in your scope image.

2) Let somebody else shoot the rifle for groups. If they don't have that pesky flier, then it's you.

 

[gunman_7]

Re: Help improve my groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1)

2) Let somebody else shoot the rifle for groups. If they don't have that pesky flier, then it's you.

</div></div>Bingo, my first reaction to any issue on a proven load/rifle, just make sure they know there way around a quality rifle also.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Help improve my groups

Your targets look like our targets. It seems you're looking for them to all be inside the same hole. There are folks who shoot like that nearly all the time. They just aren't us. They are Benchrest Shooters, and they tend to be a tad obsessive, IMHO. We're (I hope) not.

Your marksmanship, from a practical viewpoint, is at least good enough.

My advice would be to accept what you've got, and get on with enjoying your shooting, rather than obsessing over minor imperfections. Don't turn it into a task, and an impossible one at that.

Perfection is not possible, and demanding perfection of one's self is the surest way I know to turn fun into frustration.

1MOA is OK, 1/2MOA is better, and smaller than that is not necessary. Not for what we do.

Greg

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Help improve my groups

+1 to Greg's advice. You are taking the enjoyment out of this hobby of yours by being too picky.

Shoot farther ranges and get practical experience. Once you get better at the long range shooting then come back to the 100 meter groups and your shooting will probably have improved enough to get you the results you desire.

 

[Afy]

Re: Help improve my groups

I guess I will go shoot more and report back. Thank you everyone.

 

[Dave-O]

Re: Help improve my groups

Is it me, or is that flier always in the same spot?

Is that flier the first shot of the string on a cold bore?

 

[nesikabay]

Re: Help improve my groups

It looks like he needs one of your Montana barrels on a service rifle. You said they would shoot 1/8 MOA groups. I still have not heard from you on my offer to see one of your 1/8 MOA groups with a service rifle. But my offer still stands<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is there to improve, other than your posting of photography? </div></div>

 

[oughtsix]

Re: Help improve my groups

I would have guessed cold bore on the flier as well.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Help improve my groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It looks like he needs one of your Montana barrels on a service rifle. You said they would shoot 1/8 MOA groups. I still have not heard from you on my offer to see one of your 1/8 MOA groups with a service rifle. But my offer still stands<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is there to improve, other than your posting of photography? </div></div></div></div>

Let me remind you, while helping a junior shooter square things with his new DMPS match conditioned service rifle, a group, barely bigger than the diameter of a single bullet hole, was produced. This was not appreciated in the manner you would understand, as shooting "service rifle", it's not about groups, but rather, strings and placement. Nevertheless, I was impressed, not with the basic marksmanship that made such a group possible, but instead, with what appeared to be a very good barrel. It was my impression that this Montana Rifleman barrel was so good, maybe it was unusual. This made me wonder about the luck others were having with this brand. That's it, end of story. In other words, my comments were not meant to bolster recognition of my shooting skills, I don't need to do that as my record speaks for itself.

BTW, if you had any understanding of the first principle of marksmanship, you'd know that iron sights, when mastered, allow for results often indistinguishable from results that could be produced using a day optic.

 

[chris112]

Re: Help improve my groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) 2) Let somebody else shoot the rifle for groups. If they don't have that pesky flier, then it's you.

</div></div>

That is also my first thought. At the same time, those look like 1/2" groups even with the flier which isn't half bad. Get rid of the flier and they would be under 3/8".

 

[Robert DiGiorgio]

Re: Help improve my groups

Just my two cents...most likely you are flinching and not even realizing it. I know it is very hard to accept at first but i used to have the same problem and this is how i got my flinching under control. Take your rifle and place a quarter on the end of the barrel, dry fire your rifle(with a cap to provent damage) if the quarter falls, YOU ARE FLINCHING. Keep practicing this until you get consistant...then once you feel comfortable switch off to a dime(this gets really tricky) once you can get consistant with the dime, your in business. However, it looks like your shooting is already good to say the least but this little test can benefit even the most seasoned shooters!

 

[doc76251]

Re: Help improve my groups

Just as a thunk. Dial your elevation down or up about 2 MOA and shoot your group. It looks to me like you are blowing away your aiming point and you are bleeding into your group. I would have guessed 3rd or 4th shot tho. If you realy want to check, dial up about 20 MOA and shoot a group where you can't see it. You'd be suprised how bad we mind fuck ourselves with groups.

Then go shoot Lowlight's targets.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Help improve my groups

My rifle is very nearly identical to his, including the L-W barrel and Savage action.

I would move the target out to 200m and see if the pattern repeats. If it does, it's the rifle; if it doesn't it could well be an issue involving cheekweld and parallax at the 100m distance that self-resolves at 200m.

Do a search for 'parallax' on this site within the past two months, and methods for finding and fixing parallax problems will come up. I'd repeat it here, but the info is a bit extensive.

Oh, heck, why be a grinch, here it is.

Another trick is to make a target with a very small aiming points, and adjust the groups to appear offset somewhat; so they don't obliterate the aiming points.

Greg

 

[Afy]

Re: Help improve my groups

Combination of poor trigger control and too hard a fore bag.
I had my fore bag filled with #7 Lead shot... have switched to play sand and the results are a lot better.

Also am using the coin trick to improve my trigger control.. using dry fire routines.

Thank you everyone...

 

[JRose]

Re: Help improve my groups

FYI, I implemented some of the trigger control tips I learned on the online training, and my groups CONSISTENTLY improved A LOT today.

That being said, your groups are fine.


Dry fire with your scope on the lowest power at a target relatively close (25 yards or so). Doing this exposed my poor trigger form, I could see myself pulling the cross hair ever so lightly off target.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Help improve my groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Afy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Combination of poor trigger control and too hard a fore bag.
I had my fore bag filled with #7 Lead shot... have switched to play sand and the results are a lot better.
</div></div>

So I guess the next question is do you want to get good at bench rest shooting or tactical / field shooting? At a bench with front and rear bags is going to get you good at benchrest style, but might be detrimental to field marksmanship when you don't have these things. Montana Marine has a wonderful thread in this forum about sling-supported positions... just great. It is a different kind of support than front and rear bags, but is very portable and infinitely useful.

I am not really saying that there aren't transferable skills going from the bench to positions... you nailed it with trigger control, something that applies to all marksmanship... but eventually, it might be helpful to try some of the other positions that are more adaptable to the field. I think all of the posts above assumed you wanted to be a tactical shooter. Maybe not, which is fine...

 

[TCA4570]

Re: Help improve my groups

Greg and Sub are both right.

I usually shoot 100-200 again after longer ranges.
Clean and crank to values. one shot. Adjust to put next shot opposite. 3rd goes horizontal,and verticle to first two.
It's only a short walk to measure.(five shots to do only.)
Five for group, and hand to buddy.(He gets five.)
Hand to next.(same thing)
One or two buddies is all that should be used.
I shoot the last five with a warm gun.

Only takes 20-25 rounds, and it is a good time.

 

[Afy]

Re: Help improve my groups

Actually am shooting off bags, bipod, sling only... seated or standing. Cant do prone due to medical reasons. (Bad ulcers and hernia etc).
and with my Vz... irons and sling only.(Not really good at it... but can hit a target).
Also doing the target from Lowlight... shooting at snail shells, empty 12 GA casings etc.
Working on the skills... but my shooting is currently constrained due to work travel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Help improve my groups

Yeah, I read you, been where I couldn't do prone for a year or two, a coupla times (Staging Laporotomies, five years apart). Got the belly back, but now I'm dealing with a healing fractured upper left humerus, and some messy shoulder joint damage. Makes slung and prone a yet to be achieved maybe. I keep trying. Someday...

Look, there's no reason you can't do both, except maybe time and money, and we all have that problem. I started out at the bench, then went to National Match Highpower. Now I'm coming off several years worth of 1000yd F Class, and right now we're doing something kinda gestational involving 200yd, F Class rules, and a homebrewed "V"-type target.

It's all fun, while it's fun, and when its not, there's always something else...

For me, it's about the people, not the targets...; I just keep making great friends. Can't seem to go wrong....

Greg

 

[Afy]

Re: Help improve my groups

Well went shooting again. Unfortunately ahvent been to the range in over a month. Had some Moly Scenar's lying around ... so loaded them up. Rainy weather... barrel squeaky clean... winds gusting upto 30 mph...so I just shot groups...

BTW the barrel is 2700+ at this stage [all measurements are edge to edge at their widest]