Help!!! Is my barrel junk?

bbhank

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I need some help guys.

I have a Howa 1500 with a Preferred Barrels Howage barrel. Its an 8 twist 6.5 creed in a KRG Bravo Stock with an Area 419 break and Jard Trigger.

I started this load development with 130 and 140 Berger hybrids without any real good results, Between the 20 charges(combined) with those projectiles I had maybe 4 Single digit SD's and even less groups under 7/8".

Now a little back ground on my experiences. I own Louisiana Precision .308 that shoots in the teens all day, I also own a RPR with a PVA barrel that shoots .35" groups all day. So I think I can shoot and I think know how to do load development.

And now my problem. I ran 142 SMKs with H4350 and BR4 primers from 41.1- 42 grains and got a tone of single digit SD strings but nothing printed under 7/8" group.

So I picked the 5 best loads to validate their performance and to see if maybe shooter fatigue may have played a role in the poor group sizes. I also wanted to test small magnum primers because I hear they can provide lower SD's.

When I did this the data kind of shocked me there is a bunch of inconsistency in the numbers. Three of the charge weights seem to be fairly similar results but the other 2 are way off and i was curious what you guys thought about it. I would expect the barrel to be fairly consistent or is that not the case.

For shooting conditions everything was the same except ambient temp was up about 12 degrees from initial test to primer test day. But all shooting was done in the same time frame and the rifle and ammo were in shade for the duration of both testing periods.

I was hoping that this barrel would be at least a 1/2" group gun but maybe my expectations are too high for this barrel.

Here is the data what do you guys think?

142 Sierra MatchKing
Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
41.16.4515.842701.55BR-4
41.25.2814.892703.57BR-4
41.37.7219.552723.29BR-4
41.416.2340.522720.59BR-4
41.59.5122.092719.67BR-4
41.63.768.862735.09BR-4
41.79.5424.592740BR-4
41.84.2410.032759.28BR-4
41.94.9711.262746.68BR-4
4211.0922.262764.08BR-4
142 Sierra MatchKing
Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
41.15.6162711Mag SMR
41.15.7142718BR-4
41.25.3132708Mag SMR
41.213.2352756BR-4
41.610.5222741Mag SMR
41.616.4392749BR-4
41.810.2282757Mag SMR
41.82.982762BR-4
41.910.4252764Mag SMR
41.912.9332668BR-4

Thanks,
 

bbhank

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Try a different bullet. .1 grain increments are a waste of powder and time. JMHO. Good luck.
I understand the process, I was asking if anyone understood the inconsistency of these particular data sets?

I do tenth test because I can use the trigger time any way. Our long range shooting season on the West Coast is only about 5 months out of the year when the desert is not scorching hot.
 

918v

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I would try 41.5 and play with coal in .005” increments until the groups shrink and then mess around with powder charge a little more.
 

bbhank

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If it’s the Bergers you want, start around .040” off the lands
I couldn't get the berger's jump below .160" because of the magazine length restriction. The chamber is Saami spec chamber with a .199" freebore. I use a hornaday comparator for the measurements. i cant get to .040 unless i single feed, and i don't want that
 
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nn8734

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    I need some help guys.

    I have a Howa 1500 with a Preferred Barrels Howage barrel. Its an 8 twist 6.5 creed in a KRG Bravo Stock with an Area 419 break and Jard Trigger.

    I started this load development with 130 and 140 Berger hybrids without any real good results, Between the 20 charges(combined) with those projectiles I had maybe 4 Single digit SD's and even less groups under 7/8".

    Now a little back ground on my experiences. I own Louisiana Precision .308 that shoots in the teens all day, I also own a RPR with a PVA barrel that shoots .35" groups all day. So I think I can shoot and I think know how to do load development.

    And now my problem. I ran 142 SMKs with H4350 and BR4 primers from 41.1- 42 grains and got a tone of single digit SD strings but nothing printed under 7/8" group.

    So I picked the 5 best loads to validate their performance and to see if maybe shooter fatigue may have played a role in the poor group sizes. I also wanted to test small magnum primers because I hear they can provide lower SD's.

    When I did this the data kind of shocked me there is a bunch of inconsistency in the numbers. Three of the charge weights seem to be fairly similar results but the other 2 are way off and i was curious what you guys thought about it. I would expect the barrel to be fairly consistent or is that not the case.

    For shooting conditions everything was the same except ambient temp was up about 12 degrees from initial test to primer test day. But all shooting was done in the same time frame and the rifle and ammo were in shade for the duration of both testing periods.

    I was hoping that this barrel would be at least a 1/2" group gun but maybe my expectations are too high for this barrel.

    Here is the data what do you guys think?

    142 Sierra MatchKing
    Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
    41.16.4515.842701.55BR-4
    41.25.2814.892703.57BR-4
    41.37.7219.552723.29BR-4
    41.416.2340.522720.59BR-4
    41.59.5122.092719.67BR-4
    41.63.768.862735.09BR-4
    41.79.5424.592740BR-4
    41.84.2410.032759.28BR-4
    41.94.9711.262746.68BR-4
    4211.0922.262764.08BR-4
    142 Sierra MatchKing
    Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
    41.15.6162711Mag SMR
    41.15.7142718BR-4
    41.25.3132708Mag SMR
    41.213.2352756BR-4
    41.610.5222741Mag SMR
    41.616.4392749BR-4
    41.810.2282757Mag SMR
    41.82.982762BR-4
    41.910.4252764Mag SMR
    41.912.9332668BR-4

    Thanks,
    A few mistakes many reloaders make:

    1) thinking there is a relationship between MV consistency (SD/ES) and group size

    2) Prematurely drawing conclusions about a given load recipe based on insufficient sample testing (SD/ES numbers cannot be used to make inferences about a given load unless you shoot at least 30 rounds of the same recipe over your chrono / lab radar - you should only be looking at MV initially (look at SD/ES once you’ve tested at least 30 rounds of what you believe to be your final load and are ready to put that load into low rate initial production)

    3) Seating hybrid Bullets too close to the lands (Berger / Hornady / Sierra hybrid type bullets like jump!)

    4) Mis-attribution of sub standard groups solely to the load recipe as opposed to considering the shooter may also be playing a role.
     

    Ledzep

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    Try RL-16 and/or a different bullet. Being that none of what you've shot is under 7/8" I'd guess that there's something wonky with bedding, optics, or barrel attachment, OR if those thing check out it's a just non-shooting barrel.

    +1 for sample size being why your results seem erratic. For SD to be useful it assumes a normal distribution and in my experience the data sets for MV don't start looking "normal" until minimum 16-18 shots in. 30-50 is pretty solid.

    Do a little research on SD and how it's calculated and used. 5 shots just isn't enough sample data to make reasonable judgements on the population. You probably have "true" SD's in the 8-11fps range and small sample size is giving you a +/- 7fps error window on that.

    If a guy does 20 shot strings for velocity, the SD numbers start landing right in line from test to test.
     

    Newbie2020

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    +1 for sample size being why your results seem erratic. For SD to be useful it assumes a normal distribution and in my experience the data sets for MV don't start looking "normal" until minimum 16-18 shots in. 30-50 is pretty solid.

    Do a little research on SD and how it's calculated and used. 5 shots just isn't enough sample data to make reasonable judgements on the population. You probably have "true" SD's in the 8-11fps range and small sample size is giving you a +/- 7fps error window on that.

    If a guy does 20 shot strings for velocity, the SD numbers start landing right in line from test to test.
    @Ledzep can we clone this for every reloading thread on the hide? Gold.
     
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    308sako

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    Maybe we are missing the boat here! Perhaps it isn't the shooter or the various loads, but rather the rifle.

    Is the firing pin indentation in the center of the fired primer?

    If you dry fire the rifle do the crosshairs "jump?"

    Have you played with the torque on the bedding screws?

    When you run a tight patch through the bore does it feel like it is skipping anywhere along the way?

    If you trust yourself, and your ammunition what else is left to check.
     

    nn8734

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    Maybe we are missing the boat here! Perhaps it isn't the shooter or the various loads, but rather the rifle.

    Is the firing pin indentation in the center of the fired primer?

    If you dry fire the rifle do the crosshairs "jump?"

    Have you played with the torque on the bedding screws?

    When you run a tight patch through the bore does it feel like it is skipping anywhere along the way?

    If you trust yourself, and your ammunition what else is left to check.
    if it’s a rifle system problem, all ammo (factory or hand loads) would shoot really poorly; groups would be huge (in extreme cases the rifle wouldn’t even stay on paper). Scope/mount/rings issues would show up as poi all over the place from shot to shot, failure to track, etc.

    Absent these and other obvious symptoms of a flawed system, it’s not the first thing I’m thinking about if struggling with load development.

    Nothing in the OP’s posts lead me to believe we have the information necessary to condemn the barrel (or broader rifle system). We do have information that suggests there are opportunities to change/add to the load development process in use by the OP.
     
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    Steel head

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    I couldn't get the berger's jump below .160" because of the magazine length restriction. The chamber is Saami spec chamber with a .199" freebore. I use a hornaday comparator for the measurements. i cant get to .040 unless i single feed, and i don't want that
    Berger’s will happily jump that far.
    Get a load under 1 moa with a decent ES, be happy and go shootin!
     

    djarecke

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    Who cares what your ES is? If you had a low SD or ES, would you feel better about the gun not grouping well?

    If the rifle does not tune in easily with a few different well known loads, then yes - your barrel is junk.
     

    Ledzep

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    Yeah I agree with a previous comment about separating good ES/SD with good groups. ES has to be absolutely heinous to cause poor groups at 100yd. I've seen 150fps ES shoot well and 30fps ES shoot poopoo at 100yd.

    End of the day if very little in the way of 5 shot groups are eeking under 1 MOA with two different (good) bullets and H4350 in a 6.5 Creedmoor, something is up.
     

    RldrNewby

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    I’m relatively new to reloading, but have seen first hand where seating depth changes can really tighten my groups up. I have a long throat in my rifle, and can’t jam or even get 20thou off & still use a mag. Have had good luck starting about 5thou short of mag length in COL, figuring out what that relates to in CBTO for that bullet, and then loading 3 shot strings starting at Max Mag Length CBTO, and seating each subsequent string 5thou deeper, going all the way to literature recommended seating depth for the bullet I’m shooting, & maybe 10-15 deeper. I haven’t tried any deeper than that bc I don’t know if it’s safe to get too deep into the neck, or compress what normally wouldn’t be a compressed charge. Anyhow, that’s worked good for me. So far, I’ve been able to see a clear better performer at one or more of those CBTOs. My understanding is that no matter how far you are from lands, we’re in essence basically looking for a point in a more or less constant sin wave where the bullet is exiting the barrel with the least amount of interference from the barrel harmonics. I may be off on my understanding of it, but regardless of how it works, I have found seating depths at mag length & shorter that really tightened my groups up. Don’t give up just yet, and good luck to you!
     
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    bbhank

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    A few mistakes many reloaders make:

    1) thinking there is a relationship between MV consistency (SD/ES) and group size

    2) Prematurely drawing conclusions about a given load recipe based on insufficient sample testing (SD/ES numbers cannot be used to make inferences about a given load unless you shoot at least 30 rounds of the same recipe over your chrono / lab radar - you should only be looking at MV initially (look at SD/ES once you’ve tested at least 30 rounds of what you believe to be your final load and are ready to put that load into low rate initial production)

    3) Seating hybrid Bullets too close to the lands (Berger / Hornady / Sierra hybrid type bullets like jump!)

    4) Mis-attribution of sub standard groups solely to the load recipe as opposed to considering the shooter may also be playing a role.
    This is great info thank you!
     

    bbhank

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    if it’s a rifle system problem, all ammo (factory or hand loads) would shoot really poorly; groups would be huge (in extreme cases the rifle wouldn’t even stay on paper). Scope/mount/rings issues would show up as poi all over the place from shot to shot, failure to track, etc.

    Absent these and other obvious symptoms of a flawed system, it’s not the first thing I’m thinking about if struggling with load development.

    Nothing in the OP’s posts lead me to believe we have the information necessary to condemn the barrel (or broader rifle system). We do have information that suggests there are opportunities to change/add to the load development process in use by the OP.
    As far as the rifle is concerned the actions screws were torqued with a borka torque wrench prior to each firing. The scope mounts and base appear to be solid)
     

    bbhank

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    Berger’s will happily jump that far.
    Get a load under 1 moa with a decent ES, be happy and go shootin!
    My factory Remington 700 dps tactical I paid 569 for shot 1\2" groups. The $480 custom barrel needs to do at least that, and this one doesn't yet
     

    nn8734

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    As far as the rifle is concerned the actions screws were torqued with a borka torque wrench prior to each firing. The scope mounts and base appear to be solid)
    Yea, I wouldn't look to the rifle itself, scope or mount as being at issue unless you observe (or have observed) something wild/crazy when shooting the rifle. Whether the rifle is capable of the level of precision you expect of it is another matter but, again that would be a premature assessment at this point, i think.

    More than likely, additional development is needed (conducting seating depth trials with your 142 SMKs/H4350 combo, for instance) to bring in the rifle's performance into alignment with your expectations insofar as group size. Once you have that dialed in, produce 20-30 rounds and fire over your chrono to assess MV consistency. From there, if the numbers themselves are still way too high, you can perform regression back through your production process to find the drivers and fix accordingly.

    As an aside, you can always conduct a tall-target tracking test if you wanted to definitively rule in/out any problems with the optic. I do that every time I purchase a new (to me or otherwise) scope at the time I initially zero it on the rifle.
     
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    Steel head

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    My factory Remington 700 dps tactical I paid 569 for shot 1\2" groups. The $480 custom barrel needs to do at least that, and this one doesn't yet
    No it doesn’t.
    It would be nice but doesn’t always happen.
    $480 custom barrel is obviously not a top tier barrel.
    The better the blank the better the odds.

    All four of my cut rifled barrels have been awesome.

    I’ve had 6 Shilen prefits now, two were hammers and the rest were adequate or better.
    I had no problems shooting them till they died.

    My two best Shilens really turned on at about 300+ shots.


    If your unhappy with it then talk to your barrel supplier.
    As you can probably tell from my earlier comment I’d probably just happily shoot it out al long as it was always moa or better and I can get a single digit SD.
     

    bbhank

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    No it doesn’t.
    It would be nice but doesn’t always happen.
    $480 custom barrel is obviously not a top tier barrel.
    The better the blank the better the odds.

    All four of my cut rifled barrels have been awesome.

    I’ve had 6 Shilen prefits now, two were hammers and the rest were adequate or better.
    I had no problems shooting them till they died.

    My two best Shilens really turned on at about 300+ shots.


    If your unhappy with it then talk to your barrel supplier.
    As you can probably tell from my earlier comment I’d probably just happily shoot it out al long as it was always moa or better and I can get a single digit SD.
    Thanks SH. I'm not unhappy yet but but I'm heading there. I appreciate your input. Im not chasing perfect I'm chasing better. some one suggested testing seating depth you think that will help tighten up the groups?
     

    Punkur67

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    I'm mag fed and in order to fit in the magazine I am .028 off the lands
    I couldn't get the berger's jump below .160" because of the magazine length restriction. The chamber is Saami spec chamber with a .199" freebore. I use a hornaday comparator for the measurements. i cant get to .040 unless i single feed, and i don't want that
    I am a bit confused here. You say you can't jump .040 without single feeding but stated you are .028 off the lands. So are you loading .028 off the lands? That would be a longer overall length and would need to be single fed too. I jump all my bergers .060 to .090 due to mag lengths and they like it. Try more jump on the bergers and see what happens
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Who cares what your ES is? If you had a low SD or ES, would you feel better about the gun not grouping well?

    If the rifle does not tune in easily with a few different well known loads, then yes - your barrel is junk.

    Pretty much this.

    If I had barrel that wouldn’t shoot Berger 130 or 140’s after adjusting seating depth, I’d either throw it in the trash or be asking for a replacement barrel.
     

    paulwardd

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    I'd try shooting without the brake just to see... On some of my lighter recoiling rifles where its really not needed I've noticed I shoot considerably better without it. Don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it like barrel harmonics or what or it's just something weird with me as a shooter but for the sake of experimenting I wouldn't leave the possibility out of the picture
     

    Dthomas3523

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    I'd try shooting without the brake just to see... On some of my lighter recoiling rifles where its really not needed I've noticed I shoot considerably better without it. Don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it like barrel harmonics or what or it's just something weird with me as a shooter but for the sake of experimenting I wouldn't leave the possibility out of the picture

    Unless something is wrong with the brake, it’s because you removed a weight on the end of the muzzle.

    Seating depth has same effect.
     

    bbhank

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    Pretty much this.

    If I had barrel that wouldn’t shoot Berger 130 or 140’s after adjusting seating depth, I’d either throw it in the trash or be asking for a replacement barrel.
    When i started with the load development for the 130 bergers i only 2-3 charges out of 20 that had single digit sd's. Same with the 140, 2-3 groups within 20 that had single digit Sd's. I had way better performance with the 142SMK's out of my RPR than that, so i decided to load them up and in the first 10 loads i had 8 with single digit SD's it is clear that the barrel likes the SMK's better.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    When i started with the load development for the 130 bergers i only 2-3 charges out of 20 that had single digit sd's. Same with the 140, 2-3 groups within 20 that had single digit Sd's. I had way better performance with the 142SMK's out of my RPR than that, so i decided to load them up and in the first 10 loads i had 8 with single digit SD's it is clear that the barrel likes the SMK's better.

    Again, any barrel that won’t run Bergers…..it’s either junk and not worth the time, or it’s user error.

    With bullets and such being so good, the time spend trying to find a bullet a crappy shooting barrel likes….just isn’t worth the effort unless you’re on a budget and can’t afford another barrel or you just like tinkering. Even then, buying a bunch of bullets will cost money and time.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    When i started with the load development for the 130 bergers i only 2-3 charges out of 20 that had single digit sd's. Same with the 140, 2-3 groups within 20 that had single digit Sd's. I had way better performance with the 142SMK's out of my RPR than that, so i decided to load them up and in the first 10 loads i had 8 with single digit SD's it is clear that the barrel likes the SMK's better.

    Also, your chrono readings have almost nothing to do with how a barrel with shoot a bullet inside 300yds.

    I’d revisit your thought and loading process.
     
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    Again, any barrel that won’t run Bergers…..it’s either junk and not worth the time, or it’s user error.

    With bullets and such being so good, the time spend trying to find a bullet a crappy shooting barrel likes….just isn’t worth the effort unless you’re on a budget and can’t afford another barrel or you just like tinkering. Even then, buying a bunch of bullets will cost money and time.
    You have to admit the first paragraph is purely subjective and bordering on fanboy.
     

    The4GunGuy

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    I need some help guys.

    I have a Howa 1500 with a Preferred Barrels Howage barrel. Its an 8 twist 6.5 creed in a KRG Bravo Stock with an Area 419 break and Jard Trigger.

    I started this load development with 130 and 140 Berger hybrids without any real good results, Between the 20 charges(combined) with those projectiles I had maybe 4 Single digit SD's and even less groups under 7/8".

    Now a little back ground on my experiences. I own Louisiana Precision .308 that shoots in the teens all day, I also own a RPR with a PVA barrel that shoots .35" groups all day. So I think I can shoot and I think know how to do load development.

    And now my problem. I ran 142 SMKs with H4350 and BR4 primers from 41.1- 42 grains and got a tone of single digit SD strings but nothing printed under 7/8" group.

    So I picked the 5 best loads to validate their performance and to see if maybe shooter fatigue may have played a role in the poor group sizes. I also wanted to test small magnum primers because I hear they can provide lower SD's.

    When I did this the data kind of shocked me there is a bunch of inconsistency in the numbers. Three of the charge weights seem to be fairly similar results but the other 2 are way off and i was curious what you guys thought about it. I would expect the barrel to be fairly consistent or is that not the case.

    For shooting conditions everything was the same except ambient temp was up about 12 degrees from initial test to primer test day. But all shooting was done in the same time frame and the rifle and ammo were in shade for the duration of both testing periods.

    I was hoping that this barrel would be at least a 1/2" group gun but maybe my expectations are too high for this barrel.

    Here is the data what do you guys think?

    142 Sierra MatchKing
    Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
    41.16.4515.842701.55BR-4
    41.25.2814.892703.57BR-4
    41.37.7219.552723.29BR-4
    41.416.2340.522720.59BR-4
    41.59.5122.092719.67BR-4
    41.63.768.862735.09BR-4
    41.79.5424.592740BR-4
    41.84.2410.032759.28BR-4
    41.94.9711.262746.68BR-4
    4211.0922.262764.08BR-4
    142 Sierra MatchKing
    Grains of PowderStandard DiviationExtreme SpreadAverage VelocityPrimer
    41.15.6162711Mag SMR
    41.15.7142718BR-4
    41.25.3132708Mag SMR
    41.213.2352756BR-4
    41.610.5222741Mag SMR
    41.616.4392749BR-4
    41.810.2282757Mag SMR
    41.82.982762BR-4
    41.910.4252764Mag SMR
    41.912.9332668BR-4

    Thanks,
    I have a Preferred Barrel Blanks 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my Impact Precision action and have had great success with it.

    Before First: Make sure you have broken in the barrel! It took me 225 rounds for my PBB 6.5 Creedmoor to stabilize. Don't take ANY measurements until you've got about 150 rounds through it (sounds like you do, but just making sure). Too many people get a new barrel and expect .5 moa the first 10 shots. The barrel needs those 150+ rounds to break in and settle in on a speed.
    First: Stick with ONE primer. Make a choice and stick with it. Otherwise you're introducing another variable into your equation.
    Second: Go initially with .3 gr increments. Don't worry about "trigger time", you'll have plenty when you fine tune the load.
    Third: Agree that you need to make certain EVERYTHING is torqued to specs, from your action to your scope mount and scope. ESPECIALLY YOUR BARREL IN YOUR ACTION
    Fourth: Have you made CERTAIN where your lands are located depth wise? Did you use the "Wheeler" method to find your lands? If not, then find your lands first and foremost. THAT is your starting point.
    Fifth: Using .3 gr increments, you can attack the solution in one of two ways: a) load 41.1, 41.4, 41.7, and 42.0 with a SINGLE depth of say .40 off the lands and check your numbers, then fine tuning from there; b) same loads PLUS multiple seating depths of .40, .60, .80 off the lands...Check your numbers and fine tune. Those bullets, as many have said, like to jump. They also like to run in the 2,730 - 2,780 fps range for a 6.5 Creedmoor.
    Fifth Point Five: Make sure you have built a stable position for your shots. Practice good breathing and trigger control on each shot. Take your time.
    Sixth: SD's and ES's are really when they are low (SD below 10 and ES below 20), BUT, the GROUP is what you're really after here. I would sacrifice a 20% loss in SD/ES for a tighter group. You get a .5 MOA group, be happy for now. Shoot that. Get used to it. Then you can put a tuner on the rifle and really tune that barrel.
    Seventh: Now that you have that .5 MOA group, start looking at your dope in the trans-sonic range...find it, and everything will fall into place from that distance on in.
    Eighth: If all the above doesn't give you good groups and numbers, call PBB and talk to them. You might just have gotten a lemon.

    Just my thoughts here...Hope it helps.
     
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    bbhank

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    I have a Preferred Barrel Blanks 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my Impact Precision action and have had great success with it.

    Before First: Make sure you have broken in the barrel! It took me 225 rounds for my PBB 6.5 Creedmoor to stabilize. Don't take ANY measurements until you've got about 150 rounds through it (sounds like you do, but just making sure). Too many people get a new barrel and expect .5 moa the first 10 shots. The barrel needs those 150+ rounds to break in and settle in on a speed.
    First: Stick with ONE primer. Make a choice and stick with it. Otherwise you're introducing another variable into your equation.
    Second: Go initially with .3 gr increments. Don't worry about "trigger time", you'll have plenty when you fine tune the load.
    Third: Agree that you need to make certain EVERYTHING is torqued to specs, from your action to your scope mount and scope. ESPECIALLY YOUR BARREL IN YOUR ACTION
    Fourth: Have you made CERTAIN where your lands are located depth wise? Did you use the "Wheeler" method to find your lands? If not, then find your lands first and foremost. THAT is your starting point.
    Fifth: Using .3 gr increments, you can attack the solution in one of two ways: a) load 41.1, 41.4, 41.7, and 42.0 with a SINGLE depth of say .40 off the lands and check your numbers, then fine tuning from there; b) same loads PLUS multiple seating depths of .40, .60, .80 off the lands...Check your numbers and fine tune. Those bullets, as many have said, like to jump. They also like to run in the 2,730 - 2,780 fps range for a 6.5 Creedmoor.
    Fifth Point Five: Make sure you have built a stable position for your shots. Practice good breathing and trigger control on each shot. Take your time.
    Sixth: SD's and ES's are really when they are low (SD below 10 and ES below 20), BUT, the GROUP is what you're really after here. I would sacrifice a 20% loss in SD/ES for a tighter group. You get a .5 MOA group, be happy for now. Shoot that. Get used to it. Then you can put a tuner on the rifle and really tune that barrel.
    Seventh: Now that you have that .5 MOA group, start looking at your dope in the trans-sonic range...find it, and everything will fall into place from that distance on in.
    Eighth: If all the above doesn't give you good groups and numbers, call PBB and talk to them. You might just have gotten a lemon.

    Just my thoughts here...Hope it helps.
    This is great info. My process and yours are different but get to the same place. I am going to bullet seat test 41.8 grains as it is the only charge to run really well twice in a row and see if that tightens up the groups.

    I found the lands with a hornaday comparator at zero round count. So I will recheck it now that I have the barrel broke in and start from there!
     

    Mauser06

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    What is with the chronograph crutch I see over and over here?


    There is no EASY button. There is no substitute for learning your barrel and tuning a load for it.


    Different shooters have different requirements. Components are scarce and climbing in price. Put in as much as you need to get the precision you require.


    Tons of factors go into ES and SD numbers.

    Do you wanna shoot little groups? Or do you wanna see certain numbers on the chronograph? Sometimes they don't got hand n hand.
     
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    bbhank

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    What is with the chronograph crutch I see over and over here?


    There is no EASY button. There is no substitute for learning your barrel and tuning a load for it.


    Different shooters have different requirements. Components are scarce and climbing in price.


    Tons of factors go into ES and SD numbers.

    Do you wanna shoot little groups? Or do you wanna see certain numbers on the chronograph? Sometimes they don't got hand n hand.
    I want to get the most out of my barrel as possible and I know the best groups dont always corrolate to the best numbers. I'm cool with that!!!
     
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    Mauser06

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    So if you have the components, do some extensive testing. Run the chrono and log the data and pay attention...but if something shoots....it shoots.


    I know some guys that can hold their own in LR BR...they do a lot of testing...and a lot of testing at distance. 500+ they run a chronograph but not always. And they don't get wound up over flat spots and ES and SDs.


    I ran my lab the other day for 10 shots to look for a known velocity after changing some components to see if that velocity is still where it wants to shoot or not.

    10 shots... .2gr apart. ES was well over 100. I forget what off the top of my head.

    I mention it for 2 reasons. I wasn't really trying to shoot a little bug hole. I aimed but not like I normally would. Still printed 1 ragged hole that is nearly exactly MOA. I measured it for giggles.

    The other reason I mention it....there were absolutely no flat spot. Steady climb to a peak. Then a drop and then a pretty significant spike...which is a midly compressed load.

    We know speed equates to vertical at distance...so ES and SD is important. But from what I'm learning, tuned loads won't "print" what the data shows. Example...the LR BR guys I know...they shoot ladders at distance. It's not uncommon for different charges and velocities to print in a group..where the rest scatters vertically. Velocities different enough there should be vertical dispersion but it doesn't print it. It's happy there. They don't care what the numbers show. It shoots.
     
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    SDGator

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    Feb 1, 2019
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    So I've got at Howa in 6.5 Creed, and one of the things that really tightened up my groups was seating it to just a bit under mag length. It tightened it up bigtime between my ELDM loads, and then on my recent switch to Berger's its crazy how much tighter the groups got, leaving everything else the same.

    Based on that, I'm just adding a +1 to the poster who was asking about what seating depth you are using. Getting that tuned is way overlooked.
     
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    bbhank

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    Loaded up 50 round at 41.8 grains which has been the best performing load numbers wise. Started my cbto length at 2.2860 and loaded 5 round groups deeper by .003 per group. Headed to the range tomorrow to test. Stand by for results!!!!