The fact that your dumbass doesn't understand that not only will it throw a more accruate load, but will do it in half or less of the time is what everyone reading this is thinking right.
- Thread starter Pharmseller
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Oh, that's right. Unless someone has a national ranking, they don't know anything.
Riiiiight.
I'll agree that an 800 yard shot is pretty much a chip shot. That's why I shoot at the 3"steel swinger instead of the 10" plates at that distance.
What I'll disagree with is that someone needs to have a national ranking for them to be a great shooter or make their opinions worthwhile. You prove time and time again that opinions are still like assholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink like shit.
Your blanket statement that everyone in BR disciplines use Prometheus or the V3 is utter nonsense.
Like Dave said, maybe the 1k guys but it's completely unnecessary in short range BR. Different things matter to different styles of shooting.
I have lived out west and dealt with the rapidly changing conditions and the excessive winds. I learned a lot from it and that education translates to where I shoot now. I do shoot out to 2000 yards but I just have more fun from 1200 and inward.
I don't need a national ranking to be able to educate newer reloaders in what it takes to truly make great ammunition.
You're of the opinion that people have to buy their way into success.
It's just not true.
Oh we are calling people names now. lol
I think you really missed the point to where loading to the .02 of a grain doesn't really make a difference. Way too many other variables in loading to make up the difference in less then a tenth of a grain of powder. If that fine of a charge does make a difference, you might have the wrong load or might be a savant in reading what the gun likes. Even a lot of the people who own the high end throwers would even say loading to that degree doesn't make a difference. But if you want think to yourself that it does, then go right on ahead.
Both. It wasn't like a linear difference but the group size differed at distance. I typically test at 500 yards. Far enough to get some real feedback but close enough that I can actually see it somewhat. I typically test by shooting groups of 5 shots and sets of those groups. You really can't tell anything at 100 yds when 50 fps difference still groups super tight.
Do any of you have a chart for 0.02 powder incrament velocities for a popular powder ?
Considering same day, same calibration, controlled steady temperature and no air movement drafts windows, electronics, etc. to effect a standard "mid tier? ' powder dispenser.
How close do you think the charges are between that 100 round run?
We know that they do not in fact register +0.1 or actually -0.01 on that scale or the backup scale.
That leads me to the belief that some brands under controlled conditions are operating within a " 0.1" range at that time.
It may not repeat / recalibrate closer than +/- 0.1 on a different run.
I have added weight to a pan then hand trickled 1g of powder. This was devided by volume (pita) and added to a dispensed charge till the scale indicated the next 0.1g incrament.
Results (by volume) varied, and were not consistant but never exceeded needing more than the measured 0.1g .
I think that the description on several of the quality brands should include that the scale operates within a 0.1g inviroment.
+ / - 0.1g leads people to belive there is 0.2g of slop available and that has not been my result within a run.
Considering same day, same calibration, controlled steady temperature and no air movement drafts windows, electronics, etc. to effect a standard "mid tier? ' powder dispenser.
How close do you think the charges are between that 100 round run?
We know that they do not in fact register +0.1 or actually -0.01 on that scale or the backup scale.
That leads me to the belief that some brands under controlled conditions are operating within a " 0.1" range at that time.
It may not repeat / recalibrate closer than +/- 0.1 on a different run.
I have added weight to a pan then hand trickled 1g of powder. This was devided by volume (pita) and added to a dispensed charge till the scale indicated the next 0.1g incrament.
Results (by volume) varied, and were not consistant but never exceeded needing more than the measured 0.1g .
I think that the description on several of the quality brands should include that the scale operates within a 0.1g inviroment.
+ / - 0.1g leads people to belive there is 0.2g of slop available and that has not been my result within a run.
The way I look at it is just " why add SD to my SD , AND use a more difficult process when a V3 is available and it can cut your group size down and make it easier to load? Some just like beam scales or whatever, and of course that's cool, do it, but to say there's no difference isn't true. Whether it's enough difference for you is the question, and that's the case with everything in reloading.
I’m not advocating using a beam scale. But if you can get the same result from a powder thrower that works instantly or an AutoTrickler that takes 10 seconds per charge, why waste time with the AutoTrickler.
That's fair enough, if you can get the same results or it's close enough for you and you only want to shoot ball powders then cool. That makes sense to me, it's just not the option I'd choose .
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You do realize your ES is dictated by your SD right?
As in, if you know your actual ES, then you knew your SD long, long before you knew your actual ES?
Those ELR guys that preach ES don’t understand how it actually works. IE when they post their ES is 20, but their sd is 7. That’s not how it works.
Back to math class for you.
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To give you an idea……
If your ES isn’t at least 4x your SD, then your testing isn’t conclusive yet and needs more data. Either the SD or the ES isn’t valid yet.
If your ES isn’t at least 4x your SD, then your testing isn’t conclusive yet and needs more data. Either the SD or the ES isn’t valid yet.
Hey, what was that number to multiply out your SD with say a 5 shot group and get about a 95% reliable ES?
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You’d need to run a confidence interval to really know what the range is.
Simple math for 95% is to multiply your SD by 4x for 95%.
However to actually do it, you need a confidence interval.
So, let’s say you have a 5 shot string with a 5sd.
If the 5sd is actually correct, your ES is going to be 4x that 95% of the time. So 20es
However, the odds of the sd being 5 aren’t great with that small of a sample size. So the math actually shows:
We are 95% confident our SD will be somewhere between 3fps and 14fps.
That means the ES will be somewhere between 12fps and 56fps 95% of the time.
I’m not talking about ball powders. Obviously no sane person would use an AutoTrickler for a ball powder. The test I ran was with H4350.
Do you want to knock off your pathetic dick waving before I ban your dumb ass...again.
I know plenty of National level shooters, many Double Distinguished, that don't know shit about reloading. One does not equate to the other. And if you knew half as much as you thought you did, you'd already know that.
So, knock your bullshit off.
To the OP: Any quality mechanical volume based powder thrower will get the job done with a ball powder. RCBS, Hornady, Redding, hell, even a 100yr old Belding & Mull BR measure will work (actually better than most of the new ones, due to its secondary powder chamber; a very clever design that was 75yrs or so ahead of it's time). I think someone is actually making them again, but they cost more than a Harrell's. I use to pick up B&M's at gunshows and flea markets for $50-$70, since most didn't even know what they were, or they were missing the drop tube (easy to make).
That being said, if you're going to get a powder measure, it's hard to beat the repeatability of a Harrell's or Culver style measure. The "clicks" on them are repeatable, so once you get the weight you want (using a scale to check) you can just right down the number of clicks in your reloading records, and you're GTG from there on.
The Auto Trickler and Prometheus are very nice automated powder measures/scales, but they are intended mostly for cylindrical powders, which don't always meter well in the typical powder drum style measures sold by most of the major reloading vendors. Cylindrical powder kernels can also get crushed/cut when the drum rotates to close off the powder column, before rotating further to drop the charge. That crushing/cutting also causes your movement in the throw arm to stutter, throwing off the charge a little bit (as well as change how the powder settles into the powder column when the drum is rotated back up). It's very important to have smooth, consistent, repeatable throw of the powder measure to achieve consistent charges.
As far as speed, with a ball powder, it's just as fast with a Harrell's as it is with an Auto Trickler. Actually, the Harrell's is a bit faster (I use one for reloading when shooting prairie dogs, where you'll burn through anywhere from 300-700rds a day if it's a big town, and you have a small group of just 2-3 guys).
If you're just doing this (reloading .223) occasionally, you can get by without a Harrell's and just deal with the tedious readjusting of a standard mechanical drum measure. The Harrell's is more about ease in set up and repeatability.
As an aside, always remember:
Ball powders, by their nature are just easier to meter, but tend to be more sensitive to changes in charge weight.
Cylindrical powders typically are harder to meter, but are much more forgiving in charge weight variance.
As they say, there's never a free lunch.
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Minuteman
This is why all that chrono data people post isn’t very useful until extrapolated.
Let’s take two 5 shot strings of a different charge weight.
String 1: 5sd
String 2: 8sd
95% confidence:
String 1: 3fps - 14fps
String 2: 5fps - 22fps
So, as you can see, they both share a range of 5-14fps.
So, its a bit more likely the 5sd with 5 shots will perform better. It’s however far, far from a sure thing. It’s quite possible for them to perform very close to the same or even for the 8sd to perform better in the long run.
Let’s take those same numbers with a 10 shot string:
String 1: 3fps - 9fps
String 2: 6fps - 14fps
Still pretty close. 15 shot string:
String 1: 4fps - 8fps
String 2: 6fps - 13fps
And now we have something. We are 95% confident the 15 shot string with a 5sd is going to be single digit sd.
That’s how you actually need to look at your chrono data.
Let’s take two 5 shot strings of a different charge weight.
String 1: 5sd
String 2: 8sd
95% confidence:
String 1: 3fps - 14fps
String 2: 5fps - 22fps
So, as you can see, they both share a range of 5-14fps.
So, its a bit more likely the 5sd with 5 shots will perform better. It’s however far, far from a sure thing. It’s quite possible for them to perform very close to the same or even for the 8sd to perform better in the long run.
Let’s take those same numbers with a 10 shot string:
String 1: 3fps - 9fps
String 2: 6fps - 14fps
Still pretty close. 15 shot string:
String 1: 4fps - 8fps
String 2: 6fps - 13fps
And now we have something. We are 95% confident the 15 shot string with a 5sd is going to be single digit sd.
That’s how you actually need to look at your chrono data.
If you can get the same results with extruded then rock on. I couldn't, but I test a little more than most I think.
That's what I'm trying to get to. So what I did was 3 sets of 5 shot groups. I didn't it this way thinking I could average my SD then multiply it out and be fairly confident. I wouldn't mind doing 10 but with barrel heating up it skews the data and what I'm looking for is only up to 5 shots at a time. I guess I should have multiplies my SD times 4, then averaged those numbers instead though?
Don't want to further hijack the thread so I will pm you a question I'd ya don't mind. Chasing my tale a bit with accurate powder I think
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So, take the velocity of each of the 15 shots and plug them into excel or something.
Use *sample* sd formula (not population) and you’ll get an sd for those 15.
Then you can either multiply that sd by 4 (that’s your ES 95% *if* that SD is the actual SD).
Or the best way would to be to google an “sd confidence interval calculator” and plug that sd and sample size of 15 in.
That will give you a range like posted above. Then you know what’s possible.
For example, you have a 15 shot sample sd of 5.
So, that’s a 4fps - 8fps range.
So, you could see an ES of up to 32fps 95% of the time. And up to 48fps for the other 5%.
Not understanding confidence intervals is one of the biggest, if not the biggest reason people lose their minds with ES.
They don’t realize that the “high” ES they observed is just normal for the data they have.
People people people!
A couple of things:
1. Waaaay back in post #11 I said I ordered the RCBS Competition. I got it Thursday. The decision was made and the item arrived. I no longer need assistance with the decision. Thank you all for responding.
B. I’m not that good of a shot so plus/minus a tenth is just fine by me. I just don’t want it to leak.
3. I don’t shoot F class. I don’t know what F class is. I don’t shoot any lettered or numbered class. In fact, many say I have no class at all.
5. If you want to keep arguing about SD, ES, beta, rho, or rho v Wade have at it, it’s kind of entertaining.
P
A couple of things:
1. Waaaay back in post #11 I said I ordered the RCBS Competition. I got it Thursday. The decision was made and the item arrived. I no longer need assistance with the decision. Thank you all for responding.
B. I’m not that good of a shot so plus/minus a tenth is just fine by me. I just don’t want it to leak.
3. I don’t shoot F class. I don’t know what F class is. I don’t shoot any lettered or numbered class. In fact, many say I have no class at all.
5. If you want to keep arguing about SD, ES, beta, rho, or rho v Wade have at it, it’s kind of entertaining.
P
Yup, you'll be perfectly happy. As I tried to present, a thrown load error maybe added 1 moa at 1,000 yards.....At 500yards you won't even notice.
For fine ball powders, it’s hard to beat Harrell’s. Repeatable precision. They don’t work so great on stick powders so I just set it a little below my target and trickle up.
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Didn't mean to hijack you're thread.
@Feniks Technologies is a fantastic resource for real load precision ammo, so I just couldn't resist that one.
This wouldn't be The Hide if threads always stayed on topic.
Lots of useful information is passed on by the diversions.
As far as the other "things" going on, that's how threads make legendary status...
No worries. I get a kick out of it.
Truth be told (only because I’m on my fourth Truly hard seltzer) I really enjoy the technical discussions. I have almost no clue what they’re saying but I get about every 5th word. I really dig the knowledge and experience on this board. So keep it up.
P
Dude, seriously. Two posts above yours I stated that I already bought one and no further advice was required.
P
No we don't, many of us dropped things that we figured we couldn't shoot the difference with in trade for a faster process and less time at the bench.
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Because a V3 cost a shit tonne of money that could potentially be used for more important things.
Following the train of thought of buy the best of the best to reduce groups groups by 1%, you need to buy the following:
$1000 auto trickler
$600 primer seater
$1300 press
$1000 annealer,$400 arbor press seater and goodness knows what else.
Of course you can always say it's an expensive hobby, and/or go be poor somewhere else but you have to draw the line somewhere.
I've moved to make reloading as simple as possible and cut out all the BS.
I have no idea what my brass weighs, what my run out is, how many PSI it takes to seat a projectile.
I have 2 types of powder I reload in everything and make sure I have a decent stock of all the components I have, not interested in anymore than that.
The day I start loosing PRS matches due to being certain I don't have faith in my ammo I'll change something, until then I have more important things to spend my time and money on.
I'm willing to live with the shame of not being a legit operator or whatever this makes me.
I get that, everything in reloading is a choice of "how far is far enough " and that's a little different for everyone I suppose.
So I like my charge master lite for load development, makes it easygoing.
The powder dropper on my dillon stays on point as long as it is operated smoothly and consistant strokes.
I have a sub moa load on it.
I have started a low carb thing and these two seltzers are the best I have found.
Give us an update on how you like the new thrower.
I have a lee and it was +/- 0.1g and I then trickled up. (Slow) especially for development.
..... Regarding the Auto Trickler and A&D FX120i setup. Has anyone repacked this equipment and moved it across country, and set it back up for use? What I am asking is, how sensitive on stable, is the equipment itself? I get that it is fantastically consistent, but is it like a first generation plasma TV and I better not fart on it or it will never be right again. Many thanks!
Dude, we're on to hard seltzer now.....buy a ticket and start watching the game!
I'm just gonna throw this out there.
The manufacturer ships it from China or wherever it's actually made.
It arrives at a distributor and is resold to a store.
The distributor then ships it to the store that sells it.
The store that sold it to you, ships it to you.
It arrives in working order.
You use it for a while and decide to move.
Nope, it's not gonna survive the trip. 3 strikes, that's it!
The best thing you can do is to sell it and ship it to someone else...
Seriously, if it doesn't survive you moving it across country, it's because you didn't pack it carefully or you just decided to beat it up.
Excellent. This is what I was hoping to hear. Many Thanks!I'm just gonna throw this out there.
The manufacturer ships it from China or wherever it's actually made.
It arrives at a distributor and is resold to a store.
The distributor then ships it to the store that sells it.
The store that sold it to you, ships it to you.
It arrives in working order.
You use it for a while and decide to move.
Nope, it's not gonna survive the trip. 3 strikes, that's it!
The best thing you can do is to sell it and ship it to someone else...
Seriously, if it doesn't survive you moving it across country, it's because you didn't pack it carefully or you just decided to beat it up.
Let us know how this works out, staball is about the only powder I can find regularly for my 6.5. Thrower seems the way to go
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