Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

[ChazHollywood]

New guy here

, if you'd like you can read my introduction and get more details about the rifle here

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here's a photo of the rifle, a Remington 700 5R:</span>

I got into reloading about six months ago and have been working on a load for this rifle off-and-on when time permits. Just last weekend I did a fairly detailed (for me) ladder test and I'd like to share the results with you all.

I have analyzed the data from this range trip and determined my favorite load. But I would also like to get your thoughts and interpretations of the results to hear any suggestions you may have.

I realize that this is an insanely long and detailed post and that most won't look at it very closely, but I still needed to post it for myself, and for others that may be interested.

Prior to this ladder test I had done some fairly coarse load workups for this rifle to see if I could find a sweet spot. Unfortunately, I didn't have a chronograph at the time. I did find a powder range that it seemed to prefer so I used that range as a starting point for this ladder test.

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Disclaimer: This post contains hand loading information that I used in MY rifle. Please don't assume this load data is correct or safe for use in YOUR rifle.</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Load info:</span>
Case: New Winchester 308 brass
Bullet: 175gr SMK HPBT
Powder: Varget (charge varies from 43.3 to 43.7 grains)
Primer: CCI No 200 large rifle
Case trim: New brass OAL varied from 2.050" to 2.100"
COAL: 2.810"
Qty: 50

Looking at my previous load testing I decided that I wanted to try very fine 1/10th grain increments around 43.5gr of Varget to see if I could find an ideal charge. I made 50 rounds total for this test, 10 each of: 43.3gr, 43.4gr, 43.5gr, 43.6gr, and 43.7gr.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Testing procedure:</span>
On a paper target with 5 zones, shoot a 5 round group at each zone, one group for each powder charge. Then, for verification and additional data, do the whole thing over again on a fresh target.

Each shot was measured with a chronograph and the data recorded. I photographed the targets and imported the images into On Target software for detailed measurements.

All shots were taken at 100 yards from a benchrest, wind was 0-2 for the first round of shots, and 5-10 for the second round.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here is a photo of the whole first target, 1" grids:</span>
(Group 1 in upper left, 2 in upper-right, 3 in center, 4 and 5 lower left and right respectively.)

Target 1, group 1:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 1, group 2:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 1, group 3:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 1, group 4:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 1, group 5:
Closeup with measurements.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here is a photo of the whole second target, 1" grids:</span>
(Group 1 in upper left, 2 in upper-right, 3 in center, 4 and 5 lower left and right respectively.)

Target 2, group 1:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 2, group 2:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 2, group 3:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 2, group 4:
Closeup with measurements.

Target 2, group 5:
Closeup with measurements.

<span style="font-weight: bold">In Photoshop, I overlaid the targets from Round 1 and Round 2 together so we can see what the ten shot groups would look like. Sorry for the garbled handwriting, those got combined too!

</span>

Combined targets, group 1
Closeup.

Combined targets, group 2
Closeup.

Combined targets, group 3
Closeup.

Combined targets, group 4
Closeup.

Combined targets, group 5
Closeup.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here is a table I made in Excel showing the data from the On Target software and the chronograph.</span>
Note: The combined MOA numbers are calculated as an average of the two separate 5 shot groups. I do realize that this number would be higher if I calculated based on a single group of 10 shots.

<span style="font-weight: bold">My conclusion:</span>
A charge of 43.4 grains yielded the smallest groups based on an overall average, but it also produced less consistent velocities, same goes for a charge of 43.7gr. In addition to that, I don't like the vertical spread of the charge when viewed as a combined 10 shot group.

I prefer a charge of 43.6 grains of Varget based on this test. While it didn't yield the smallest group, it had very stable velocities and the 10 shot group image shows very little vertical spread.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Your thoughts?</span>
Thanks for bearing with me through this very long and detailed post. Now that you've made it to the end, care to share any of your thoughts with me? I'll try and answer any questions as quickly as possible.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

Nice analysis. Have you actually shot a ladder test though ?

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

Have you considered pushing it up to the next accuracy node? Or are you seeing pressure signs at 43.7gr? I don't remember exactly what my varget load is, but I thought I was above 44gr.

Better to have a more consistent velocity with decent groups, than super tight groups and velocity all over the place.

You could play with bullet seating depth... Maybe. My 5R has such an enormous lead on it that I never could get close to kissing the lands without the bullet being just barely held by the neck. COAL was pretty funny(extreme) and I don't think it would have been accurate or safe. Maybe play with seating depth in .010" increments from your longest seated bullet. (Mag length.)

Someone with more experience in seating depth probably could give some better info. (I normally just jam them and then back off .005" and call it good.)

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice analysis. Have you actually shot a ladder test though ? </div></div>

I may have made a bit of a newbie error with terminology on that one. This method may not be what most define to be a true "ladder test", though it is exactly the kind of test I wanted to run so it works for me.

Sorry if I got the terms wrong guys, thanks for going easy on me

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChazHollywood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice analysis. Have you actually shot a ladder test though ? </div></div>

I may have made a bit of a newbie error with terminology on that one. This method may not be what most define to be a true "ladder test", though it is exactly the kind of test I wanted to run so it works for me.

Sorry if I got the terms wrong guys, thanks for going easy on me

</div></div>

I hear you. Just don't rule it out because when you try it at 300-400 yrds with your level of attention to detail I think you'll find some interesting & possibly more revealing results. Don't tell me you are going to shoot that rifle/scope package to only 100-yrds

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you considered pushing it up to the next accuracy node? Or are you seeing pressure signs at 43.7gr? I don't remember exactly what my varget load is, but I thought I was above 44gr.

Better to have a more consistent velocity with decent groups, than super tight groups and velocity all over the place.

You could play with bullet seating depth... Maybe. My 5R has such an enormous lead on it that I never could get close to kissing the lands without the bullet being just barely held by the neck. COAL was pretty funny(extreme) and I don't think it would have been accurate or safe. Maybe play with seating depth in .010" increments from your longest seated bullet. (Mag length.)

Someone with more experience in seating depth probably could give some better info. (I normally just jam them and then back off .005" and call it good.) </div></div>

I had done some hand loads prior to this that topped off at 44.0 grains of Varget. I did start to get some pressure signs at that charge and the accuracy wasn't as good as it was in the mid 43's.

My throat also seems very long. I measured mine to require an OAL of over 3" before it would touch the lands. At that point the 175 SMK was only barely held in place by the case neck and would not fit in the magazine.

I may experiment with longer OAL's in the future to see if I get better results. But I am pretty pleased with what I have so far.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChazHollywood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Your thoughts?</span> </div></div>

What I do not like about the "look" of the window is: a) that the double-group with the lowest SD b) the lowest ES c) the "perceived" optimal MV (2650) has d) the worst group size.

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I hear you. Just don't rule it out because when you try it at 300-400 yrds with your level of attention to detail I think you'll find some interesting & possibly more revealing results. Don't tell me you are going to shoot that rifle/scope package to only 100-yrds

</div></div>

You got it, it's not a 100 yard gun. I have done some 1000 yard shooting with it and also a precision tactical match (which I plan to do more of) which goes out to 500M here in Las Vegas.

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChazHollywood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Your thoughts?</span> </div></div>

What I do not like about the "look" of the window is: a) that the double-group with the lowest SD b) the lowest ES c) the "perceived" optimal MV (2650) has d) the worst group size. </div></div>

Yep, I was a bit disappointed about that as well. Unfortunately, that charge had undeniably worse groups than the others. It's a shame too because the velocity was so consistent.

 

[IndySSD]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

Nice work Chaz!

I'm going to hopefully be doing something similar (with factory ammo for now, plan on getting reloading gear sometime later this year, early next year) and I plan on running similar tests to yours laid out here.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a "true ladder test" as referenced here? I'm curious about what that means if it's similar to this.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IndySSD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Can anyone point me in the direction of a "true ladder test" as referenced here? I'm curious about what that means if it's similar to this. </div></div>

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

 

[IndySSD]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IndySSD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Can anyone point me in the direction of a "true ladder test" as referenced here? I'm curious about what that means if it's similar to this. </div></div>

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html </div></div>

Wow... that's an awesome article.... thanks!!

This'll keep me busy for a WHILE...

 

[Neo]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

First off welcome to the Hide.

As to your test.
1) Was case trimming your only brass prep IE did you resize, uniform and deburr the primer pockets, weight sort, ect?

2) what are you measuring powder with? Was it a quality scale or a POS lee or cheap digital.

3) Same with the chronograph and was it setup properly.

The reason I ask is there are several things that don't look right.
If you look at your first load (43.3 gr) You pick up an average of 28 FPS from your first group to the second which would put your ES @ 45 for the ten shots. Same with the second ten then everything stay pretty close from there till your last group which you lose 38 FPS and the ES jumps to 62.

I would also be looking for the next accuracy node. What exactly are you considering pressure signs? I know every rifle is different but I don't start to see pressure signs till over 45 gr. and that's just light ejector swipes.

Hope this helps.

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Neoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off welcome to the Hide.

As to your test.
1) Was case trimming your only brass prep IE did you resize, uniform and deburr the primer pockets, weight sort, ect?

2) what are you measuring powder with? Was it a quality scale or a POS lee or cheap digital.

3) Same with the chronograph and was it setup properly.

The reason I ask is there are several things that don't look right.
If you look at your first load (43.3 gr) You pick up an average of 28 FPS from your first group to the second which would put your ES @ 45 for the ten shots. Same with the second ten then everything stay pretty close from there till your last group which you lose 38 FPS and the ES jumps to 62.

I would also be looking for the next accuracy node. What exactly are you considering pressure signs? I know every rifle is different but I don't start to see pressure signs till over 45 gr. and that's just light ejector swipes.

Hope this helps. </div></div>

Neo, thanks for having a look at things, I'll be happy to give you those details.

1) The brass was new and the OAL after a FL re-size varied from 2.050" to 2.100". I personally trim my brass to 2.100" but since none were over that length, I didn't do any trimming this time around.

I also didn't deburr primer pockets or weight sort the brass or bullets. I know that having all these things uniform would yield better results, but I wanted to put together a load that would perform well even if some of these steps are omitted.

2) Now I am a bit picky about powder charge and I have a lot of redundancy in this area. My main scale is a Hornady M beam scale. I use this because it's easier to trickle on a beam than on a digital. I also have a cheap Hornady Digital scale that I use to confirm my charges. Even though it's cheap (came as part of a kit) it's dead-on in terms of accuracy.

I check both of my scales for accuracy using a Lyman check weight set - which by the way I feel is an invaluable tool. Another note I wanted to make: The Redding powder trickler is a very well made tool. It got a very heavy base, and dials powder very smoothly.

3) It's a Shooting Chrony, the basic model. I've actually never had any trouble with it. I bring my .22 along to make sure it's working before I shoot the high power stuff. I've heard they can be finicky, but as long as you shoot straight-through the sweet spot it works every time (for me). I put it 30 feet from the muzzle to reduce the chance of blast being a factor.

Regarding the things that don't look right. Yes, I know what you mean. The last five shot velocity don't jive with the rest of the test. I don't know what to make of it really, the powder charges are correct. I have heard that on a macro scale, a little more powder doesn't always yield more velocity, that sometimes it will go down slightly before climbing again. Whether or not that happened here I'm not sure. The best thing to do would be to run that charge again and see if I have the same results. Maybe it was just a weird fluke, kinda hard to tell with just 10 rounds.

About the pressure signs. I have loaded up to 44 grains before and got the beginnings of flattened primers and cases that were starting to get sticky-to-eject. However, those cases were not new and were FL re-sized. Typically I neck size only, so the sticky cases would be even more noticeable.

I think since I have found good accuracy here without pressure signs why push it? Is a marked improvement typically found above 44 grains? I'd have to weigh the benefits of better accuracy against the pressure signs.

Let me know if you have any follow-up's. Thanks!

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

I had a Remy 5R that shot solid .4's at 100 yards using 43.0 grs. of RL15/Lapua Brass/Fed 210M/SMK 175's. At 600 yards, the rifle sucked, a 2 minute gun at best. I was using a NF NXS 5.5-22 so I had very good optics with Badger mount and rings. I gave it a chance. I sold it and went custom. Problem solved.

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a Remy 5R that shot solid .4's at 100 yards using 43.0 grs. of RL15/Lapua Brass/Fed 210M/SMK 175's. At 600 yards, the rifle sucked, a 2 minute gun at best. I was using a NF NXS 5.5-22 so I had very good optics with Badger mount and rings. I gave it a chance. I sold it and went custom. Problem solved. </div></div>

Bummer, sorry to hear that one didn't work out, were your velocity numbers consistent?

It's usually fairly windy when I go shoot so it's hard for me to tell what is environmental vs rifle accuracy at longer ranges. That's why I shot this test at 100 yards, I wanted to eliminate wind as much as possible. I guess I could just ignore the horizontal spread, but I also wanted to see some 1 hole groups this time

I have done groups at our 500M range. It's always just a little under 1 MOA, so it does open up a bit, but it's never shot more than an MOA out to 500M for me.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

SD of my loads are always in single digits. The load is good. I tried several loads with the rifle. 43.0 of RL15 shot the best. I'm happy to hear that you have a good one.

 

[bricktop]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

Have you tried different primers at all? I used to run CCI #34 and Fed. 210M, but when I switched to Wolf LR, my velocities became much more consistent for most all loads (SD < 10 fps). The fact that I could run a bit more powder and have 95-100% case fill with safe pressures may have made a difference since they are a bit lower power. FWIW, I run Viht N150 and H4895.

 

[ChazHollywood]

Re: Here's a 50-shot ladder test for my 700 5R (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you tried different primers at all? I used to run CCI #34 and Fed. 210M, but when I switched to Wolf LR, my velocities became much more consistent for most all loads (SD < 10 fps). The fact that I could run a bit more powder and have 95-100% case fill with safe pressures may have made a difference since they are a bit lower power. FWIW, I run Viht N150 and H4895. </div></div>

I have tried the Remington primers, but I didn't have a chronograph at the time. Other than that I haven't tried any of the others. I'd like to get some of the CCI benchrest primers, but I haven't found them locally and I don't really want to pay the extra hazmat shipping