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I used to flame anneal and it can be done consistently. I found the trick to be moving the case farther away from the flame so you don't have to be as quick or precise to get the case out at the appropriate time. I also used a homemade holder/motor contraption to turn and "eject" the case when done. I set the flames so it took about 12 seconds. I say "about" because at that timing, you can see the brass change color as it anneals. I would set up so the flame hit just above the shoulder, and I'd watch until the annealing color change went just below the shoulder, using a metronome to time so I knew when it was getting close. I know people will scoff at this method, and give all sorts of reasons why it doesn't work, but when done carefully, it can be just as consistent as other methods. I moved to induction annealing because it's far less time consuming and there are no open flames.
I see no difference in results between the two methods - they both were part of a process that consistently delivers low SDs.
Agree with Rocketmandb. I use a similar method for .308 cases. You can see the color change at the approx time interval.
that looks to high tech to be a redneck invention also its missing about 4 lbs of duct tape and a relative on fire we loved cousin Elmer but it was his turn to hold the brass duct taped to the stool while we spun him but he burst into flames 1/2 way in and there was nothing we could do .
minus the relative and duct tape
minus the relative and duct tape
I have been using a torch, drill and socket for years.
It absolutely has worked well for me once I watched the video Orkan did on annealing years ago.
It absolutely has worked well for me once I watched the video Orkan did on annealing years ago.
One word ... "AMP". Wait ... I guess that's actually three words.
I have also been considering this unit
Yes. Very good especially for the investment.
I was making a list of stuff to make one, I like to make my own stuff. Had my brother-in-law (EE) on board to assist with the electronics. Or so I thought. He kept holding off.
Christmas 2019 rolls around and the whole family had conspired against me and purchased the Annealeez with all sizes of wheels. They were sure proud of themselves for keeping me in the dark and surprising me. Brother had watched videos and forums and had parts to upgrade the torch holder and a hose to connect to a large propane bottle.
Maybe the best Christmas I ever had!!!
Now if the primer shortage would end, I'd shoot more.
Been doing it this way for some time. Seems to work fine. Still curious if doing them on an AMP would have any effect down range.
+1
This setup is easier and faster than what the OP shows too. No need to lock each case into that Lee holder, just drop it in the socket, heat, and tilt to drop it out again.
in australia we have 2 options that i know of, this is 1/4 of the price of the amp machine
takes about 16 minutes to go through 200 cases of 223
takes about 16 minutes to go through 200 cases of 223
Move the torch closer and you can get down below 3 seconds per case for 223.
- Nov 3, 2010
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I feel a project in my future
Totally doable but just my opinion... if you want a very consistent anneal as a split second can make a difference.... using a machine to get the brass in and out of the heat matters. I use the EP 2.0 brass annealer to anneal my brass.
http://www.epintegrations.com
http://www.epintegrations.com
I use the drill/socket/torch method too, and for 100 cases at a time it's not too terrible. I use a timer set to 10-12 seconds and stop/start the timer with every case so they all have relatively the same amount of exposure to the flame.
Seems there's soooo much BS put forth out there about annealing by people who don't understand what is actually happening in the process and what they're talking about... There's virtually no difference downrange between a "perfectly" annealed case and one that's done "ok", as long as the brass gets stress-relieved and most of the work-hardening is reversed, then consistent neck tension and long lasting cases are achievable every time.
It's always made out to be such a scary process, like the difference between "good" and "ruined" brass is only a second when it's not. IRL one has to almost be a complete idiot in order to overdue it and ruin their brass.
I'll probably end up with an Annealeez or AMP sooner or later, but only for convenience, not because they're must haves.
It's true that a 100% perfectly annealed case walks right up to the edge of being ruined, and is basically "new again" after the process (IMO the AMP is the only way to achieve this consistently). But, it doesn't matter as much as some think it matters, and getting as close to "perfectly annealed" as one can is usually good enough.
Besides, there are a bunch of guys who own an AMP, but still don't anneal every firing... to me that's probably more inconsistent and more random (not to mention dumber) than guys in their garage with torches/drills who do it religiously after every single firing.
Seems there's soooo much BS put forth out there about annealing by people who don't understand what is actually happening in the process and what they're talking about... There's virtually no difference downrange between a "perfectly" annealed case and one that's done "ok", as long as the brass gets stress-relieved and most of the work-hardening is reversed, then consistent neck tension and long lasting cases are achievable every time.
It's always made out to be such a scary process, like the difference between "good" and "ruined" brass is only a second when it's not. IRL one has to almost be a complete idiot in order to overdue it and ruin their brass.
I'll probably end up with an Annealeez or AMP sooner or later, but only for convenience, not because they're must haves.
It's true that a 100% perfectly annealed case walks right up to the edge of being ruined, and is basically "new again" after the process (IMO the AMP is the only way to achieve this consistently). But, it doesn't matter as much as some think it matters, and getting as close to "perfectly annealed" as one can is usually good enough.
Besides, there are a bunch of guys who own an AMP, but still don't anneal every firing... to me that's probably more inconsistent and more random (not to mention dumber) than guys in their garage with torches/drills who do it religiously after every single firing.
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If you don't have Tempilaq, you can go into a closet/dark room and see how long it takes to get a very dull red on the neck.
Good question.
I try to aim for (or hope for) ~90%, which I think is achievable using my caveman setup lol. Works well enough for me to keep my SD's in single digits, and my brass lasts as long as the primer pockets will hold on.
I dim the lights and stop as soon as I begin to see orange regardless of time. I'm getting single digit sd's with all of my hand loaded cartriges and multiple reloads with all my brass. And that's the whole point. If I ever find myself needing to do more I'll certainly consider a machine. Guess I just dont shoot enough.
I think the main thing is to turn the corner and realize that annealing is important enough to go through every time, no matter how much it can be a chore.
Nicer/better tools make it easier (and allows one to get more closely to a 100% perfectly annealed case using an AMP), but if one is willing to suffer a little, the "Hillbilly way" can work too.
As mentioned, consistency can be hard to get using the drill/torch method due to how caveman it is... but, like everything else, practice helps, and with the aid of a timer and one deliberately trying to be as robotic as possible, the results aren't bad.
Reloading sucks, no one wants an extra step added to an already shitty process, but it's worth it if one's chasing better consistency in their ammo.
Nicer/better tools make it easier (and allows one to get more closely to a 100% perfectly annealed case using an AMP), but if one is willing to suffer a little, the "Hillbilly way" can work too.
As mentioned, consistency can be hard to get using the drill/torch method due to how caveman it is... but, like everything else, practice helps, and with the aid of a timer and one deliberately trying to be as robotic as possible, the results aren't bad.
Reloading sucks, no one wants an extra step added to an already shitty process, but it's worth it if one's chasing better consistency in their ammo.
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I think that’s well written. And it begs the question that many have:
If we are, for discussion sake, to consider brass annealing on a scale of 0-100%, zero being no anneal and one hundred being AMP (for discussion)...where do other methods fall?
And where is the break point between return on time/money/effort?
I’d like to think that I can spend $250
and have a case that’s 95% of the annealing that’s done by the AMP. And like many things in life - reloading, performance cars, etc - chasing the last 5% is always, always expensive.
I agree.
There's definitely a point of diminishing returns with a lot of this shit lol.
If one hasn't seen this, check it out: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/
SD's is a great example... guys spend thousands on gadgets to lower their SD from like a 7 to a 3, when that money spent on ammo/practice would've helped a bunch more...
I think he means time & effort...
IMHO, I'd consider "no anneal" a "0" and an AMP w/ Aztec mode "100"... I'd guess both an Annealeez and the drill/torch method (done well) land somewhere in the 80-90% range, with obviously the Annealeez being much easier to deal with.
I don't know if an $1600+ AMP is worth it for me as I'm already consistently sub-MOA at 1000 yards with the drill/torch... But, in a sport where bags of sand are ~$100, I can't say I won't end up getting one eventually...
I think if I upgrade from the drill/torch, it'll be to an Annealeez, and mostly so it becomes a much less annoying step in the process, no so much because I think it'll be any better.
I think there are a lot of reasons why one might go straight to an AMP: if one is shooting a semi-exotic cartridge where brass isn't cheap and that can be a pain to get a hold of easily, an open flame is a problem, they're ballin' so $1600 is nothing lol...
But is an amp annealing the brass to 100% on the softness scale (dead soft, as annealed as brass case can get)?? or does it also have varying levels?
So brass is proprietary. Metalurgically each manufacturer mixes their brass with copper or other metals to get the hardness they want. Some cases have so much copper they have a rosegold look to them. So you can never really get to solid brass softness because of the other add ins as i understand it.... which may be totally wrong.
This seems to be the common trend. Nobody really knows what exactly they are doing to the brass.
I know exactly what is happening.
I’m eliminating split necks, promoting consistent sizing and maintaining an acceptable ES.
Results are what I want.
As long as the process is working I could care less about the scientific/metallurgical tidbits.
But it could work mo betta if you only knew what a perfect anneal was and what your process is giving you.
True, and I hope the guys at AMP have worked it out... thus justifying its price tag lol!
I see what you mean though, and think there is an aspect to this where things do wind up in a "grey area" as far as what quantifies an actual hypothetic "optimum anneal".
In my mind single digit SD's represents optimal. I can't shoot well enough to appreciate any improvement under that
...and I don't want to have to put in any more work or buy any more shit than I already do and/or have to.
In my mind single digit SD's represents optimal. I can't shoot well enough to appreciate any improvement under that
Do you need to anneal brass in order to achieve that?
I can tell you the answer to my question above is no.
I have no problems getting single digit SD's (5-6) with my 6BRA and no annealing.
But there is a lot of myth and lore in reloading.
I think you do if you value the repeatability of being able to do it over and over again.
IMO bullet seating force tells me most of everything I need to know about whether my rounds will be consistent downrange (and I don't mean using an arbor press with a force pack; though, that works for some). Annealing every time makes the bullet seating process beautifully smooth and consistent, round to round, round after round, every time.
With cases that have been fired and resized over and over again without being annealed, after a few cycles you can feel it through the handle on the press that the tension gets more and more wonky and all over the place as time and firings add up. If a guy's process is really dialed, they might get some good numbers here and there, but not though hundreds of rounds, the brass is changing so the goal post is moving, and it has to be annealed now and then anyway or it won't last.
Then, if you annealed every time your SD's would be more like 3, that's why guys shoot BR cartridges, an SD of 5-6 in a BR is nothing to brag on really.
You can literally feel it at the handle. Use the force Luke! Annealing isn't myth and lore, it's f'ing science.
Im up to 12 reloads on some of my 338 lm brass. No adverse signs of wear. I think its gunblue490 on youtube that gave the best answer on annealing. He said that the case is comprised of 3 different hardnesses of brass, the base is hardest, then the lower case is slightly softer and then the neck is softest. I pretty new to the whole process but i find if i do each step as anal as possible i get good repeatable results.
I do anneal.
