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Horizontal Stringing

R

RFtinkerer

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 3, 2010
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So I've been shooting my .22 in my back yard for more than a year now, which I've gotten okay at in multiple positions, so I decided it was time to graduate to a bigger rifle. I recently got a Savage Bear Hunter in 300 WM, and took it out to the range (I won't shoot the 300 in my back yard, the neighbors would fuss, even though it's legal for me...) At the range, there are benches set up so I cannot shoot prone, which is my favorite and most stable position. I'm shooting off a bipod and rear bag, but when I fire I don't have much weight behind the rifle, so it violently swings to the right as I fire. Guess what, the shots string off to the right in a 2" spread. I've tried pushing more weight into the bipod, but it doesn't seem to work.

Any advice for a 300 WM newb? I don't really want to get a lead sled, but I'm tempted just to zero the scope better. I feel sure if I shoot prone the stringing will go away, but I don't know where I can do that.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Follow through? Bipod loading is probably not correct either. I had that similar situation and practice loading the bipod helped.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Agree with bipod. Also check the contact between your trigger and trigger finger for consistent placement and direction of pull.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

wow.......300wm,,,,,ok......so

one thing i noticed in say a sendero profile barrel is....they heat up in an inconsistent manner and thusly ...they tend to string the holes, but maybe in your case, you just are not properly driving the rifle in a correct manner.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Get away from the Bi pod. Get some good bags for the front. Mold the weapon to the bag and do not push on the weapon-no need to. Get a smaller bag for the back, practice trigger control, breathing and follow through. Wait 2/3 minutes between shots and make sure you get the same position and sight picture every time. DO NOT compensate. Shoot groups and then make any necessary adjustments.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Good advice--not so sure I can wait the 2-3 minutes between shots, I'm used to popping rounds off every 2-3 seconds with the .22! LOL, patience Grasshopper.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Next time bags and less sucking so much...
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

My first advice would be to put the 300wm back in the safe & get something in a 308 or 243 and use that.

The problem I see for you is that even though you have trained a lot with your .22 a 300wm (even with a big brake) is just too much recoil energy to get in all the practice you want and you'll probably pickup some bad habits from it.

I have most of the big boys but when I go to the range, it's the 308 that gets the most use for practice.

A hunting weight 300wm is not well suited to target practice, especially from a bench, it is made for carrying around hunting and taking a couple shots over the course of a hunt
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Gentlemen, I just got through fighting with a Rem 700 whose accuracy left something to be desired. The action has been trued and is wearing a custom barrel. The stock is a Mcmillian A3-5 and a the trigger is a Jewell set at 1.5 lbs. The chambering is 338 Edge.

To make a long story short, I couldnt get it to group under 1 1/4 min at any range. Out of frustration I started dry firing, to my amazement I discovered there was no way this rifle would sit still on the bags during dry fire. The movement was about 1 moa and in no particular direction, generally it was upward and to the right but once in a while it would go left.

I then became curious and tried several different bolt guns, sure enough, they also had a case of the wiggles during dry fire. Some of the rifles would only move 1/4 min and others up to 3/4 min. I then began to talk with some very knowledgeable folks and got varying responses. Almost all admitted seeing this occur however there was vast differences in their opinion concerning the effects of the movement on accuracy.

Some thought the bullet would be long gone before the movement occurred, others thought the movement would occur while the bullet was still in the barrel but the movement would be consistant enough that accuracy would not be affected.

I really dont know what the answer is but I can tell you I fixed the dry firing movement and the accuracy problem on the Rem 700 I was fighting with by installing a new firing pin assembly. After installing this firing pin assembly, the rifle lays quietly in the bags during dry fire and the accuracy went from 1 1/4 min to sub-half. The assembly features a lighter pin.

I was toatlly impressed with the change so I ordered another assembly to replace the one that was currently on a 308 of mine. This 308 is consistantly around 1/2 min but would have an unexplaind flier once in a while opening the group to 3/4 or so. I put it on the bags and it would move 1/2 to 3/4 min during dry fire. Its movement was fairly consistant and would jump vertically each time. Once in a while it would jump vertically and slightly off to the left or right.

The new firing pin was installed in this rifle and it also lays quietly in the bags during dry fire. I have fired five five shot groups since the replacement and the largest group was .350.

I am convinced much of the accuracy problems folks are dealing with has its roots in firing pin induced movement.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

horizontal stringing is usually the result of trigger pull.

you're shooting in a new position and you need to adjust your technique.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

You need to control the rifle consistently from trigger pull until recoil subsides. I would suggest a sandbag support as well as the non-firing hand placed between stock fore-end and sandbag. As you shoulder the rifle bring the comb to your head rather than the head to the comb; and, establish a relationship between the eyepiece and your eyeball, before consideration of the reticle/target relationship. Then, adjust NPA for the hold you are seeking. Focus on the reticle; and, pull the trigger without disturbing aim utilizing smooth trigger control. Follow-through; and, call the shot, to properly troubleshoot the source of any errors.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

I dont mean to hi-jack this thread and we can move it if necessary. I am now very curious as to why there is not more discussion about firing pin induced movement and its effect on accuracy. Maybe there has been a lot of discussion and I have just missed it.

I have now looked at around twenty different bolt guns and have observed the described movement on all of them. As stated before some move more than others and some move more consistantly than others but all of the ones I have looked at had movement during dry fire. I also had a couple of experienced shooters verify what I was seeing. Bolt guns with factory pins in them move during dry fire folks, the only question is how is that movement affecting accuracy.

Another curiosity is that I also dry fired 3 AR type rifles and there was no perceptible movement during dry fire.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Movement during Dry Fire is generally considered a function of NPA... in fact Dry Fire is the fine tune adjustment for NPA after the Gross Adjustment.

Now, you may see this movement but, and it is possible it is related somewhat to the movement of the pin, but I am betting your NPA is just as much of the issue. If you have never used this movement to diagnose issues in NPA, or even Trigger Control, then you may feel it is from something else. But that movement seen in Dry Fire can usually be removed by a slight adjustment in your position. That is something we have seen.

The Human body has a pre-Flinch reaction to recoil, the act of Dry Firing is enough to induce the reaction. (Especially with guys shooting magnum calibers who flinch more than others) The body relaxes for a micro second during recoil as a safety mechanism to protect itself. By changing the firing pin to a lighter one you maybe changing the characteristic enough to stop the body from this pre-flinch reaction, the strike is no longer heavy enough is my guess.

But I have seen movement, but I have also seen a way to fix it, it's by adjusting your NPA to a better position, as Dry Fire is a test of NPA
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

All I know is that when I replaced the firing pins in two different rifles the movement went away. I seriously doubt the NPA was changed for three different shooters by a different firing pin. Both of these rifles are rock steady now from bags or bipods. There is zero movement during dry fire from either of these rifles verified by multiple shooters.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

All I know is that when I replaced the firing pins in two different rifles the movement went away. I seriously doubt the NPA was changed for three different shooters by a different firing pin. Both of these rifles are rock steady now from bags or bipods. There is zero movement during dry fire from either of these rifles verified by multiple shooters.

Personally I believe it is a matter of physics, the energy stored in the spring and the foward movement of the pin causes the movement. The heavier the pin, the stronger spring, the lighter the rifle, the more the movement.

I dont see the point worrying about it anymore, change the pin, end of story.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

There is more mass moving with an AR Type rifle, the movement of the hammer, the impact on the pin, so really what you are saying makes less sense, that the movement in a bolt gun is more noticeable than a gasser, the hammer moves much more and strikes the pin as opposed to releasing the tension on the spring. So it seem a bit strange the way you are describing it.

Sure spring tension from one to another should be more noticeable between one pin and the other, that is a function of weight but if you think about it from a movement standpoint, the system on an AR moves much more than a bolt gun.

No doubt changing something may help what you are seeing, but I bet it is not more than MOA like you described, that would make a majority of boltgun much less accurate. At least according to your description as written.

You brought it back up, I was only commenting on what we have seen... and that a simple Dry Fire is a fine tuning method of adjusting your NPA. The Gross is well known, closing your eyes, a couple of breathing cycles, open them to see where the reticle falls, then the fine tuning adjustment is the dry fire looking for that change in the reticle position. I get it, doesn't jive with your assessment but it can be adjusted out... NPA is not based on the rifle not moving but your muscle reaction to the recoil.

I am willing to bet not a one of you tested your NPA prior to your tests, so I think you can't rule it out.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont mean to hi-jack this thread and we can move it if necessary. I am now very curious as to why there is not more discussion about firing pin induced movement and its effect on accuracy. Maybe there has been a lot of discussion and I have just missed it.

I have now looked at around twenty different bolt guns and have observed the described movement on all of them. As stated before some move more than others and some move more consistantly than others but all of the ones I have looked at had movement during dry fire. I also had a couple of experienced shooters verify what I was seeing. Bolt guns with factory pins in them move during dry fire folks, the only question is how is that movement affecting accuracy.

Another curiosity is that I also dry fired 3 AR type rifles and there was no perceptible movement during dry fire.</div></div>

The big idea here is to control the rifle's movement consistently from shot to shot. This should be a no-brainer. From the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet clears the bore, the rifle's movement must be controlled in a manner which minimizes shot to shot angular divergence from the line of bore at rest to the line of bore at bullet exit.

Adjustment of NPA, and follow-through are important. Adherence to these fundamentals support execution of the two firing tasks: properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment, and pulling the trigger without disturbing aim, utilizing smooth trigger control.

Also, while embracing the principles of marksmanship, as well as the elements of a steady position: NPA, muscular relaxation, and bone/artificial support, remember, there are five factors to a steady position which must be monitored too. These factors describe the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground. They are: elbows, non-firing hand, grip, stock-weld, and butt-to-shoulder placement.

If these factors are not in exact relationships between each other, from shot to shot, less than the best results should be expected. It's simple, when shot to shot consistency is lost between shooter, gun, and ground, recoil is allowed to produce greater angular divergence between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit.

I'm certain most shooters, while they may appreciate the need for consistency, do not have the discipline to perfect it enough to realize what's possible from such effort. The sort of practice required to develop motor memory is both physically and mentally painful. And, if it were not for the rewards to be won by shooters pursuing such perfection through competitions, I think most shooters would simply abandon their pursuit of zero dispersion.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Bagging the rifle in and watching the trigger break in a sort of "free recoil" exercise is what it sounds like. Which is probably why the case of the bolt gun movement seems more prounced.

I bet it creates a local hero syndrome where the revelation of a simple firing pin change, increases the accuracy dramatically more with each recommendation and retelling over some beers. People will comment on what a great revelation it is, and how come no one ever thought of it before. Plus it is easy to demonstrate so it will reinforce the recommendation. It'll be all the rage for a while watch.

Accuracy bought for less than a case of premium beer, guaranteed. Turn your stock Remington into a .25 minute rifle with simple replacement of the firing pin and spring. People can start searching for the lowest amount of released energy that still engages the primer as a way to increase accuracy. Genius.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bagging the rifle in and watching the trigger break in a sort of "free recoil" exercise is what it sounds like. Which is probably why the case of the bolt gun movement seems more prounced.

I bet it creates a local hero syndrome where the revelation of a simple firing pin change, increases the accuracy dramatically more with each recommendation and retelling over some beers. People will comment on what a great revelation it is, and how come no one ever thought of it before. Plus it is easy to demonstrate so it will reinforce the recommendation. It'll be all the rage for a while watch.

Accuracy bought for less than a case of premium beer, guaranteed. Turn your stock Remington into a .25 minute rifle with simple replacement of the firing pin and spring. People can start searching for the lowest amount of released energy that still engages the primer as a way to increase accuracy. Genius. </div></div>

Gee, and I was thinkin' the Tubb Speed Lock was all I needed.
grin.gif
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Good call forgot about that,

Though that sort goes against the AR part of the story. They have a much longer lock time compared to the bolt gun. So I think my idea of recommending ARs to Benchrest Central might not work. Although I bet they have all kinds of spring tricks to gain that micron of accuracy over there.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Thanks for all the advice everyone, and the interesting discussion going on about the firing pin. I'm listening to everything--except for putting the rifle back into the safe, I'll learn to drive this thing if it kills me. Or my shoulder, at least.

So far, I have several things to adjust before next trip:

1) Practice dry firing in the bench position. I am not used to the position, and it grossly affected my comfort level. Adjust factors to get comfortable with it.
2) Rest off bags instead of a bipod.
3) Adjust shooting profile per Sterling Shooter's post--some good stuff here.
4) Practice establishing NPA, especially in bench position. I'm more used to it in prone.

At the range, I'll try for a more consistent approach to recoil management and follow-through.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Gentlemen, I learned about NPA the merits of good form etc around forty five yrs and thousands of rds ago. These concepts are important and the foundation of good marksmanship. No shooter becomes so experienced and proficient that he should forget about the basics.

With that being said there are a myriad of factors that affect accuracy that has absolutely nothing to do with the shooter. The firing pin is only one tiny piece of the puzzle and I am in no way suggesting changing your firing pin will solve all your problems.

All I am trying to share is that most bolts guns that I have looked at with standard pins have some movement during dry fire. If your rifle has excessive and erratic movement induced by the firing pin there are pins out there that will eliminate the movement.

Does eliminating the firing pin induced movement improve accuracy? I think it does. You may come to a different conclusion.

Be advised most of the rifles I looked at were fairly light hunting wt rifles; however, one of the rifles weighed 16 lbs and demostrated substantial movement even when sand bagged in and dry fired with no shooter contact except the force required to trip a 1 1/2 lb trigger with a finger tip. This rifle domostrated about 1/2 min of movement but was very consistant.

As a side note, most of the dry firing was done with a fired rd in the chamber or with a dummy rd containing a piece of pencil eraser in the primer pocket. Some of the firing was done on an empty chamber, this produced the most movement and the movement seemed to be more erratic.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does eliminating the firing pin induced movement improve accuracy? I think it does. You may come to a different conclusion. </div></div>

Sorry to say this but it doesn't pass the sniff test, and I will explain using your own words.

First, I will agree with this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The firing pin is only <span style="font-style: italic">one tiny piece</span> of the puzzle</div></div>

Tiny piece is absolutely right, probably so small most wouldn't notice it, but here in this very thread you posted an accuracy increase of 3/4 MOA+ Taking a 1.25MOA rifle to a Sub 1/2 MOA rifle simply by changing the firing pin.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After installing this firing pin assembly, the rifle lays quietly in the bags during dry fire and the accuracy went from 1 1/4 min to sub-half</div></div>

That is an incredible revelation and one worthy of repeat... in some circles that would be considered the holy grail of gains. Midway has Aluminum Firing Pin / Speedlock Assembles for $60, dollar for dollar that is the best buy ever for increasing Accuracy by more than 50% .

Also by your logic, you have this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another curiosity is that I also dry fired 3 AR type rifles and there was no perceptible movement during dry fire.</div></div>

So, it would seem you are implying that ARs should be more accurate simple because there is no movement in the pin transferred to the scope ? You saw no perceptible movement, yet we all know do to the movement of an AR, especially a 308 caliber AR platform, any accuracy must be earned. Wouldn't be the fact the two piece receiver design, meaning the sloppiness in the system doesn't allow the movement to transfer to the scope ? My new favorite AR10 type quote, is

<span style="font-style: italic">You can ride a boltgun but you have to drive a gas gun.</span>

There is a reason for this... however your conclusion seems to contradict this.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Absolutely you can find improvements in accuracy anywhere</span>, some big, some small, but your claim that a simple pin change alone will increase accuracy by this much I have to see. I have a text into Tac Ops to see if he changes the firing pin in his rifles. The ones with the 1/4 Minute guarantee, I suspect i know the answer ahead of time, but let's see what he says.

<span style="font-style: italic">That said, </span>
I am ordering several different <span style="font-style: italic">"Speedlock"</span> Type Remington pins, from the Tubbs to the Titanium and I am gonna see if my 3/8" -1/2 MOA Rifles go to sub 1/4 Minute shooters... Because if that is the case, any money spent on a new pin and the expensive ones are still less than a $100 is a bargain, so this I gotta see. If you are right it's a small price to pay and I am happy to do it, and do it on video for everyone giving you the credit you deserve.

Personally I think your observations are flawed, and I think building the position correctly you can reduce the movement by driving the rifle right, but heck I am not too small to admit I maybe wrong, and personally I think I can exploit the accuracy potential claimed here. Being I have several 700s, and their clones on some great barrels and actions, I am all about the increase if I can find it so cheap.

to be continued...
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

<span style="font-style: italic">Follow up, </span>

I spoke to Mike R from Tac Ops this afternoon about his firing pins in regards to his Remington 700 builds, of which he guarantees a 1/4 Minute Accuracy and routinely squeezes even more accuracy out of them with Factory Federal Ammo. In Fact a lot of them shoot in the .1s. He uses a stock Remington Firing Pin / Assembly / Springs.

So, after 20+ years of Accurizing Remington 700s to this degree, he uses a stock pin. He has had people request the Titanium Pins and according to him he saw no difference in accuracy. In his words, and I think this is an awesome quote:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"> Frank, It's a psychological stroke job...</span></div></div>
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Lowlight, where on earth did you get the idea that I believed the AR platform was inherently more accurate than bolt guns. I simply stated they demonstrated less perceptible movement during dry fire than the boltguns I have personally observed. The ARs I looked at all have had the uppers bedded to the lowers and does not domonstrate the slop that you mentioned. There are many other factors to be considered when comparing the accuracy potential of gas guns to bolt guns.

I also did not suggest that everyone that installs a light firing pin assembly would suddenly transform their rifle into a 1/4 min tackdriver.

The neat thing about all of this is that all one has to do to form his own opinion based on factual data is to go out and dry fire. Dry fire as many different rifles of different makes and styles as possible. Dry fire from hard bags, soft bags, no bags, bi-pods and anything else you can find. I have already done this and I have formed an opinion based on those activities.

Anyway I dont intend to post on this subject again, all you folks have the abilities to check things out and come to your own conclusions, GOOD SHOOTING.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

I have dry fired, I suspect in a more productive way than you as I understand the process of fine tuning my position to remove the movement observed during dry fire.

Also based on your posts in here, and quoted, there is no other way to read what you wrote in regards to your observations as well as your posted results. It's written in plain language, pretty straight forward too, this along with your question as to why it wasn't discussed more. Now that it is, you are moving all around the issue saying you didn't mean it the way you did. You claimed a change in you accuracy better than 50% simply by changing to a lighter pin, which is now your preferred solution.

No mistakes here, in fact I already went ahead and ordered $220 worth of speed lock type pins of different configurations just to test your observations. I may also break out my IOTA and video the dry fire process, as I am sure I can effectively remove the movement. The question would be can I do so and film it through the scope. Still the real test is your stated accuracy gains from changing the pins, something I am more than happy doing.

You wanted discussion, asked for it, I am giving it to you. I even went the extra mile calling TAC Ops on a Sunday, and spent my money to try and recreate your claims and observations. In my opinion you can't ask for anything better.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<span style="font-weight: bold">Quick off the Cuff Video / Dry Firing GAP Gladius, Remington 700 Action, stock firing pin and assembly. </span>

Rifle off the bipod, using a rear bag, Nightforce F1 on 15x with IOTA Dry Fire training aid to focus inside 12ft on a 1/4 minute and 3/8th Minute dot.

This required me to not only set up the rifle on the target, but to also free hold the camera in place while manipulating the trigger. So a lot going on here.


<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KLys1-j5tVs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Well, you can determine if I am just lucky or what because other than maybe one micro wiggle trying to do 3 things at once, I saw no perceivable movement, so dear reader you tell me...



 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

Try adding some pressure to the forend especially if shooting from a bipod. You can do this by putting your non-shooting hand onto the forend preferably by the checkering. Pull the rifle tight into your shoulder to help mitigate the recoil. I have done this on a couple of magnum rifles and it has really tightened up the groups.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

So Lowlight, you are going to get on here in front of God and everybody and make the case that bolt guns do not move when dry fired. Is this what you are saying or are you saying you can stop the movement with proper form.

Also I must have really struck a raw nerve to get such a response on a Sunday afternoon, also I would assume you feel financially threatened in some way for you to fly off the handle and order 220.00 worth of firing pins to prove me wrong. Could it be Lowlight that you have been telling folks that come to your classes that this movement is the results of flinching and poor form and that for a nominal fee you will teach them how to overcome their affliction.

If you are doing all this for my benifit save your energy, I was actually hoping to have a friendly conversation with other unbiased shooters. I really had no hopes or intentions of conversing with you.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So Lowlight, you are going to get on here in front of God and everybody and make the case that bolt guns do not move when dry fired. Is this what you are saying or are you saying you can stop the movement with proper form.

Also I must have really struck a raw nerve to get such a response on a Sunday afternoon, also I would assume you feel financially threatened in some way for you to fly off the handle and order 220.00 worth of firing pins to prove me wrong. Could it be Lowlight that you have been telling folks that come to your classes that this movement is the results of flinching and poor form and that for a nominal fee you will teach them how to overcome their affliction.

If you are doing all this for my benifit save your energy, I was actually hoping to have a friendly conversation with other unbiased shooters. I really had no hopes or intentions of conversing with you. </div></div>

Considering I don't work at Rifles Only anymore, I am not asking anyone to pay for anything from me, I can't recall pimping a single class here... and are you gonna stand here in front of God as you put it and tell me the reticle is moving in those videos as much as you described and its not just me trying to hold the camera ?

I am saying, Dry Fire is the Fine Tune adjustment for NPA and that eliminating the movement is possible with the proper application of the fundamentals. Nothing more, all this tells me, you haven't the first clue on what constitutes the proper application. Can I make a bolt guns reticle not move, Absolutely I can.

I will also say it is possible for someone to have shot for 45 years, killed animals, hitting targets and still not know the first thing about proper shooting... happens everyday and it is possible that seeing something and not understanding what you see is one way to describe your observations, because clearly, as in my video I can demonstrate the opposite.

As far as it being a Sunday, it's just another lazy day not much happening, so it's pretty easy to poke holes in someone's claim of an accuracy increase of 3/4 + MOA as you did, that is my issue, and the fact you said:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont mean to hi-jack this thread and we can move it if necessary. I am now very curious as to why there is not more discussion about firing pin induced movement and its effect on accuracy. Maybe there has been a lot of discussion and I have just missed it.</div></div>

So here I am,

I know I have proven results from a wide cross section of shooters, not with some pretty outlandish claims like they should go and buy some accuracy enhancing product, but with proper education and with the proper application of the fundamentals of marksmanship, a lot can be accomplished. You on the hand think a Firing Pin solves this problem and wondered out loud why nobody bothered to discuss this revelation. But when Sterling and I came on and hit you with a Marksmanship Fundamental Discussion you instantly got defensive son the subject and started tap dancing. You have nothing to state in your defense because clearly I demonstrated something you can't, in a 1 minute video, and here you are changing the subject as if you struck a nerve ? No Did I ? You're the one that said you wouldn't be back, I simply call Bullshit when I see it, and being not much is happening today, gives me something productive to do so the next unsuspecting new shooter isn't baffled by your foundation of it.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

When I was just getting started shooting rifles, I have seen very small reticle movement on my heavy bolt rifle during dry fire practice. However, after learning to adjust my body for correct NPA coupled with correct trigger press AND follow through(straight back to the rear) that small amount of movement dissappears.

I do notice that while I'm at the range, if I start losing my target in my feild of view on recoil, I'll run a few dry fires and my reticle will move ever so slightly. That's my cue that my NPA or my trigger pull is off. I stop and rebuild position, make sure I'm not tensing my shoulder then dry fire to check my position/trigger pull (looking for any reticle movement). If it's good to go, I resume live fire and most of the time I'm right back where I need to be regarding my body position and I can spot my impacts from 100 yards on out. Just my .02
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

Frogman, thanks for the civil reply. On the 338 rifle the movement was particularly severe and we dry fired it many times, no one could make the thing be still. If a soft sandbag was placed out near the end of the forearm with the sling studs engaged the movement was dampened somewhat but it was still around 1/2 min with it occasionally jumping 3/4 to a min.

If all this movement is occuring prior to ignition, there is no way this rifle is going to shoot well. Even if someone with superior skills has the ability to stop the movement with perfect form it would make sense to me to mechanically eliminate this part of the puzzle if possible. After the new firing pin was installed everyone who dry fired it reported zero movement. That has got to be a good thing.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

Too funny his reply was civil, but when I said it, there was a problem, and you didn't believe it could be done.. Even repeated the assertion that in front of God I was making it up. You couldn't do it so nobody could.

If you want me to come over and give you a class let me know I'll make some time available. Maybe we'll actually teach an old dog a new trick.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

I have to agree with LL on this. Accuracy gains, if any, from a simple firing pin or spring change will be a non measureable amount. Long before I was building rifles for anyone else, the circle I ran with tried all sorts of voodoo and componant changes. None worked as good as practice and good barrels. The speed lock kits will have a faster lock time but, you wont be able to measure it and your bolt lift will be heavier, the accuracy gains will be non-measurable if they even exist.

Making a rifle shoot in the .2's or .1's is fairly simple, been doing it for years with re-barreled Remington 700's, OEM firing pins and OEM springs. You'd be money ahead to spend the money on bushing your firing pin hole and making the firing pin tip captive. There are accuracy gains in that respect because it does effect ignition in a positive way.

OP, if you cant preload the bipod and get your NPOA the same everytime, your spinning your wheels. Save your money on the FP change out.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

Firearms Fundamentals trumps all else.

Learn it, Live it, Practice it.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogrider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get away from the Bi pod. Get some good bags for the front. Mold the weapon to the bag and do not push on the weapon-no need to. Get a smaller bag for the back, practice trigger control, breathing and follow through. Wait 2/3 minutes between shots and make sure you get the same position and sight picture every time. DO NOT compensate. Shoot groups and then make any necessary adjustments. </div></div>


PERFECT advise..
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

wnroscoe, if you bag your rifle in and trip the trigger w/o holding the rifle do you see movement in the position of the reticle on the target when dry fired.

Lowlight, I really dont have a problem shooting little bugholes with several different rifles at will and on demand. You talk as if I am having problems making any rifle shoot well, I really dont. The 338 rifle I mentioned has been partiularly difficult to get to group well. Please dont tell me that I just cant handle the recoil, I also shoot a 338/408 and a 375/408. The 338/408 is consistantly sub-half and I fired a lot of groups with the 375/408 that were in the .2s and 3s during recent tests of Cutting Edge solids. I am well aware of the importance of good form. The reason I dismissed your response is that for a very long time now I have watched individuals ask for help when having difficulty getting a rifle to group. You have repeatedly told the folks their problem was poor form. Really you have no idea what kind of problem a shooter is having if he cant get good groups. Granted the problem may very well be rooted in his position, breathing, trigger control, flinching or who knows what else. It also may be because the rifle is not capable of producing the kind of groups desired. It may be something loose, a scope that wont stay hooked or some other mechanical or ammunition related problem.

Also as soon as I seen that you had posted I knew where this was going. I knew you were going to attempt to intimidate, marginalize, belittle and do the same thing to me that you did to the folks discussing spin drift a while back. Maybe now another video pertaining to firing pin induced movement would be in order to complete the smear campaign you have embarked on. As far as coming down and showing an old dog new tricks-- please dont. I dont like you and neither of us would enjoy the visit.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Well sorry to tell you, you deserve to be marginalized for what you said, it's beyond defense as you have clearly shown here. You can't defend it, you just stated you had one problem rifle and offered this up.

Simple fact is the shooter is the biggest problem, end of discussion. Especially when the problem goes well beyond an MOA. I've been around long enoughto be able to read it in the way people write it whether they understand the basics of marksmanship. When they don't, like you, it's easier to fix them instead of offering a red herring like a firing pin change as you did. You claim to know things, well I beg to differ. I hope for the other guys sake they aren't paying you test things shooting related like bullets for accuracy. If you notice I didn't even address the original post, wasnt really worth it. But once you doubled down on your line of bullshit, you got my attention, not the original post.

Here you have a choice, you can attempt to use your half baked bullshit to counter me, and let everyone ses me expose you, not with deflection, but on the merits of your claims like I have already done. of you can find another place to fool people who might not know better. See I have lots of time, plenty of space and all kinds of video equipment and will take you on point by point for everyone to see. I am so secure in my knowledge and abilities behind a rifle, I think it will be rather fun. Heck that is the reason I got the firing pins, just to haunt you and show people that even a blind squirrel like you can find a nut, but it doesn't make you proficient at it.

Since you weren't smart enough to leave it alone, all make it my business to show people just how little you know. I have no problem putting myself and my abilities out there, how about you, might tarnish a bit of that shine you got people thinking you have.

As far as not liking me, heck join the club. Maybe you can start an I hate lowlight fan page on facebook.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

I know the fire mechanism induced movement Aug is speaking about as I have watched it happen while dry firing myself .As Im in bed I wont get up and test it. I would imagine a weaker spring would help to reduce this movement also and possibly a tighter hold both with hand on the stock and forward pressure on the bipod
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

Firing pin induced movement... clutching at straws a bit here fellas?
I'm not sure how you could rationalize this = "i am convinced much of the accuracy problems folks are dealing with has its roots in firing pin induced movement."

considering the other much larger effects caused by the shooter for example trigger pull/cant amongst others would drown out any noticeable affect of firing pin induced movement much the same as it does for spin drift.

practice X 10000000
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

if holding ones rifle firmly i wouldn't think I would have to much movement but if shooting free recoil I think it could cause movement- maybe im wrong,maybe not

practice X 20000000
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

I can only speak for myself, but if I detect movement dry firing, I don't blaim the firing pin or spring. But rather I adjust my hold and make sure my rifle is seated well, I'm aligned solidly behind the stock, and that my cheekwell is firm and comfortable...trigger pull follow through and avoid twitching.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

The lightened firing pin spring and/or less cocking of the firing pin mechanism has resulted in extremely unreliable ignition in a friend's rifle. I would hate to go that route.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing

I have seen with my 9lb Tikka (with mag and scope and bipod) that if your position is not correct the reticule will jump off the target in a particular direction. But when position is corrected, there is no discernible movement whatsoever.

Just as Lowlight said, the movement tells you that your position needs to be altered. And I'm a complete noob to precision shooting, so if I understand it, the idea must not be that hard to grasp.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want me to come over and give you a class let me know I'll make some time available. Maybe we'll actually teach an old dog a new trick.

</div></div>I need some lessons but I'm not sure I want to press buttons to get them.
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want me to come over and give you a class let me know I'll make some time available. Maybe we'll actually teach an old dog a new trick.

</div></div>I need some lessons but I'm not sure I want to press buttons to get them.</div></div>

Who needs the online training when you can just piss LowLight off? Granted, pissing people off that shoot better than you is never a good idea. Didn't get Japan very far.

-Travis
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

Let just clear one thing up, I am really not pissed at all, I find it a bit sad, and even more comical because I know in his circle he considers himself a bit of an expert.

If you look back to my original reply,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Movement during Dry Fire is generally considered a function of NPA... in fact Dry Fire is the fine tune adjustment for NPA after the Gross Adjustment.

Now, you may see this movement but, and it is possible it is related somewhat to the movement of the pin, but I am betting your NPA is just as much of the issue. If you have never used this movement to diagnose issues in NPA, or even Trigger Control, then you may feel it is from something else. But that movement seen in Dry Fire can usually be removed by a slight adjustment in your position. That is something we have seen.

The Human body has a pre-Flinch reaction to recoil, the act of Dry Firing is enough to induce the reaction. (Especially with guys shooting magnum calibers who flinch more than others) The body relaxes for a micro second during recoil as a safety mechanism to protect itself. By changing the firing pin to a lighter one you maybe changing the characteristic enough to stop the body from this pre-flinch reaction, the strike is no longer heavy enough is my guess.

But I have seen movement, but I have also seen a way to fix it, it's by adjusting your NPA to a better position, as Dry Fire is a test of NPA</div></div>

it was every bit as genuine as anyone else's, but read how he said,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also as soon as I seen that you had posted I knew where this was going.</div></div>

He also stated he wanted <span style="font-style: italic">unbiased</span> responses, you have to understand what he meant here, he basically wanted less than knowledgeable people to come on and agree with him. You see, the original post didn't get my attention at all, and even though I had read it, I moved on. His claims are what got my attention. Now, normally I would have let it go, but knowing how he a resident ELR expert, self proclaimed of course, his response here was very telling to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I know is that when I replaced the firing pins in two different rifles the movement went away. I seriously doubt the NPA was changed for three different shooters by a different firing pin. Both of these rifles are rock steady now from bags or bipods. There is zero movement during dry fire from either of these rifles verified by multiple shooters.</div></div>

See, this was his response to my quoted response above. This told me he had no idea what myself or Sterling was saying. He had no real understanding of the fundamentals which isn't uncommon for people who have been shooting a long time but never bothered to get educated on the subject. Because they have shot a long time, they can generally overcome this by learning to hit things without really knowing why, it just happens. Sure it forms opinions and hypothesis on the subject, like his answer in regards to "physics". Now I took physics in high school and admit I wasn't a stand out student in the class, but I am pretty sure he is missing the mass part of the equation.

Anyway, I knew at this point he was being disingenuous (<span style="font-style: italic"> August, that means less than sincere</span>) and I am sure he means it when he said he didn't like me or the fact I focus on the fundamentals more than anything else. I do. Why is this, because it <span style="font-style: italic">(read: me)</span> threatens his mystique among his minions. I am well aware the Line of the <span style="font-style: italic">"I hate lowlight fan club"</span> runs deep through the center of Oklahoma, and it doesn't surprise me he is a member. You can't fool people into thinking you're something your not if people like me come along and contradict and expose you. So giving me a wide berth is usually pretty smart for these guys.

But seriously, no hate, no anger, I feel it is a public service to show people that there is no voodoo to this, and changes like described will not fix the original problem. Let's face, doesn't take a physicist to see the original poster is lacking some basic knowledge regarding the fundamentals, even he understands that, including that the use of a 300WM is not the best learning tool. But that is his rifle, and he wants to use it. Hey I get it, which is why I never weighed in on his post. Claiming a firing pin fix for this gentlemen is worth weighing in on though, no new shooter should be given that advice.

I am sure I earned a place on the front porches all over Oklahoma for this thread, and not in a positive way. Heck his local penny saver will probably run a headline: <span style="font-style: italic">"Evil Leprechaun attack Local Hero"</span>. I accept that, won't be the first time, won't be the last time, and trust me, the line is very long and distinguished of those who hate me, so Augustus won't be alone. Plenty of company in this club...
 
Re: Horizontal Stringing / Video Dry Firing

I have no reticle movement when dry firing. If I do, something is wrong and I adjust myself and try again. Sometimes people dry fire like the gun is empty and then live fire a different way (grip strength ect). You must have the same methods for both. The random dummy round is a great way to see how engrained problems may be. Bipod, bags, AR, Bolt action. It doesn't matter. If you see it dry, you will see it downrange when your going live. I would bag it, heavy bags up front (weight helps) and try again. LL is right on with his diagnosis IMO. Bag it and dry fire till you have no movement. It can be done if your willing to change something. Doing the same thing the same way produces the same results. I don't consider myself an expert but I do teach people to shoot 5 days a week. I have seen a lot of people come through. The longer they have been shooting, the more engrained and subconscious bad habits MAY be. Ego is the hardest thing to get passed on those shooters. Good luck!
 
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