Hornady Sub-X .300 BLK 190gr. Ammo

[FuhQ]

Has anybody in here recently ordered any of the Hornady Sub-X 190gr .300 BLK factory ammo? Notably the ammo from GunMag Warehouse that they have on sale for $23.99 a box right now? And particularly from Lot #: 3232771.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/hornady-subsonic-300-blackout-ammo-190gr-sub-x-20-rounds.html

Mine just came in today, and it was brand new, factory sealed 200rd cases still taped up from Hornady, but I noticed something odd… The ammo is NOT loaded in Hornady brass. It’s loaded in brand new Starline brass… which is widely-considered to be very good quality and consistent brass, versus the reputation that Hornady brass typically gets. Which, despite the Hornady brass typically being a little soft around the primer pocket, and loosening up a few loadings quicker than other brands, I have had pretty good luck with it as far as making consistent reloads, especially in their .308 Win Match brass.

If anyone else ordered this, or if anyone from Hornady is on this site, I’d love to know what happened, or how this Lot # of ammo came to be loaded into Starline brass from the factory?

Can anyone else check yours to see if it’s the same way? It’s too late to call GMW or Hornady, but I’ll call them tomorrow to find out what’s up with this. It’s all in brand new unopened boxes, and the 10 box cases were factory taped & sealed from Hornady. The labels on the boxes are not creased from having ever been opened, and it appears to be 100% brand new from the Hornady plant…

Here’s a few pics…

 

[FuhQ]

Update… I called Hornady directly, and they looked it up, and that lot was loaded into Starline brass. That’s cool they can look that info up. So, I guess the question is answered…Some Hornady .300 BLK ammo was loaded into Starline brass from the factory.

 

[CMP70306]

Update… I called Hornady directly, and they looked it up, and that lot was loaded into Starline brass. That’s cool they can look that info up. So, I guess the question is answered…Some Hornady .300 BLK ammo was loaded into Starline brass from the factory.

Interesting, I stocked up on 3000 cases of starline brass back in 2020 when we couldn’t find shit for blackout ammo that wasn’t expensive as hell. Would have been nicer to get it already loaded from the factory to save me a few hours worth of work.

 

[Charger442]

I ordered that ammo and shot it a couple weeks ago. Didn't pay attention to the brass but I'll check. It was extremely accurate, but I had trouble feeding it. I think my gun is just very dirty and I need to hose it off. I may also ream out feed ramps, but one step at a time

Edit: looks like a few others that reviewed that ammo had the same issue. I like the ammo but if it's just going to jam after a good clean, we'll see what my options are. I'm not above regrinding feed ramps. This is probably why that ammo is on sale

 

[DHDeal]

I bought a couple boxes each of the 190 SubX and 208 BTHP ammo from a chain store. The 190's were in Hornady brass and the 208's were in Starline. FWIW, the Starline brass had crimped primers like the Hornady brass.

 

[FuhQ]

I bought a couple boxes each of the 190 SubX and 208 BTHP ammo from a chain store. The 190's were in Hornady brass and the 208's were in Starline. FWIW, the Starline brass had crimped primers like the Hornady brass.

Yeah, the guy at Hornady said that they often contract both ways... Sometimes they'll buy brass from someone else, but with the Hornady headstamps on it. And they also make and sell brass to other companies when they need it, but the other company's headstamp on it. So, your favorite brand of brass might have been made by Hornady and you didn't even know it...

 

[Charger442]

I ordered that ammo and shot it a couple weeks ago. Didn't pay attention to the brass but I'll check. It was extremely accurate, but I had trouble feeding it. I think my gun is just very dirty and I need to hose it off. I may also ream out feed ramps, but one step at a time

Edit: looks like a few others that reviewed that ammo had the same issue. I like the ammo but if it's just going to jam after a good clean, we'll see what my options are. I'm not above regrinding feed ramps. This is probably why that ammo is on sale

confirmed that the dirtyness of the gun isnt the issue. the bullet shape seems to still get hung up and it wont cycle. be prepared to modify feed ramps heavily. i will be doing so because i like this ammo for the accuracy inside 100 yards and its about the fastest load with an bullet that will open up at those speeds. we'll see how the 200 grain REX does also.

 

[Bobby Ball]

I've been meaning to post this in it's own thread, but I bought a box of bullets to load. I've never had such a hard time trying to seat bullets. None of them would hardly even chamber. Finally I grabbed my calipers and measured them. Every bullet measured .309 or larger, (simultaneously measuring all my other .308 bullets). I packed them all back in the box with the intention of returning them.

 

[db2000]

255 gr 7.62 x 39 Sub-X bullets in stock fyi.

Hornady SUB-X Bullets 7.62x39mm (3115 Diameter) 255 Grain FTX Box of

The Hornady Sub-X (Subsonic - eXpanding) bullet features a lead core. Long grooves in its gilding metal jacket combine with the bullet’s flat...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[MO Fugga]

What is the seating depth on those? Thx.

 

[db2000]

What is the seating depth on those? Thx.

I’d just seat to a little under magazine max COAL and see if it chambers.
I sized the down from .311 to .308 and used them in 300 BLK. BTO 1.578 and I could only fit 10.6 gn A1680 powder. 1000 fps so doable.

 

[towerofpower93]

I’d just seat to a little under magazine max COAL and see if it chambers.
I sized the down from .311 to .308 and used them in 300 BLK. BTO 1.578 and I could only fit 10.6 gn A1680 powder. 1000 fps so doable.

Any issues with sizing down the Sub-X bullets to use in 300BO? I wondered if their (presumably) lighter/less robust construction which allows for expansion at reduced velocities would make sizing them down a non-starter.

Certainly a helluva lot cheaper than the 194gr Lehigh offering.

 

[JR1200W3]

They don't expand for shit

 

[Charger442]

They don't expand for shit
View attachment 8354449

What was that shot into?

I'll take that jagged jacket for a wound channel maker

 

[JR1200W3]

What was that shot into?

I'll take that jagged jacket for a wound channel maker

You do you then. It was a straight pencil thru.

'll go with this.

 

[db2000]

Any issues with sizing down the Sub-X bullets to use in 300BO? I wondered if their (presumably) lighter/less robust construction which allows for expansion at reduced velocities would make sizing them down a non-starter.

Certainly a helluva lot cheaper than the 194gr Lehigh offering.

Lee resizer. Inexpensive and works well.
Those reclaimed bullet pics are a little concerning although I don’t base anything off 2 random bullets on the internet.

 

[JR1200W3]

Lee resizer. Inexpensive and works well.
Those reclaimed bullet pics are a little concerning although I don’t base anything off 2 random bullets on the internet.

Some dude told me I was full of shit and sent me these pics of SUBXs that had "fully" expanded.

LOL, okay...

 

[Charger442]

You do you then. It was a straight pencil thru.

'll go with this.

a straight pencil through of what? what did you shoot them into and at what distance?

any reason why you didnt provide this info the first time?

 

[JR1200W3]

a straight pencil through of what? what did you shoot them into and at what distance?

any reason why you didnt provide this info the first time?

A bone-in pork shoulder backed by five jugs of water and a 2x6. I fired three rounds out of a bolt action. 300 blackout from 25 yd. Two of the three recovered because they lodged in the 2x6. The third ricocheted somewhere and I never found it.

But don't believe me. I can tell you don't want to. At least your own testing. As you can tell they don't feed for shit. There's multiple posts where people are talking about having a hard time feeding in ARs because they are a long bullet and have a textured tip that catches on feed ramps.

 

[JR1200W3]

Here's a dozen of other bullets that I shot in to the same medium for comparison's sake. These include 55gr Hornady SPs, 120gr 6.5mm Speer, gold dots, 62 grain speer gold dots, 110 grain, tac- TX, 130 grain TTSX, 9 mm RMR nukes 147 gr speer gold dots ,124 gr gold dots, 147gr HST, 200gr makers. These bullets all performed as one would expect in a reasonable medium. I would say a bone-in 20 -30 lb pork shoulder is as about as organic to an animal as you're going to commonly get.

 

[Charger442]

A bone-in pork shoulder backed by five jugs of water and a 2x6. I fired three rounds out of a bolt action. 300 blackout from 25 yd. Two of the three recovered because they lodged in the 2x6. The third ricocheted somewhere and I never found it.

But don't believe me. I can tell you don't want to. At least your own testing. As you can tell they don't feed for shit. There's multiple posts where people are talking about having a hard time feeding in ARs because they are a long bullet and have a textured tip that catches on feed ramps.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just want the results and claim to be properly qualified.

It's up to me to determine whether it actually matters enough for me to NOT shoot that ammo anymore. But I'm also the much maligned outlier culling does on managed land and shooting hundreds of pigs with the oft disparaged steel case FMJ 556 ammo. Oh the horror!!

 

[JR1200W3]

I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just want the results and claim to be properly qualified.

It's up to me to determine whether it actually matters enough for me to NOT shoot that ammo anymore. But I'm also the much maligned outlier culling does on managed land and shooting hundreds of pigs with the oft disparaged steel case FMJ 556 ammo. Oh the horror!!

Yeah, I hear you. I don't care what you want to shoot pigs with, but for my standards I don't think the "successful" examples of the 190 SUBXs meet the grade.

 

[AZgeek]

I found the 7.62x39 SUBX factory ammo to expand to the point of disintegration into water jugs at 50 yards. Explosive effect best describes it. Maybe the extra weight in the 255gr version makes a difference?

 

[Charger442]

Yeah, I hear you. I don't care what you want to shoot pigs with, but for my standards I don't think the "successful" examples of the 190 SUBXs meet the grade.

ok, let me ask you what you are using these bullets on? Potential self-defense or some hunting application?

just curious.

 

[JR1200W3]

ok, let me ask you what you are using these bullets on? Potential self-defense or some hunting application?

just curious.

Either or, or both. Potato ~ potato. If they don't expand any better than a conventional 30 cal bullet designed for supersonic expansion then why buy them? In the expanding subsonic arena, they're kind of pointless in my opinion

 

[towerofpower93]

You do you then. It was a straight pencil thru.

'll go with this.
View attachment 8354453

Is that the Lehigh 194gr, or something else?

 

[Charger442]

Is that the Lehigh 194gr, or something else?

pretty sure thats the 200 grain Maker Rex

 

[FuhQ]

Other than random media tests... Has anybody actually tried these 190 Sub-X's on deer? Thinking that it would be a fun little quiet round in my 16" .300 BLK Ruger Ranch or 16" MPR .308 Win to pop a few does with next season. I make my own .308 Win subs with Trail Boss, as well.

 

[JR1200W3]

Other than random media tests... Has anybody actually tried these 190 Sub-X's on deer?

And still recovered the bullet?

 

[FuhQ]

And still recovered the bullet?

Not necessarily, just curious how the wound cavity was, did it expand like advertised, how far did it run, what were the shot distances, pictures of the wound cavity or while cleaning it, etc..?

 

[CMP70306]

Other than random media tests... Has anybody actually tried these 190 Sub-X's on deer? Thinking that it would be a fun little quiet round in my 16" .300 BLK Ruger Ranch or 16" MPR .308 Win to pop a few does with next season. I make my own .308 Win subs with Trail Boss, as well.

Carried some of the 188gr Discreet Ballistics bullets this year in my 30-06 but didn’t get a chance to use them. They are hilariously quiet through a Nomad L.

 

[FuhQ]

Carried some of the 188gr Discreet Ballistics bullets this year in my 30-06 but didn’t get a chance to use them. They are hilariously quiet through a Nomad L.

Yeah, my Nomad-LT & TBAC Magnus, and my .308 Win subs are pretty insanely quiet, too.

 

[Ledzep]

The 190's primary focus was to pass the FBI protocol (bare gel, heavy clothing, plywood, auto glass, wallboard, steel and penetrate 12-18" in 10% ordnance gel through all of it) and it does. Expanded diameters aren't going to look like 2000fps impact hunting bullets from a 850-1000fps impact, sorry.

Check state/local game laws for hunting. It will create a wound cavity comparable to a 9mm expanding bullet. Animals hit with them behave like animals hit with arrows-- shot placement is key and they're dead on their feet, but don't expect anything "shocking" from any expanding subsonic ammo.

I'd shoot a deer with a 110gr CX/GMX personally if I was constrained to a 300 blk. YMMV.

 

[JR1200W3]

It will create a wound cavity comparable to a 9mm expanding bullet.

How do you figure? This is an expanding 9mm bullet. Far superior to what the SUB X does.

If you said the Maker REX bullet produces a wound cavity like a 9mm expanding bullet it would be more believable.

 

[Ledzep]

The 190 sub-X behaves very similarly to semi-auto handgun cartridges. You have a 1000-1200fps velocity expanding cup&core bullet. They all live in about the same family of tissue disruption. (dramatically lesser than high velocity rifles with properly expanding bullets).

190 Sub-X, Bare Gel

9mm 135gr Critical Duty, Bare Gel

.45 ACP 220gr Critical Duty, Bare Gel

Tissue damage is comparable. Temporary and permanent wound cavities are comparable.

Now look at some supersonic rifle wound cavities...

.308 168gr Amax

6mm ARC 106 TAP

5.56 60gr TAP Urban

Lots of damage, lots of tissue bruising and displacement.

 

[JR1200W3]

Yeah, the issue is that I have never seen anybody recover a 190 grain SubX that expanded nearly as much as what you have in your diagram there. And that 9 mm bullet you're showing by comparison is showing anemic expansion for a 9 mm bullet. So your comparison is skewed. If I had a 9 mm bullet that expanded like that. I'd consider it a failure.

Here's a selection of 4 different 147gr 9mm bullets that I tested at 1000fps in the same medium that I described before. The 147 grain gold dots are a fail. (first bullet on the left in the photo)Their 124 grain gold dots expand great.(at common 9mm 124gr loadings) I included a picture of one of those earlier up in this thread. The SGDHP 147s will not do that at common 9 mm subsonic speeds. So the subx is not the only bullet that does not perform as a lot of people would expect. I mean hell the 147 grain xtps expand really well at 950 to 1030 ft per second. It can be done. And there are some good bullets in the Hornady lineup. I just don't consider the 190s to be one of them.

I also don't think FBI protocol testing is relevant to the civilian market. Especially with the focus on penetration. To call out the deep penetration as a design intent and strength doesn't make any sense to me. Subsonic rifle bullets that are not made to expand as subsonic speeds.... penetrate....a lot. That is the default. To make a bullet specifically for subsonic use, the performance attribute that you have to change, is expansion. If we want penetration we can just shoot whatever bullet.

 

[db2000]

What’s not really talked about is a platform that can hold high capacity and run bursts and FA subsonic. Accuracy and control is better than pistol equivalents. Feed/cycle issues can occur but doable with some tuning. For the record, I’m not promoting this as a true purpose for the round but it works and no one has really discussed it as far as I can tell. It’s fun to play with and a little better energy than .45ACP inside 50yd.

 

[JR1200W3]

What’s not really talked about is a platform that can hold high capacity and run bursts and FA subsonic. Accuracy and control is better than pistol equivalents. Feed/cycle issues can occur but doable with some tuning. For the record, I’m not promoting this as a true purpose for the round but it works and no one has really discussed it as far as I can tell. It’s fun to play with and a little better energy than .45ACP inside 50yd.

It's not a debate of cartridge; it's what bullet to stick in the 300BO

 

[db2000]

It's not a debate of cartridge; it's what bullet to stick in the 300BO

Yeah, by round I’m speaking specifically of the 190 Sub-X not cartridge. Should’ve been more specific

 

[Ledzep]

Yeah, the issue is that I have never seen anybody recover a 190 grain SubX that expanded nearly as much as what you have in your diagram there. And that 9 mm bullet you're showing by comparison is showing anemic expansion for a 9 mm bullet. So your comparison is skewed. If I had a 9 mm bullet that expanded like that. I'd consider it a failure.

Here's a selection of 4 different 147gr 9mm bullets that I tested at 1000fps in the same medium that I described before. The 147 grain gold dots are a fail. (first bullet on the left in the photo)Their 124 grain gold dots expand great.(at common 9mm 124gr loadings) I included a picture of one of those earlier up in this thread. The SGDHP 147s will not do that at common 9 mm subsonic speeds. So the subx is not the only bullet that does not perform as a lot of people would expect. I mean hell the 147 grain xtps expand really well at 950 to 1030 ft per second. It can be done. And there are some good bullets in the Hornady lineup. I just don't consider the 190s to be one of them.


I also don't think FBI protocol testing is relevant to the civilian market. Especially with the focus on penetration. To call out the deep penetration as a design intent and strength doesn't make any sense to me. Subsonic rifle bullets that are not made to expand as subsonic speeds.... penetrate....a lot. That is the default. To make a bullet specifically for subsonic use, the performance attribute that you have to change, is expansion. If we want penetration we can just shoot whatever bullet.

We test every lot through the FBI protocol before the press turns on to run. We've got several examples from the last few lots still in the ballistics lab that look just the same if not better than the one I posted from our LE website above.

Did you miss the .45 ACP bullet that I also posted? I think you're missing the point. Expanded diameter is one thing, and more expansion with more frontal area will dissipate energy into the target medium faster, but another primary factor into the temporary and permanent cavity is impact velocity, and most all of these bullets (190gr Sub-X, 9mm expanding bullets, .40/10mm expanding bullets, .45 acp expanding bullets) travel in the same 850-1300fps velocity window that produce temporary cavities about 2-3" in diameter and 5-8" long. My point was that the .308 190 Sub-X creates terminal performance very similar to expanding semi-auto handgun bullets and based on my years of doing terminal testing for my job it does. Take that for what it's worth.


The ultimate goal is tissue damage. Really the ultimate goal is creating hypoxia-- starve the brain and muscles of oxygen. Whether that's hunting to quickly and humanely dispatch an animal or whether that's a self defense situation where you want to incapacitate someone or something as quickly as possible. The tissue damage is a means to an end. The temporary and permanent cavities in ordnance gel accurately represent the wound cavities and tissue/organ damage/bruising that takes place in live tissue. If you don't believe that or you think you have a better method, take it up with the DoD, FBI, and whatever other federal agencies that collectively possess mountains of data, autopsy analysis, live tissue testing etc... all of which lead them to the use of ordnance gel for analyzing terminal performance of small arms. Now there may be some discussion between 10%, 15%, 20% ordnance gel (basically the resistance level), but we're talking fine tuning depending on the expected target. Same way a barbary sheep and a fat whitetail aren't the same composition...

The FBI protocol calls out a window of penetration between 12-18" in calibrated 10% ordnance gel. This is to ensure that the bullet itself can reach vital organs/tissues, but not over-penetrate. Bullets that go less than 12" or more than 18" are penalized on the FBI scoring system. Think about mammals you might shoot and whether or not 12-18" of penetration makes sense... Also, the 190 was specifically made to reduce its penetration, not increase it. Bullets that don't penetrate 12", like rifle varmint bullets are notorious for being bad to use on big game. FMJ's and BTHP match bullets that penetrate well over 18" and don't expend energy early in the terminal track (temporary/permanent wound cavity) on the target are notorious for being bad to use on big game.

Shooting bullets into dead meat and water and measuring expanded diameter is not necessarily an accurate method to predict the terminal effect on target. Props for doing your own testing, but the DoD (and others) found out decades ago that dead tissue and live tissue behave differently. Dead bone and live bone behave differently. Again, calibrated ordnance gel accurately depicts tissue damage that you're likely to see in a living target.

Here's the deal, there may be bullets that perform "better" in a subsonic 300 blk in bare gel. They might expand bigger and they might produce marginally larger wound cavities, but no matter what that entire velocity spectrum of expanding bullets is going to produce very similar temporary and permanent cavity sizes and the resulting tissue damage will be very similar between most all of them. Am I driving this point home? There's not going to be a "Bang-flop" result from a 1050fps bullet. It's just like there aren't bang-flop results from archery hunting. Additionally, whether or not it's useful to you, the 190 has the benefit of being able to penetrate 12-18" after passing through the FBI barriers.

ETA: Obviously expanding is better than non-expanding. Non expanding makes .30 cal pencil holes, expanding makes 2-3" temporary cavities. That's significant. The other stuff is minutia. It's the same old 9mm vs. 45acp debate.

I've shot most everyone's stuff into gel and for the money (and the performance honestly), if I'm possessed to shoot an animal with a sub 300blk it's with the 190. In general, however, unless noise is a primary focus for your situation, I'd suggest shooting supersonic expanding bullets in 300 blk for medium/big game if you're concerned with terminal performance. I equate the subsonic hunting world to archery hunting in terms of how animals react when hit. Nothing wrong with it if it makes sense to you and is legal, but supersonic rifle shots are going to give quicker incapacitation.

 

[JR1200W3]

Obviously shooting supersonic is massively better. But we're not talking about that.

Your overall point is that all wound channels are more or less the same. This is an annihilistic point of view. "Why wash the dishes, they're just going to get dirty again". If that's your overall point, why make a subsonic bullet? Because people will buy it? So therefore, you will sell it? That's snake oil.

There's no way you can make an argument that gel is more accurate than tissue because dead tissue is different than live tissue...so therefore gel is better. That's some convoluted BS. I'm in DOD and I know how off and convoluted some standards can be but that's taking it to another level.

Yes, subsonic bullets provide very little differences in overall terminal performance. Velocity being equal, you get to choose weight and expansion. And the weight is very similar. So if you want a bullet for subsonic performance, you really only get to choose expansion.

So what are you going to choose? Given the same medium.... pretty much the same velocity and close to the same weight....

200gr Maker REX?

190gr SubX?

Or 9mm 147gr HST?

Go ahead and tell me my medium is fucked up and skewing the results... somehow in favor of every bullet except yours