HOW ARE YOU GUYS GETTING SINGLE DIGIT ES????

[7magsavage]

Ok, I chalked my shitty ES up to my even shittier Chronograph that I had for years. I picked up a Magnetospeed V3 a while back and to be honest, never used it that much. I attached it to my rifle just the other day and sent some rounds across it. I was amazed. My ES was something like mid 30s. This is the load I use for matches and for practice. It groups very well and I regularly shoot out to between 1000-1080 yards and make first round hits if I make a good wind call. I have been reloading for accuracy for 8 years. Lapua 6.5X47, Lapua brass, CCI BR4 primers, 40.2 grains of H4350, all brass full length sized, trimmed, annealed, powder weighed per RCBS Chargemaster, etc. the whole damn nine yards.
Question is, how in the holy hell are you guys getting single digit ES numbers????? I would have figured my ES would have been tight?

Steve

 

[TripleBull]

I've tried different approaches to getting consistent neck tension, like using a mandrel. That seemed to help. I am careful to get a consistent charge mass, concentric ammo, etc. The little things add up.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Consistent neck tension, Prometheus thrown powder charges, consistent BTO measurements, properly sizing cases and bumping shoulders.. this be my method to the madness. I don't bother to anneal, though I'm sure it would provide yet another improvement.

 

[spife7980]

Going from a chargemaster to an auto throw is what I think finally got me beneath an sd of 12.

And I know that the common line of thought is that lube doesnt effect anything but around the same time I began intentionally lubing inside my necks so I have half contribute that to the improvement as well though I havent directly compared to the earlier methods I was doing.

 

[tnc]

Ive never seen single digit ES. Commonly get single digit SD. Best ES I’ve achieved is 17. If I understand it correctly to have a single digit ES you’d have to have an SD of 1 or 2.

 

[HoustonB77]

The A&D FX120i is what did it for me. It is the single best piece of reloading equipment I own. The setup was $1,000 but it drops charges to .02 grains in about 8 seconds.

 

[dttheliman]

Auto throw and anneal - weigh everything and I still struggle

- Average2818.92fps
- Highest2825.03fps
- Lowest2808.51fps
- Ext. Spread16.52fps
- Std. Dev6.72fps

 

[Stpilot12]

I've never seen a single digit "ES" either, seen 10 a few times, but that's it. My SD's are usually 3-6. Neck tension and powder charge. Switched to bushng dies and mandrel set up and got an A&D FX120i scale. I used to think my chargemasters were the shit.. Till I got the FX120i, turns out my CM's were throwing +/- .1 to .3 (yes, .3) about 70+% of the time. I still use one of my CM's, I have it throw a grain under then toss it in the FX120 to auto trickle up. So now when I throw the pan onto the Fx the joke is, OMG!!! look honey, it got "ONE" right. Im easily entertained.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

A SD single is doable, but everything has to be checked, an the same. Including the bullet bearing surface to the 4th decimal place. You will not get there w/o quality projo's.

 

[padom]

Shot this yesterday.

A&D Fx120i / Auto Throw / Auto Trickler / 1x Lapua 223 Rem / Forster FL Honed with TiN Expander Mandrel


26" Bartlein 1:7 223 Wylde
80 Amax
24.6g Varget
1xLapua
205M
.015 Off

Series No 53
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2888.96 fps
Stats - Highest 2894.1 fps
Stats - Lowest 2885.53 fps

Stats - Ext. Spread 8.57 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 3.5 fps

Shot ID
1 - 2886
2 - 2889
3 - 2894
4 - 2890
5 - 2886

 

[Kopfjager1]

My problem with claiming single digit Esso is the sample size. When I chose my loads for 308 and 6.5, they were the smallest SD/ES of the node which happened to be .3-.4 gr nodes. However when I would would be shooting in a stationary position, gathering data along with chronographing each shot, my sample size would be 50-100 rounds each session and my ESs would raise to 13-18, one session being 24, all the SDs were <8fps though. So take what people are saying about their SD/ES with a grain of salt.

My load I shot yesterday with my 308, SD of 1.3 ES of 3 over 5 rounds will probably be around 12-15 fps ES. Don't get caught up in the numbers too much. Get caught up with making good wind calls. Remember ES numbers are your outliers.

 

[isofahunter]

Everyone on internet has single digit SD, ES and 10 shot groups sub caliber being shot. I do not have my book with me but think 308 is SD 10 ES 18. 6.5 is a little higher and my 06 is 10 and 21. Very simple set up but each step is same and documented. It is so easy to get wrapped around axle and spend more time chasing perfect stats than practical trigger time.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

If you are going to be competitive with people you will never meet, you have to divide your results by 2. You also have to shoot your 600 yard groups at 200 yards, and use terms like "all day long"....and "if I do my part".

 

[Jefe's Dope]

What's the standard sample size when determining these numbers? BIG difference between a 3, 5 and 10 shot sample size.

 

[padom]

I use 25rd for a good number. 5 shot as an indicator along with POI for load development

 

[TimeWillTell]

20 rds, chargemaster thrown, measured with MSV3, SD 6.7. ES was around 15 but i don't remember for sure. Def had 1-2 "odd" rounds that worsened the numbers though. Good enough for me. I'm sure an autothrow is better but for me this is good enough. Lapua brass, FL size, BR2 primers, neck turned.

 

[natdscott]

Everyone on internet has single digit SD, ES and 10 shot groups sub caliber being shot. I do not have my book with me but think 308 is SD 10 ES 18. 6.5 is a little higher and my 06 is 10 and 21. Very simple set up but each step is same and documented. It is so easy to get wrapped around axle and spend more time chasing perfect stats than practical trigger time.

I wish I could double like that.

He speaks truth. If you are getting hits at 1,080, it really doesn't matter what the speeds say.

I will also comment though that better barrels are, indeed, just that.

 

[Patty]

Consistency is the key.

Shoulder bumps consistent to .0005
Seating depths consistent to .0005
Annealing after every firing for consistent neck tension.
Lapua brass.
Small rifle primers.
Powder charges to .02gr
SDs are usually 2-4fps, ES 6-8

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I use 25rd for a good number. 5 shot as an indicator along with POI for load development

What scale(s) are you using?

 

[Patty]

What scale(s) are you using?

A&D Fx-120i

 

[rijndael]

What's the standard sample size when determining these numbers? BIG difference between a 3, 5 and 10 shot sample size.

Exactly. A single digit ES when the sample size is 20 is way different than when the sample size is 5.

 

[7magsavage]

Ok, so the take home message is not to worry to much about it. Which is exactly how I have been treating things.

 

[Kopfjager1]

With that being said, Id worry more about lower SD/ES numbers (<30fps ES in a large sample size) than trying to get a load developed below a 1/2 MOA 5 round group at 100. Everything in moderation.

 

[ssteve]

Ok, so the take home message is not to worry to much about it. Which is exactly how I have been treating things.

Amen to that. your es means nothing if you don't get hits and your es still means nothing if you do get hits. Only time I would worry about it is if you weren't getting hits and you had a es that could be to blame.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Ok, so the take home message is not to worry to much about it. Which is exactly how I have been treating things.

Once your scores are being held back by your ammo, then worry about it.

jhuskey's HardRock match is a very simple course of fire. Shoot 5 rds MOA (or better) at a distance of 600, 800, 900, an 1K in under 20 minutes with a 300wm or less an you will have done something. NO sighters or wind flags. That course has never been cleaned, never. So all the experts that have 1/4 - 1/2 moa all day, every day sticks, need to come an show the AL- Ga -FL - Tn guys (an many other area shooters) your secrets. Had a few IBS guys going to show everyone how it's done, but that did not work out as well as they thought it would either. Talk is cheap, but the scoring rings are never, untruthful.

 

[icu812]

Precise neck tension is the most important in my opinion. Couple thing I had to learn was that a slick layer of carbon inside the neck is a good thing and SS tumbling can have some unintended consequences on your case necks if your not paying close attention.

 

[Tony1320]

Switch to an A&D FX120i will make a big improvement but after a certain point I wouldn't stress over chronograph numbers unless you just want to talk about them.

Just go and shoot unless your having vertical issues

 

[trob_205]

Consistent shoulder bump, consistent neck tension (recently switched to running an expander mandrel die on top of Redding bushing dies), consistent seating depths. I have found that my 308 using 2000-MR, if I don’t “settle” the powder in my case I’m getting an occasional compressed load crunch with which was also messing with seating depth consistency. Switched to a longer tube on my funnel and a few quick taps on the case and I’ve solved that issue. I’m running a chargemaster and can achieve 7-10 ES depending on the cartridge.

 

[mgrs]

Ball powder, primers, and sorted brass. Perhaps the ball powder piece has to do with the consistency of measuring or throw.

I've never gotten single digit SD numbers with 4064, Varget, 3031, 8208, etc, but have gotten them often with TAC in .223 or 2000mr in .308 depending on primer, they do seem to make a big difference.

 

[winniedonkey]

Once your scores are being held back by your ammo, then worry about it.

jhuskey's HardRock match is a very simple course of fire. Shoot 5 rds MOA (or better) at a distance of 600, 800, 900, an 1K in under 20 minutes with a 300wm or less an you will have done something. NO sighters or wind flags. That course has never been cleaned, never. So all the experts that have 1/4 - 1/2 moa all day, every day sticks, need to come an show the AL- Ga -FL - Tn guys (an many other area shooters) your secrets. Had a few IBS guys going to show everyone how it's done, but that did not work out as well as they thought it would either. Talk is cheap, but the scoring rings are never, untruthful.

That sounds fun. And the results sound exactly how I would imagine them. That shit ain't easy.

 

[BigTex]

I throw the charge 0.5gr low on a Chargemaster, then move the pan to a Gempro scale and trickle the rest. The charge master is usually off by 0.1gr in either direction

 

[whatsupdoc]

H4350 Average SD
41.6 - 2734.16 - 7.52
41.7 - 2749.11 - 1.68
41.8 - 2751.36 -3.11
41.9 - 2756.26 -11.02
42.0 - 2757.47 -3.94
42.1 - 2761.20 -5.72
42.2 - 2773.59 - 6.24
42.3 - 2776.26 - 9.89
42.4 - 2784.96 -7.2

This is out of a stock RPR 6.5 5 shot groups.
Lapua Brass is SS tumbled, salt bath annealed, fl resized shoulder bumped .001, mandrel neck, loaded with cci450, H4350 and berger 140 hybrid.

 

[trob_205]

H4350 Average SD
41.6 - 2734.16 - 7.52
41.7 - 2749.11 - 1.68
41.8 - 2751.36 -3.11
41.9 - 2756.26 -11.02
42.0 - 2757.47 -3.94
42.1 - 2761.20 -5.72
42.2 - 2773.59 - 6.24
42.3 - 2776.26 - 9.89
42.4 - 2784.96 -7.2

This is out of a stock RPR 6.5 5 shot groups.
Lapua Brass is SS tumbled, salt bath annealed, fl resized shoulder bumped .001, mandrel neck, loaded with cci450, H4350 and berger 140 hybrid.

I’m hoping my RPR speeds up after a couple hundred more rounds. After 148 rounds I’m getting 2770 with 43.1 grains 4350 under 140 eld-x. single digit ES with single digit SDs through 42.9-43.4 H4350

 

[Rust]

In my F/Open rifle I got tired of playing with seating depth and neck tension so I just used minimal neck tension and seated the bullets into the lands. Made things a lot more consistent with fewer outliers.

 

[ThePretzel]

Careful brass preparation and a good powder measure (I'm using a Prometheus) or a good scale and patience with a powder trickler.

For brass prep I just keep everything as consistent as possible. I slightly oversize the neck with a bushing, then use an expander ball to give a consistent 2 thousandths of neck tension regardless of brass thickness (because I'm doing the final sizing from the inside the thickness doesn't matter). Case lube is removed immediately after sizing to try and prevent it from getting on the powder or bullets (or allowing small brass shavings from the next operations to stick to the case). After sizing I trim to length and chamfer/deburr the neck inside and out. Then seat the primer, I use BR4's but haven't noticed much difference between them and the CCI 450's.

Below are a couple photos from my load development on Saturday. I shoot 5 round groups for load development, so I'm not sure how much these are worth to you (and 2 of them had the LabRadar only pick up 4 of the 5), but they show that the process does at least give good results.

These loads were a mixture of Berger 140 Hybrids and 150 SMK's in 6.5 Creedmoor using RL-16, Lapua brass, CCI BR4's, and shot out of a Christensen TFM.

Best 5 shot ES was 9, with an SD of 3.7 (far left pic).
Best 4 shot ES was 6, with an SD of 2.7 (second from left pic).

The rest of the loads averaged an ES of around 10-15 and a SD of 4-6

.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I have a prochrono digital. It gets me within 100fps. After that I let the target tell me. I don't give a damn what the chronograph says as long as I can hit what I need to. People get all wrapped around the axle about this stuff. Shoot at the maximum distance you need to shoot at and find a load that gives you acceptable vertical. A lot of times a load that I have developed at 100 yard has worked well at 1000, sometimes I have to tweak it some. I have never had a load that would shoot 5-6" of vertical at 1000 not shoot 1/2 moa or better at 100. I don't shoot benchrest or f class, so I have never stressed about shooting less than half moa. It happens some, but I don't spend a lot of time chasing quarter moa. As others have said, anything that gives you consistent neck tension and powder charges will help reduce vertical. If you have the results on target you shouldn't stress about the chronograph numbers.

 

[Rhed]

Man, I remember being like that. Worrying about my ES..lol. I became obsessed and sometimes angry even when I got down to mid to high singles. Then I thought, maybe the temp of the barrel for each shot got something to do with it. I mean, alll metals has some kind of expansion with heat right? Or my Labradar. Can’t always rely on electronics right? I anneal through the AMP after every firing help me stay in the singles, I think. Still I get doubles at times. But never ever within lower singles. I run 3 CM lights simultaneously. And before auto charging, I always put the pan cover on cause maybe my A/C in my reloading room might throw the weight off. But I do dump every charge to a Dillon scale to cross reference the charge weight before I drop in the case. So far it’s been equal. Unless of course the Dillon scale is pulling my leg too? Aahhh, forget all that, just reload and shoot and have fun.. lol

 

[Beneviolence]

A velocity ES of 30ft/s (which is relatively large) on a decent 6.5CM will a vertical spread (diameter) of < 5" at 1000yds. I don't think that's too bad. Even a 0.25% error on the chrono is 7.5ft/s...

 

[Taz575]

I actually has a 3 shot group that a SD of 2 and ES of 4: Shot 1 was 2885, shot 2 was 2883 and shot 3 was 2887. I was sighting in an iron sight 223 bolt acton CZ 527 using 23.9gr of TAC under a 65gr SMK set at 2.23". I didn't realize it until I checked my phone after I shot the group (I was trying to adjust where it was shooting and get it sighted in, not do a precise target group). Same ammo batches for 5 shots were around 23-27 SD. All ammo was loaded on a Lee Classic Turret using a Auto Drum Powder measure. Even a blind squirrel gets lucky sometime!

 

[47guy]

Gotta love the 6.5x47 and varget...

Last barrel....

 

[47guy]

New barrel....

 

[plinkin]

New barrel....

What's your setup? Barrel make, twist, any special reamer, what bullets do you use, primer and what's your reloading process? I'm almost positive I'm going to 6.5x47 when I get another barrel. Looking for info

 

[47guy]

What's your setup? Barrel make, twist, any special reamer, what bullets do you use, primer and what's your reloading process? I'm almost positive I'm going to 6.5x47 when I get another barrel. Looking for info

I’ll get back to you when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning I’m outta town shooting a match today

 

[plinkin]

I’ll get back to you when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning I’m outta town shooting a match today

Thank you, look forward to the info

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

Factory savage rifle, hornady 140hpbt, rl16, lee turret press, chargemaster throwing charges. Had a 3 shot string with rl17 that had an es of 2 and sd of 0.8. I don’t think I do anything special, just found what my rifle likes..

 

[plinkin]

Factory savage rifle, hornady 140hpbt, rl16, lee turret press, chargemaster throwing charges. Had a 3 shot string with rl17 that had an es of 2 and sd of 0.8. I don’t think I do anything special, just found what my rifle likes..

What caliber?

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

What caliber?

6.5 Creedmoor. I use Hornady Match dies with a .289 Redding bushing.

 

[plinkin]

What brass and primer?

 

[lash]

ES/SD numbers based upon 3-5 rounds are not statistically accurate nor significant. They may give you an indication of the consistency of a load, and then they may just be showing you how random chance can affect low sampling quantities. This has been discussed before here and statisticians and others who know statistical sampling know it too. Point is that those three shots or five shots may or may not reflect the reality of your load. When someone says they have single digit ES/SD numbers and then shows me a picture of three or five shots, I find it interesting but not significant or convincing.

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

What brass and primer?

Hornady brass & CCI 200 primer.

ES/SD numbers based upon 3-5 rounds are not statistically accurate nor significant. They may give you an indication of the consistency of a load, and then they may just be showing you how random chance can affect low sampling quantities. This has been discussed before here and statisticians and others who know statistical sampling know it too. Point is that those three shots or five shots may or may not reflect the reality of your load. When someone says they have single digit ES/SD numbers and then shows me a picture of three or five shots, I find it interesting but not significant or convincing.

I agree completely. I’m also not interested in shooting 100 rounds over a chronograph just to gather a number. I’d rather just shoot and gather dope personally but I’m just a new shooter who doesn’t know his *** from a hole in the wall.