How do you manage inconsistent seating?

[DropinLead]

New Lapua brass, New 168 SMK bullets, Redding competition die. I measure and increase seating until I get to 2.212 base to ogive. I press away 50 rounds. Press once, back it out, turn bullet and repress and repeat a third time in hopes of reducing run out. Probably does not help but does not hurt and takes 2 seconds.

So... same bullets, same cases, same session, zero change in the Redding competition die. Some bullets when measured after the session are as much as .034 different cartridge base to ogive. How exactly does one get any consistency? I run the ALL back through the seating die adnd no change. Damn Ogive seems to vary a hell of a lot. Does everyone measure and separate bullets alone into roughly .01 groups before using them and then adjust the die according to the bullet ogive variance? If you do that then the seating depth will vary, no? Do you then use OAL instead of base to ogive measurement and trim the meplat and retip them so the bullets are the same length?

Just what exactly does one to to get eh exact same bullet repeatedly if bullets vary, and they sure do.

Thanks.
Frustrated as hell with SMK...

 

[Sniper260]

Sounds like you need to take the extra reloading step in measuring the length of each bullet on the ogive. That happens because bullets are not all exactly the same. when measureing bullets measure and few and find what the "suppose to be" length is.. then just sort bullets off that. then you may as well weigh out your bullets to sort them again too. it all depends on how tedious you want to get with it all...





just another food for thought, take a berger bullet and look at a few of them.. the meplats are all different to an angles or obscured somehow.. that what they make a meplat trimmer for though..

 

[Charlie Papa]

I've run into something similar before with too much/inconsistent neck tension, and also with compressed loads. Look at your loaded rounds and see if the there is a ring around the bullet from the seating stem. Sometimes it will distort the jacket and result the die not being able to push it in as far as other bullets in the batch.

If you're using new brass, be sure at a minimum you're brushing the necks with a lubed brush and running the expander ball of your sizing die through them. Also give them a good chamfer. If that's not enough to allow the bullets to seat smoothly with a consistent feel and not leave a ring, use an expand mandrel intended to be used prior to neck turning, or the turning mandrel. Sinclair makes a nice one. Also, Redding makes VLD seating stems for their micrometer dies that also help reduce or eliminate that jacket distortion.

I've never found enough inconsistency in the bullets from the major players (Berger, Lapua, Sierra) to justify the time needed to sort them in any way. I tried once and only found inconsistencies in my technique and measuring tools - mainly keeping them clean enough to be accurate enough.

Hope this helps!

 

[DropinLead]

Yep i run the expander through them, then neck tension them as well. Maybe I need to lube them better. 25 of them are 1.978 base to ogive, the other 25 are 2.125 +/- .015. They were supposed to all be 2.212. Could be bullets could be case prep I suppose.

I'll measure bullets and see if I can tell a difference. One thing I ran out of one box and switched to another box of bullets. Maybe there is no difference within a box but perhaps there is variance between boxes.

Either way you gave me a few things to consider. Thanks.

 

[Powermac]

Take your time and measure the bullets, might be your boxes are from different lot numbers and that the length vary enough just from that to give you your results. Might be a bad batch even.
If the number of bullets you changed from one box to another is 25 you got the culprit there.
I believe it is the most logical explanation for such a large variance.

If the seating stem makes contact with the tip of the bullet instead of the ogive, it will also give you inconsistent seating depth as the tips of even the best bullets vary by a fair degree, although 0.34 is too much for me to believe that is the only culprit.

If the stem marks your bullets, and possibly distort the jackets it can be the culprit, but a light polish might save you there, alternative is changing the stem to one that fits.
Redding have 3 different stems if i remember correctly, one standard ,one for vlds, and one extra long vld stem, i do not use they're seating dies so maybe the designation is wrong, but you'd most likely want the normal VLD stem.
Just as mentioned above.

Very compressed loads can also give you the results, it is in Reddings instructions that the die is not meant for use with compressed loads to begin with.

While even the good factory bullets vary a bit, the .034 is a big variance in your ogive measurement, and not a normal anomaly with bullets from the same lot that i have found, usually with Berger 284 180 Hybrids i find a variance of .003 to .005 fx.
Actually the new Scenar L's so far has been the mos consistent factory bullets i have come across so far.
Still paying 130 dollars a box for either, and having to trim, tip, weigh, and measure them all should not be necessary to begin with.
I sort them with the BCG, trim and point, and check the seating depth of every finished round i make, with the BCG and corresponding caliper tool, usually keep my seating depth consistent to .001 something.
Works excellent but is tedious work.


Yep i run the expander through them, then neck tension them as well.

Not sure what you mean by that sentence exactly, but if you use your bushing die with a expander ball, the only thing you possibly achieve is that the necks is worked less, and while the neck tension ends up being relatively consistent, the tension is set by the expander ball and not the bushing.

A expander die and mandrel ment for neck turning used to expand the necks, will usually give more consistent results and less runout. But as long as you don't turn necks a correctly honed standard die will usually give you the best results.
This simply because the expander mandrel will push all the neck inconsitencies to the outside, while the bushing die reverses that.
This is of course only true as long as you use the die without the expander, but if you do not then return to my first sentence.
So bushing dies are not as magic as some people tend to give a impression of.

 

[CBeck]

Yep i run the expander through them, then neck tension them as well. Maybe I need to lube them better. 25 of them are 1.978 base to ogive, the other 25 are 2.125 +/- .015. They were supposed to all be 2.212. Could be bullets could be case prep I suppose.

I'll measure bullets and see if I can tell a difference. One thing I ran out of one box and switched to another box of bullets. Maybe there is no difference within a box but perhaps there is variance between boxes.

Either way you gave me a few things to consider. Thanks.

Were the two different boxes of bullets from different lots?

 

[AIdog]

+1 on neck tension... run all new brass through a neck sizing die before reloading (even lapua) i chamfer inside the mouths too. smk's are pretty consistent but if u want to measure base to ogive on them go for it but they won't vary more than .003" (this won't affect your seating depth problem anyways). IMO .034" difference of seating depth is insane i don't even think neck tension could produce a variance like that. what kind of press are u loading on just for curiosity?

 

[DropinLead]

Redding press with Redding competition die set btw.

i run the expander through them, then neck tension them as well.

Not sure what you mean by that sentence exactly, but if you use your bushing die with a expander ball, the only thing you possibly achieve is that the necks is worked less, and while the neck tension ends up being relatively consistent, the tension is set by the expander ball and not the bushing.

With the Redding Competition die set I have, there is a seperate neck expander that just expands neck. Then there is a seperate neck tension/sizer that just sizes the neck. Two step process it is.

One thing, I have 750 cases that I prepped for days turning necks inclusing. I did it all with WD40 from expanding to turning. Those 25 cases have bullets that seat pretty much the same +/- .001. The other 25 cases were new that I neck sized only and chamfered. But I did it quick and and htey were not bathed in lube. I wanted to see if ther ewas a differrence between Uber prepped cases and quick prepped cases.

Out of 50 rounds:
25 are using bullets from one boc and they are consistent and the cases are also UBER prepped while soaking in oil.
25 are using bullets from the box above as well as from another box and and the cases were not prepped nearly as well. Of the bullets that I used from the box aboove they too are seated higher.

It could very well be case a case prep issue, you guys raise some valid concerns. I definitly plan on sitting down and spot checking 10 bullets from 10 boxes where five boxes are from two differnt lots jsut to see how consistent they are.

.03 is enormous I suspect the bullets don't vary anywhere near that much. I never had this issue with my carfully lubed and prepped brass in the past thus I suspect me ripping through a quick neck sizing excersize may have been the culprit.

 

[gstaylorg]

This may be a long shot and don't take it the wrong way, but are you absolutely sure you're measuring correctly with the calipers? Having .034" variance is huge, even if the lot of bullets is inconsistent. When measuring using calipers and a comparator insert, it is often necessary to jiggle the round a bit until it settles in correctly. It's pretty easy to "feel" when the round is seated in the calipers/comparator correctly. Not sure if that's your issue, but it can definitely throw the measurements off.

If your case necks are properly prepped (and it sound like you go to great lengths to ensure that they are), there should be no need to run them up in the die three time during seating. In fact, this may actually be causing your seating problem. Have you tried seating a few bullets with only a single stroke, then checked the seating depth? If you're having an issue with runout, that's another problem entirely and using three strokes on the seating die probably isn't the best solution.

FWIW, variation in bullet OAL doesn't necessarily translate into variation in seating depth. The seater stem pushes on the bullet slightly below the meplat. The comparator insert measures at or slightly above the bearing surface/ogive junction. Unless the majority of variance in bullet OAL occurs between those two contact points, you should never see much of a difference in seating depth. If you do, it's because of something other than bullet OAL variation.

For example, if the majority of bullet OAL variance is farther out on the nose from where the seater stem contacts it (most likely case), you probably won't see much variance in seating depth. If the majority of bullet OAL variance is in at the other end of the bullet in the bearing surface/boattail region, you also won't see much difference in seating depth. However, your case capacity will change in this last scenario because the depth of the boat tail inside the case will change.

In my hands, various different types of Berger .223 and .308 bullets typically vary in the neighborhood of ~.015" shortest to longest. I seat these straight out of the box and its extremely rare that I seat one and find the seating depth is off by more than .0010"-.0015". Most of the bullet length variance is near the meplat and it just doesn't affect seating depth. I also rarely see runout of more than .0015"-.0020". I open up necks on virgin brass using an expander mandrel first, then full-length resize with Redding Type S Competition dies. If fired cases have flat spots on the necks, I'll use the expander mandrel first, as well. Otherwise, it's straight into the resizing die (after decapping, cleaning, and annealing, of course). My point is that sometimes, simpler is better. The more things you do to prep the brass, the more steps there are where problems can arise. Unless your rifle has a tight neck chamber, it should be fine with un-turned necks. In your position I might be tempted to try virgin brass with the necks opened up and re-sized only, then chamfered, just to see if your seating depth issues are solved. Any time an issue like this appears, you really have to isolate the source of the problem, one step at a time.

 

[Charlie Papa]

I could be wrong here, but I'm thinking using any oil-based lubricant isn't the best idea. It has nothing to do with your seating depth issue, but oil will inert primers if it should somehow come in contact with them. I use imperial wax on the outside, and RCBS case lube 2 (same bottle I've had over 20 years) on the inside of the neck. Also used the wax on the turning mandrel during my brief foray into neck turning.

Also, I didn't realize you were using two different lots of bullets. Definitely something to check there. Did you notice the ring of jacket deformation I mentioned from the seating stem?

 

[DropinLead]

As far as caliper use, yes no issue there, no offense taken, I appreciate the assistance believe me. Any given bullet I can take out put back in and get the same measurment. It is not a measure once thing. I measured these several times and used different calipers, same reading for each bullet between calipers and between readings. As a side hobby I run a personal CNC so believe me I understand tolerance and mechanical sympathy.

As far as oil based lubricant, that was only for case prep, they took an acetone bath and blown out with an air gun, turned upside down in rack and dried for over a month. I do not have the rounds in front of me but I did inspect them for any visual difference and I do not recall seeing any. I will check again today.

Have a good 8208 XBR & SMK set up going too, I hope I can resolve this and duplicate my load I think worked.

The prepped brass sure as hell shoots well but adds variables gstaylorg, your exactly right. Althoguht my issue us with not so prepped brass this is jsut frustrating.

Going to sit down and do some measurments tonight. This is like freaking starting over. I am almost tempoted to throw out all my new unshot prepped Lapua brass, buy new Lapua brass and no nothign but expand necks and start over. I may just do that using AMAX bullets this time and be done with it.

 

[Powermac]

Okay did not know Redding had expander dies at all for bottleneck rifle cartidges, only straight walled and pistol.
The normal competition die sets are sold with:

1x Body die
1x competition neck sizer
1x competition seater.

So i assume what you refer to as a neck expander is in reality the body die, that does the same job as a FL die, just without touching the neck?
What you use to bump your shoulder back with, that resizes the case body.
Might be with a older set, or it is just something i have never come across, mind i have never bought a Redding set of dies myself.
Just individual sizers for my old 308 dies.
I seat with inline dies so never needed a set.
I do have a few sets for calibers i load for a friend though.

Wd 40 for lube? and bathing the cases in it?
Would not be my recipe, at least clean the cases when you are done with us or ss pins to avoid contaminating the powder or primers.
Some imperial sizing die wax, and dry lube is all you will ever desire, works better and a box lasts a long time.
You do get lube intended for turning though, but the imperial wax does it just as well from my experience with less mess.
Sinclair and PMA tool offers turning lube if you want.

As for your case prep only neck sizing and chamfering new cases, you have induced quite a difference in both case dimensions and neck tension.
If you use unturned brass and seat the bullets with the same bushing, your neck tension will be noticeably higher, neither will it be properly consistent as the inconsistencies in the neck is still there, and using a bullet to squeeze them to the outside is not the best idea.How much variation depends on how thin you have turned the necks on the previous cases.
Unsized cases will also vary in length, and this too affects neck tension.
Just there you have a possible reason for your inconsistencies, and from the sound of it a contributing factor.

New cases has less internal volume then those fireformed to your chamber, if you run compressed loads the powder will sit higher in the new cases and give you a seating depth variation.
And as i mentioned before the competition bullet seaters don't handle compressed loads very well.
The variation will be even greater if you only neck size your prepped cases after use.
Another possible reason for your results.

If the bullets are from different lots, and with the case prep difference, especially without changing bushing i believe the problem is quite solved.
But the best thing you can do from the process, is simply to go over the above mentioned suggestions, find the reason/s and learn from it.


As for your equipment Redding makes good quality presses and dies, so not likely the fault is there, except for the possible seating stems.

 

[DropinLead]

I just measured 4 different boxes of SMK from 4 different lots. They were all within .002 +- .002 of each other. Amax was a bit better but not statistically significant. At this point I have to think when rushing through new cases to prep I botched them somehow and got the neck tension all jacked up. I am going to take 25 additional prepped cases and try and seat them to what I want of 2.212 and see it does it. If it does it is no doubt a mistake I made with prepping the cases.

If you use unturned brass and seat the bullets with the same bushing, your neck ten
sion will be noticeably higher

I realized the same damn thing today Powermac while stewing over this. I do believe that may be it. Rather than trying to calculate I'll just stay with neck turning new cases.

There is little doubt I made a rookie mistake. Ohh I learned alright. Listen, thanks for working through this with me you all. Good news is it limited to only 50 rounds.

I am taking the unused 75 cases remaining that are not loaded that I rushed through that have all the seating issues, and I am going to completely prep them like my others. My km neck sizer is thread locked into place so I'll redo it all and then load the 75 cases. If the problem goes away i simply bitched the case prep rushing through it not realizing the possible implications on seating.

My bad it is a K&M Shooting neck expander, I just stuck in in an empty Redding case. Bought it all at Brunos they are local to me which is nice.

 

[Victor N TN]

If you're using the Redding Competition Seater die, try only seating once. The slip collet that's made in that die SHOULD take most of the alignment problems out for you. Depending on the brass.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I actually use the Redding Competition seating die, alos.
I get best results when I seat to 3.000 OAL and then com back for a second seating to 2.943 which is 0.015 from my lands.
For those shooting at magazine length seat about 0.060 out (a batch) then adjust seater to final CBTO and run the batch through a second time.

But there is a method, also, here. I use the feeling in my right arm as the bullet enters the case and slowly press the bullet forward. So from the time the bullet touches the rim of the neck to the time the bullet is down at the end of the stroke is slightly over 1 second. Don't just "ram" it home, feel the bullet go in nice and smooth. Use no more than about 10 pounds of force on the lever arm.

I should also note, I have over 2000 rounds through a Redding Competition seeting die, all of the loads being highly compressed, with no mal-formed flaring of the mouth of the seater.

 

[Charlie Papa]

...I am almost tempoted to throw out all my new unshot prepped Lapua brass, buy new Lapua brass and no nothign but expand necks and start over. I may just do that using AMAX bullets this time and be done with it.

Please send any unwanted Lapua brass to: Charlie Papa, mark package " postage paid by addressee." Thank you.

Sounds like you've got it figured out. Either that K+M expand mandrel or the expander ball in your sizing die should bring those cases back within normal specs.

 

[DropinLead]

Ok update, thanks so much fellas. I went ahead and fl sized the brass, necked expanded it, outside chamfered it then turned it and then neck sized it.

Here is what I noticed I all that. For some reason I am unclear of, the brass all had a lip that you could catch with your nail. That would prevent the brass from going all the way in the seating die leaving a seat that is high and varies as well.

I now have 75 properly prepped cases that match my other cases, I will attempt to seat them according to what I want and compare it to seating with my known good brass. Bullets all measured.

I bet they will seat fine and consistent, I suspect that somehow I bottomed the case on something flaring the opening. I suspect the expander mandril, I adjusted the set screw.

You will happy to know I did it all with wax paste and spray. No oil. Good tip, I have it not sure why I don't use it, I will not though.

Thanks and I am betting it was operator error and my issue is really a technique issue.