I've never worried about annealing cases because I've never shot that much or done much long range. But now that I've retired I'm doing a LOT more shooting. Especially the 6.5CM and 338LM. I've reloaded both cases from both calibers at least a half dozen times ea and the brass seems to be holding up well. Except, I'm starting to see differences in neck tensions while seating bullets. I'm using neck bushing dies so am I right in assuming that my brass is getting too soft to hold an equal amount of tension? If so, I would guess that it's either time for new brass or annealing? Yeah I know, nobody likes Hornady brass, but that's what I've got and it started out fine the first few reloadings. I bought Hornady factory loaded cartridges because the 6.5 140's seemed to shoot well for everyone, and I wanted to try the 285 ELD's in the 338. I've got a bunch of Lupua brass for the 338 so not a problem there, just haven't bought anything else for the CM. Anyway, I would expect to run into the same problem with any brass the more I reload it. So am I chasing my tail here in accuracy by not annealing? Am I losing accuracy with uneven neck tension? Or should I ask how much accuracy am I losing? I'm not adverse to buying an annealer. Or, just buy new brass more often?
- Thread starter coyotewillie
- Start date
this is just my stupid personal opinion.
from what i'm gathered from the interwebz - that hornady brass's primer pockets will probably loosen up and make it worthless long before you start seeing accuracy issues from not annealing.
you are gonna get mixed responses i'm sure. I'm at 10x fired lapua BR brass and never annealed and still shoots just fine. even with a little neck tension inconsistency. I did by an annealer the other week because a buddy gave me a good deal on it. I annealed that 10x fired brass for shits n giggles but haven't shot it yet.
if i were you - i'd buy lapua brass - and shoot the snot out of it.
maybe borrow/have a friend anneal some brass for you to test and see if you can justify it.
from what i'm gathered from the interwebz - that hornady brass's primer pockets will probably loosen up and make it worthless long before you start seeing accuracy issues from not annealing.
you are gonna get mixed responses i'm sure. I'm at 10x fired lapua BR brass and never annealed and still shoots just fine. even with a little neck tension inconsistency. I did by an annealer the other week because a buddy gave me a good deal on it. I annealed that 10x fired brass for shits n giggles but haven't shot it yet.
if i were you - i'd buy lapua brass - and shoot the snot out of it.
maybe borrow/have a friend anneal some brass for you to test and see if you can justify it.
I want to watch and learn here.
I think the brass hardens and needs softening .
I think the brass hardens and needs softening .
First, let’s clear up one thing. The neck tension issues you are experiencing are from the brass getting harder, not softer. Brass does something called work hardening. The more you work it (use it) the harder it gets as it changes the crystalline structure of the metal.
As to how much or even whether that affects accuracy, that is and has been a debatable subject that much has been written about. There are avid proponents from both camps of belief as to whether or not there are discernible gains from annealing.
I personally believe that annealing does prolong the life of any brass and that the noticeable improvement in neck tension consistency contributes to the general consistency of my loads. Many others feel this way to as is evidenced by the number of annealing machines available.
As to how much or even whether that affects accuracy, that is and has been a debatable subject that much has been written about. There are avid proponents from both camps of belief as to whether or not there are discernible gains from annealing.
I personally believe that annealing does prolong the life of any brass and that the noticeable improvement in neck tension consistency contributes to the general consistency of my loads. Many others feel this way to as is evidenced by the number of annealing machines available.
I'm on my 10th reload of Hornady factory 6.5 CM. I stopped annealing...no accuracy benefits for me but your brass will last a lot longer. I'm betting my primer pockets die before the necks give up.
Annealing softens the brass and removes work hardening. I have not seen accuracy increases.
VooDoo
Annealing softens the brass and removes work hardening. I have not seen accuracy increases.
VooDoo
Thanks for the replies! Interesting! I've got a minimum of 6 reloadings on each of the calibers. I see no loosening of the primer pockets yet. But the uneven neck tension is bugging me. Thats why I wondered if annealing the cases would help that issue. And of course I was wondering about the accuracy and if that would help that in some way too. So, what would help me on the neck tension thing? It seemed to me that an even neck tension would help even up pressures which would in turn even up velocity, SD's, etc.
Understood. I might have to invest in an annealer then! Another question...in the meantime would it help to step down a .001'' on my neck bushing size to increase the tension overall at loading so it would be a little more even after seating? Or is that going to be overworking the brass?
Better brass life and vertical at distance.
It very little to nothing shooting groups at 100.
It very little to nothing shooting groups at 100.
I have no personal experience to say whether stepping down an additional .001” will give you more even results in your situation. How inconsistent is your neck tension now? Is is allowing for extremely light tension so that a bullet can be pulled out using your fingers? If so, then use another thousandth.
As far as overworking the brass, an extra thou should be no issue, imo.
If you wish to hand anneal for now, there are a number of video tutorials on how to do it using just a torch, a drill and a socket that will get you started before you buy an annealer. While machine annealing is almost undoubtedly a more consistent method, providing more consistent results, hand annealing does work. It can get you back to shooting again and not worrying about work-hardened brass.
Yeah, me too.I still use the caveman method
I try to let my reloads set for a while when I’m doing load development just because I’ve noticed the necks tighten from cold seizure. Not sure if there’s much of a difference in poi but I’ve definitely noticed it when pulling bullets.
I don't know much about changing neck tension but I do have my own experience with annealing.
I inherited my grandfathers sporterized M1917 Eddystone Enfield chambered in .300 H&H. I shot a couple of his handloads from a LONG time ago. Every neck split and one of the necks came off the case and had to be pushed out of the chamber with a brush. I used a bullet kinetic bullet puller and some of the necks cracked that way too, but I saved most of the brass. I watched a few videos and made a holder from a chrome lugnut and skinny bolt. I annealed them in the dark in my garage, just heated the neck and shoulder until the brass just started to turn color, NOT RED, just start to look hot. I have since loaded and shot a lot of it and have not lost a piece yet. So neck tension, good luck to you and I would like to hear results. But it definitely saves brass.
I inherited my grandfathers sporterized M1917 Eddystone Enfield chambered in .300 H&H. I shot a couple of his handloads from a LONG time ago. Every neck split and one of the necks came off the case and had to be pushed out of the chamber with a brush. I used a bullet kinetic bullet puller and some of the necks cracked that way too, but I saved most of the brass. I watched a few videos and made a holder from a chrome lugnut and skinny bolt. I annealed them in the dark in my garage, just heated the neck and shoulder until the brass just started to turn color, NOT RED, just start to look hot. I have since loaded and shot a lot of it and have not lost a piece yet. So neck tension, good luck to you and I would like to hear results. But it definitely saves brass.
I've never had any bullets that I could pull with my fingers. But it bugs the hell out of me when it takes a bit of force on the reloader handle to seat one bullet and the next time I feel like I should look and see if I even have a bullet inserted as I lower the handle. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing. I know my shooting ability is the weak link in this whole thing anyway so I'm looking for any edge (read excuse) I can get, LOL. Thanks
I asked a bench rest shooter I know if he anneals his brass, his response was that he has tried it and it his accuracy went downhill, he needed at least 2 firing cycles to get them back to normal after annealing. You ask 10 people you get 11 different answers.
Why would you ask a bench rest shooter anything? Everyone knows that they are lost souls who took the devil’s dollar for one good group.
You ask 10 people and you get one of two different answers. Either they anneal or they don’t. If they don’t they’re wrong, but we don’t hold that against them. We're good about things like that.
300 yards
While not the best "groups" etc, for me I think it matters. Lab radar
AT 6.5, 24" factory barrel without checking lB, approx 1k rounds/140 SMK/43.1 Staball/210M/seated 2.8oal
First target is the 2x fired, not annealed, second is 3x fired, annealed. Shot about 15m apart, measured barrel temp was 85 at start of 2nd group. Shot off a bench with Atlas bipod and a rear TAB bag. Loaded the ammunition at the same time and used an OHaus beam scale as it's the "best" I have. Cases sized on a standard RCBS full length die with expander ball removed and then a Sinclair expander mandrel with cases dipped in the Imperial dry lube, not cleaned off.
While not the best "groups" etc, for me I think it matters. Lab radar
AT 6.5, 24" factory barrel without checking lB, approx 1k rounds/140 SMK/43.1 Staball/210M/seated 2.8oal
First target is the 2x fired, not annealed, second is 3x fired, annealed. Shot about 15m apart, measured barrel temp was 85 at start of 2nd group. Shot off a bench with Atlas bipod and a rear TAB bag. Loaded the ammunition at the same time and used an OHaus beam scale as it's the "best" I have. Cases sized on a standard RCBS full length die with expander ball removed and then a Sinclair expander mandrel with cases dipped in the Imperial dry lube, not cleaned off.
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I anneal after every firing, not just in the interest of accuracy/precision, but also to extend the life of the brass. My Norma brass had at least 20 firings by doing this; it was only 'retired' when rebarreling. The main reason for 'retiring' a piece of brass was that the primer pockets loosen, or occasionally a neck does split.
Provided the necks are turned so thicknesses are equal and consistent.
300 yards
While not the best "groups" etc, for me I think it matters. Lab radar
AT 6.5, 24" factory barrel without checking lB, approx 1k rounds/140 SMK/43.1 Staball/210M/seated 2.8oal
First target is the 2x fired, not annealed, second is 3x fired, annealed. Shot about 15m apart, measured barrel temp was 85 at start of 2nd group. Shot off a bench with Atlas bipod and a rear TAB bag. Loaded the ammunition at the same time and used an OHaus beam scale as it's the "best" I have. Cases sized on a standard RCBS full length die with expander ball removed and then a Sinclair expander mandrel with cases dipped in the Imperial dry lube, not cleaned off.
My comparison basically is a mirror image of this ^
5 shot groups at 300 yards my ES was almost cut in half. My vertical was better and my groups were noticeably better.
I run .0015 neck tension, anneal every firing, bench source vertex. For how easy it is to anneal with this I have no reason not to
Not necessarily
Please explain. I have noticed differences in neck tension during seating, where some bullets seemingly require very little pressure to seat. In checking the cases, especially neck thickness, I found that the case-necks in question were usually much thinner. That's when I started turning necks religiously.
It depends on how you prep/size your neck. Internal or external.
If you are using a bushing die its important to have very consistent neck thickness to get even neck tension. Think about how that die works. It sizes the neck by the outside diameter of your brass. If you are using a bushing for .002 neck tension but the neck is a little thick on one case, you get more tension. If it's thin on the next case, you get less. To get better neck tension with this die you might need to neck turn your cases. Especially after 10 firings and multiple trimmings, the same neck brass is not there. New brass from the shoulder has been introduces at the base of the neck.
To get the best neck tension we need to prepare the neck by sizing the inside of the neck. A lot of fellas are using a standard hornady full length die with the expander button removed. This sizes the neck to be too small. Then they use an expander mandrel to open case mouth to the exact neck tension they want. This prepares the brass from the inside of the neck, not the outside. This also adds 2 steps to brass prep as you have to deprime, then size, then mandrel.
Also, I have found the amount of chamfer really effect the "feel" of seating a bullet. Try this yourself, heavy chamfer a case and very light chamfer a case, you might find this is where the "feel" is coming from.
I was thinking of just sanding the expander ball down to a point it just straitened out dings without expanding.
That would eliminate the extra step except the mandrell.
Or use a 223 expander ball on your 6.5 die.
I was using a .336 bushing on my 300PRC....now I use a .334 Bushing in my LE Wilson Neck arbor die....and then run thru a sinclair neck mandrel to size to finish diameter from the inside....I've seen a nice improvement in verticle at a mile...this is with ADG Brass....not turned....but I do intend on annealing after the 5th firing.
We have seen some differences based on what you're shooting. My 338 LM doesn't seem to care if I anneal. 8 shots with lapua brass and I can't see a difference in groups. On the other hand the 6.5X47 starts dropping off pretty consistently after about 3 firings. Its not just me either. There are a lot of 6.5X47 shooters around here and all of them have noticed they need to anneal after a few shots or they can't get the groups they've been getting. When they do anneal they're right back where they started with tiny groups and very little pickyness about powder, bullets and primers.
So I guess the answer is that you'll have to decide for yourself. Annealing can be a ford-chevy type conversation with proponents of each side adamant that only their way will succeed.
Frank
So I guess the answer is that you'll have to decide for yourself. Annealing can be a ford-chevy type conversation with proponents of each side adamant that only their way will succeed.
Frank
The best thing annealing did for me in my 6.5 with Hornady brass using 40.5 of H4350 and 140 Berger VLD's was lower the muzzle velocity variations. I had SDs in the 30's & 40s initially, then I annealed them and had an SD of 15. Perhaps you should chronograph(if able to) your loads and see if annealing could help your MV variations? There's certainly no harm in doing it, particularly if it helps narrow the velocity spread.
I have some 300PRC that has to be annealed. When I used my .336 bushing...the spring back made the case mouth tension too loose....I went down to my .334 bushing in order to get enough tension....but I'm working the brass a little more. Once I anneal them....I can go back to the .336 bushing and everything will be great again.
I also use a neck sizing mandrel to open them up the same internal dimension. I noticed that I could tell which ones were 1x and which ones were 2x fired brass by the resistance i had pushing the next thru the mandrel. I had some 3x ADG that I ran numerous times through the mandrel and I still wasn't satisfied with the neck tension...it kept springing back and was noticeably tighter than the rest...even after running through numerous times.
So...you can see I just goldilocks the shit out of some brass....too loose....too tight....not right.....spending extra time when...if I would simply anneal and reset the brass to the same state across all reloads....it would be easy to get the same neck tension. At <1000 yards you can get away with a lot of stuff now a days....but when you are pushing 1000+...you need all the help you can get. Saturday...my Vertical spread was down right scary....I can't tell you in inches using a 27x scope....but I'd say in the 4" range at 1760 yards....and that was probably me...and not the ammo. That was some really good prepped brass I used Saturday.
I also use a neck sizing mandrel to open them up the same internal dimension. I noticed that I could tell which ones were 1x and which ones were 2x fired brass by the resistance i had pushing the next thru the mandrel. I had some 3x ADG that I ran numerous times through the mandrel and I still wasn't satisfied with the neck tension...it kept springing back and was noticeably tighter than the rest...even after running through numerous times.
So...you can see I just goldilocks the shit out of some brass....too loose....too tight....not right.....spending extra time when...if I would simply anneal and reset the brass to the same state across all reloads....it would be easy to get the same neck tension. At <1000 yards you can get away with a lot of stuff now a days....but when you are pushing 1000+...you need all the help you can get. Saturday...my Vertical spread was down right scary....I can't tell you in inches using a 27x scope....but I'd say in the 4" range at 1760 yards....and that was probably me...and not the ammo. That was some really good prepped brass I used Saturday.
Ya'll have inspired me. I just annealed 120 .243 brass tonight.
My opinion here, I anneal. I was one of those people that thought it didn’t really make any significant difference.....until I actually started doing it. I actually started doing it with Hornady brass before Lapua came out with their 6.5CM brass. As others have said, better neck yet ion consistency. I noticed it with more consistent chrono numbers. Tighter SD/ES numbers. Plus, it helps increase brass life. I first started with a simple drill and butane torch and did it by hand but have since bought an annealeez machine which works great.
I use the hell out of Hornady brass, never anneal it, I fire it 6 times, 3 for competitions then it’s practice for 3 and usually gone. I consistently get sub .5 moa and single digit SDs (~6) with 6GT, and 6.5cr. Hypothetically how much of an improvement could annealing give me? My answer is not enough to dedicate my time to annealing that particular brass. If I miss a shot in competition, it’s nothing to do with the accuracy or consistency of my bullets.
Having said that, I do anneal Lupua brass as I believe the life of my brass will be extended and when I pay lupua prices I’m trying to squeeze a few more firings out of it.
Having said that, I do anneal Lupua brass as I believe the life of my brass will be extended and when I pay lupua prices I’m trying to squeeze a few more firings out of it.
Ive always been curious.....At what stage, in either of your new or shot brass prep, do you anneal? Before or after sizing? Every reloader does things differently, with the same pursuits. But, here's my process:
New brass: Deburr interior flash hole, anneal, size/prime, trim, drop powder & shoot.
Shot brass: decap the primer, clean, anneal, size/prime, trim, drop powder & shoot
New brass: Deburr interior flash hole, anneal, size/prime, trim, drop powder & shoot.
Shot brass: decap the primer, clean, anneal, size/prime, trim, drop powder & shoot
Roughly the same, except I rarely have to trim and instead ID/OD chamfer after clean and before size and prime.
Lapua, No. But, I do with Hornady.
I have recived new brass from two manufacturers some of which missed getting trimmed properly.
About the only thing consistant with the less expensive new brass is it was not crimped.
Maybe I should treat myself to some lapua. Lol
One thing range brass has going for it,
it fit in someone's chamber. It's probably within .005 of yours. Lol
About the only thing consistant with the less expensive new brass is it was not crimped.
Maybe I should treat myself to some lapua. Lol
One thing range brass has going for it,
it fit in someone's chamber. It's probably within .005 of yours. Lol
i don't do shit to new brass except chamfer/debur and then run over a neck mandrel.
after the brass is fires, i anneal, FL resize, wet tumble, trim if need be, chamfer/debur, run over neck mandrel, and then prime.
after the brass is fires, i anneal, FL resize, wet tumble, trim if need be, chamfer/debur, run over neck mandrel, and then prime.
