I will be shooting 100 to 1000 yds, is 16x enough
Rifle Scopes How much magnification do you really need?
- Thread starter StarkCountyShooter
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Re: How much magnification do you really need?
yes.
I have 5-25's and 3.8-22's primarily, but run at 10-16X for most shooting, higher is used for spotting, target ID or when match directors pull devious BS paper games at 100-200 yards in comps.
yes.
I have 5-25's and 3.8-22's primarily, but run at 10-16X for most shooting, higher is used for spotting, target ID or when match directors pull devious BS paper games at 100-200 yards in comps.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Oh, and welcome-don't forget to fill out your profile if you'll be hanging around long....
Oh, and welcome-don't forget to fill out your profile if you'll be hanging around long....
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
what are you shooting? paper? steel?
i was advised that 10x is plenty for steel at 1K
what are you shooting? paper? steel?
i was advised that 10x is plenty for steel at 1K
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Generally speaking when it comes to "long range" lots of people do fine with 15-20, some do okay with 10X and a select few do it with iron sights...
It's more about what you are doing & what your personal comfort zone is rather than a magic number though.
Generally speaking when it comes to "long range" lots of people do fine with 15-20, some do okay with 10X and a select few do it with iron sights...
It's more about what you are doing & what your personal comfort zone is rather than a magic number though.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
mostly steel
I am looking at the nikon monarch X
mostly steel
I am looking at the nikon monarch X
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
5.5x22 is more than enough for what you want to do.Just my opioin.
5.5x22 is more than enough for what you want to do.Just my opioin.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mostly steel
I am looking at the nikon monarch X </div></div>
If you looking at the Nikon Monarch X and talking 16x, then you are focusing on the 4-16x50mm.
Those particular Monarchs have great glass, repeatable adjustments and are the epitome of 2000 technology, at 2011 prices.
What I mean is for around $1399.95 (MSRP) you get Mil reticle and MOA adjustments, in a SFP scope, that has a whopping 50 MOA of vertical adjustment.
You can do much better for the price. Look harder at some other brands....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mostly steel
I am looking at the nikon monarch X </div></div>
If you looking at the Nikon Monarch X and talking 16x, then you are focusing on the 4-16x50mm.
Those particular Monarchs have great glass, repeatable adjustments and are the epitome of 2000 technology, at 2011 prices.
What I mean is for around $1399.95 (MSRP) you get Mil reticle and MOA adjustments, in a SFP scope, that has a whopping 50 MOA of vertical adjustment.
You can do much better for the price. Look harder at some other brands....
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I can buy this scope in the $850 range new
I can buy this scope in the $850 range new
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement
I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399. </div></div>
A common complaint on the Nikon Monarch/Tactical 4-16x50 is they only have about 50 moa total elevation travel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399. </div></div>
A common complaint on the Nikon Monarch/Tactical 4-16x50 is they only have about 50 moa total elevation travel.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I have been running with optics with 14-17X max on the top end for years, never have had a issue getting out to 1300 or so, glassed a target @ 1950 a few weeks ago with the Premier Heritage on 15x and that was about the only time I can think of in a while where I thought more would be better.
Higher magnification is nice, but mirage is the killer. Like sobrbiker mentioned, its nice when spotting and the occasional diabolical small target.
Kirk R
I have been running with optics with 14-17X max on the top end for years, never have had a issue getting out to 1300 or so, glassed a target @ 1950 a few weeks ago with the Premier Heritage on 15x and that was about the only time I can think of in a while where I thought more would be better.
Higher magnification is nice, but mirage is the killer. Like sobrbiker mentioned, its nice when spotting and the occasional diabolical small target.
Kirk R
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
You can get a Burris XTR in the same price range and its much better. I had the Nikon (sold it), and switched to the Burris for my P308. I also have a NightForce on my bolt gun. But for the price I'm uber happy with the Burris XTR and I'm smaking 8" steel at 600 yards consistently. Welcome & good luck.
You can get a Burris XTR in the same price range and its much better. I had the Nikon (sold it), and switched to the Burris for my P308. I also have a NightForce on my bolt gun. But for the price I'm uber happy with the Burris XTR and I'm smaking 8" steel at 600 yards consistently. Welcome & good luck.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I feel that it's not so much the upper end of magnification that is important...but how much low end you've got that matters.
If someone built me a 3-40 x 50 that had perfect clarity through the whole magnification range, I'd be interested. The thing I hated about a 10-40 x 50 was that 10x is to much for a lot of hunting shots, especially predator hunting.
the 5.5-22 NXS is just about perfect, but when shooting with a partner, I do like having that x32 or x40 option to spot his shots and call them on paper.
I feel that it's not so much the upper end of magnification that is important...but how much low end you've got that matters.
If someone built me a 3-40 x 50 that had perfect clarity through the whole magnification range, I'd be interested. The thing I hated about a 10-40 x 50 was that 10x is to much for a lot of hunting shots, especially predator hunting.
the 5.5-22 NXS is just about perfect, but when shooting with a partner, I do like having that x32 or x40 option to spot his shots and call them on paper.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement </div></div>
Well, the weaver 3-15 FFP has it as part of the parallax knob I think. It's 750 with the enhanced mildot reticule which is the one I would get.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement </div></div>
Well, the weaver 3-15 FFP has it as part of the parallax knob I think. It's 750 with the enhanced mildot reticule which is the one I would get.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement </div></div>
Well, the weaver 3-15 FFP has it as part of the parallax knob I think. It's 750 with the enhanced mildot reticule which is the one I would get. </div></div>
+1 on the Weaver, I have two of them, haven't been able to put them through the ringer yet, but so far love them as much as my leupolds.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also looked at the Vortex viper pst but don't need ilum and don't like the looks of the ilum knob or it's placement </div></div>
Well, the weaver 3-15 FFP has it as part of the parallax knob I think. It's 750 with the enhanced mildot reticule which is the one I would get. </div></div>
+1 on the Weaver, I have two of them, haven't been able to put them through the ringer yet, but so far love them as much as my leupolds.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be shooting 100 to 1000 yds, is 16x enough </div></div>
yes.
people think that more magnification is the answer. It can often be a problem...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be shooting 100 to 1000 yds, is 16x enough </div></div>
yes.
people think that more magnification is the answer. It can often be a problem...
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
If it makes you feel better I was shooting at 1200 yards using 14x. My scope was a NF 5.5-22x56.
22X was great for shooting groups at 100 yards but not much else.
If it makes you feel better I was shooting at 1200 yards using 14x. My scope was a NF 5.5-22x56.
22X was great for shooting groups at 100 yards but not much else.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have .Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow''
Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have .Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow''
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have. Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow'' </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have. Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow'' </div></div>
+1
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I run 5-25x scopes on my rifles. Do I always need the power? Nope. I usually use between 10-18x but if I need it I have it. That's the joy of a large power range FFP scope.
I have shot to 2000 yards on 17x also and it worked fine but being able to see what you are shooting at helps in hitting that item.
Target size is a big factor. Always the people saying "you don't need more than 10x to shoot to 1000 yards". Well you don't need that. People do it with iron sights but their targets are also 6 feet square! If you are shooting items that will be MOA or smaller in size then having a good power range up to atleast 15x is a good thing to have.
I run 5-25x scopes on my rifles. Do I always need the power? Nope. I usually use between 10-18x but if I need it I have it. That's the joy of a large power range FFP scope.
I have shot to 2000 yards on 17x also and it worked fine but being able to see what you are shooting at helps in hitting that item.
Target size is a big factor. Always the people saying "you don't need more than 10x to shoot to 1000 yards". Well you don't need that. People do it with iron sights but their targets are also 6 feet square! If you are shooting items that will be MOA or smaller in size then having a good power range up to atleast 15x is a good thing to have.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have .Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow''</div></div>
Agreed. If you belong to a club, go there and talk to the old pros that shoot there long distance. I belong to a club locally where they shoot both 600yards to 1K, and you would be hard press to find anyone who would suggest not getting as high magnification as you can afford. If you are using it for hunting that is another matter, steel is also probably OK, but if you are doing F-class etc, go high mag..... you will kick yourself later if you don't. Basically you can’t hit what you can’t see, the x-ring on a NRA 600 yard target is only 3” in diameter. FWIW, I use a NF NXS 8-32x56.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many would leave you hamstrung with less Mag than you could have .Magnification is wonderful and i believe this ''get as much as you can and use as much as you need or as much as conditions allow''</div></div>
Agreed. If you belong to a club, go there and talk to the old pros that shoot there long distance. I belong to a club locally where they shoot both 600yards to 1K, and you would be hard press to find anyone who would suggest not getting as high magnification as you can afford. If you are using it for hunting that is another matter, steel is also probably OK, but if you are doing F-class etc, go high mag..... you will kick yourself later if you don't. Basically you can’t hit what you can’t see, the x-ring on a NRA 600 yard target is only 3” in diameter. FWIW, I use a NF NXS 8-32x56.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
You might not need illumination, but I just got my 4-16x50 Viper PST in the mail today, first real nice scope (was using a Vortex Crossfire). I was putting bullets through the same hole at a little more than 100 yards after only a few minutes. It was my first time using that brand new scope and my second time ever shooting my new rifle (Remington 700). I have never shot a bolt action previously, so to say the least I am not the most experienced. Check out the PST, it is the best bang for the buck imo. Oh, and I know plenty of people that ring steel out to 1000 yards with 10x.
You might not need illumination, but I just got my 4-16x50 Viper PST in the mail today, first real nice scope (was using a Vortex Crossfire). I was putting bullets through the same hole at a little more than 100 yards after only a few minutes. It was my first time using that brand new scope and my second time ever shooting my new rifle (Remington 700). I have never shot a bolt action previously, so to say the least I am not the most experienced. Check out the PST, it is the best bang for the buck imo. Oh, and I know plenty of people that ring steel out to 1000 yards with 10x.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
And Vortex has customer service that is second to none. I will never go to another manufacturer.
And Vortex has customer service that is second to none. I will never go to another manufacturer.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Also, I don't know where you're at, but here in SW FL, getting anything with an extremely high magnification (above 18x) is a waste. The mirage is always way too intense at those levels. There are probably one or two mornings a year when that is not an issue.
Also, I don't know where you're at, but here in SW FL, getting anything with an extremely high magnification (above 18x) is a waste. The mirage is always way too intense at those levels. There are probably one or two mornings a year when that is not an issue.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
In case you don't know why higher Magnification can be a problem much past 20 power and on a warm day with every heart beat your reticle looks like you've had about 6 beers too many. At that point it's totally worthless and a huge distraction cause it's bouncing all over the place. But on a nice cool morning 42X at 600 can be nice. My experience 12X at 600 is fine. No experience out to 1,000 yet.
Good luck choose wisely.
In case you don't know why higher Magnification can be a problem much past 20 power and on a warm day with every heart beat your reticle looks like you've had about 6 beers too many. At that point it's totally worthless and a huge distraction cause it's bouncing all over the place. But on a nice cool morning 42X at 600 can be nice. My experience 12X at 600 is fine. No experience out to 1,000 yet.
Good luck choose wisely.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Most people use their scope in more than one specific application.
For example, I use my scope in load development where my rifle is clamped tightly to a vice on a bench. The high mag allows me to aim very precisely to an exact spot reproducibly and with 32x, I don’t even need a sighting scope to tell me where the rounds are hitting. If you cannot tell exactly where you are aiming, how are you going to ensure where you are aiming when trying to assess if a load is sub-MOA (that is a group with a diameter less than an inch)?
At the 600 yards range when I shoot my OBR, I shoot F-class so I have both a bipod up front and a bag at the rear, so heart beat is not a huge issue, so again with the 32x, I know I am aiming at the X and not somewhere around there….
When I shoot my 20” stealth at 600 with only the bipod, it is more challenging but frankly compared to off hand at 100 yards, the little wiggle due to heart beat is nothing. If it gets too difficult because one finds it hard to control the POA, or the mirage gets too much, you can always dial back. Mine goes down to 8x but I have never used it there.
The key is unless you are shooting at something really close, that 8X is going to be more than low enough but the 8-32x range will cover your needs. If you buy something like 2.5-10x (which I have), you don’t have that option if you shoot in the above situations.
I am not saying the 8-32x is right for everyone, but the trick here is knowing what your applications are before you buy your scope and make your decision accordingly.
Most people use their scope in more than one specific application.
For example, I use my scope in load development where my rifle is clamped tightly to a vice on a bench. The high mag allows me to aim very precisely to an exact spot reproducibly and with 32x, I don’t even need a sighting scope to tell me where the rounds are hitting. If you cannot tell exactly where you are aiming, how are you going to ensure where you are aiming when trying to assess if a load is sub-MOA (that is a group with a diameter less than an inch)?
At the 600 yards range when I shoot my OBR, I shoot F-class so I have both a bipod up front and a bag at the rear, so heart beat is not a huge issue, so again with the 32x, I know I am aiming at the X and not somewhere around there….
When I shoot my 20” stealth at 600 with only the bipod, it is more challenging but frankly compared to off hand at 100 yards, the little wiggle due to heart beat is nothing. If it gets too difficult because one finds it hard to control the POA, or the mirage gets too much, you can always dial back. Mine goes down to 8x but I have never used it there.
The key is unless you are shooting at something really close, that 8X is going to be more than low enough but the 8-32x range will cover your needs. If you buy something like 2.5-10x (which I have), you don’t have that option if you shoot in the above situations.
I am not saying the 8-32x is right for everyone, but the trick here is knowing what your applications are before you buy your scope and make your decision accordingly.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399. </div></div>
For $905.00 you can get a Sightron 8-32, for $870.00 you can get a Sightron 6-14. And get a better selection of reticles.
You can get a Millett 4-16 for $300.00
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can buy this scope in the $850 range new </div></div>
I'm sure you can, but that still does not make it a good buy.
And the MSRP is still $1399. </div></div>
For $905.00 you can get a Sightron 8-32, for $870.00 you can get a Sightron 6-14. And get a better selection of reticles.
You can get a Millett 4-16 for $300.00
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
I don't think there is a black/white answer to the question of how much magnification you need. This is one of those questions that is best answered by how much, or what range, of magnification you as an individual feel comfortable with. At the end of the day that's all that really matters. Some feel comfortable with fixed power, some feel comfortable with zoom, then there is usually some trade off in size and weight that correspond to the magnification and/or zoom a scope provides. Best to do lots of reading of reviews, and scope specs, then try a few or at least look at some before you commit your money to a particular model. Just my .02cents worth...
I don't think there is a black/white answer to the question of how much magnification you need. This is one of those questions that is best answered by how much, or what range, of magnification you as an individual feel comfortable with. At the end of the day that's all that really matters. Some feel comfortable with fixed power, some feel comfortable with zoom, then there is usually some trade off in size and weight that correspond to the magnification and/or zoom a scope provides. Best to do lots of reading of reviews, and scope specs, then try a few or at least look at some before you commit your money to a particular model. Just my .02cents worth...
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
WRT mirage, I can offer these two examples:
Shooting with 3-9 Tasco in May of this year, on a sunny, relatively humid day in Bridgeville DE, I had mirage out on a 200 yard range.
Last November, shooting at 1250 yards in NM, on a chilly, dry day with a 5.5-22 NF scope there was absolutely no mirage...
so mirage is certainly affected by the location where you will be primarily shooting the gun, not just the range!!
My $.02
WRT mirage, I can offer these two examples:
Shooting with 3-9 Tasco in May of this year, on a sunny, relatively humid day in Bridgeville DE, I had mirage out on a 200 yard range.
Last November, shooting at 1250 yards in NM, on a chilly, dry day with a 5.5-22 NF scope there was absolutely no mirage...
so mirage is certainly affected by the location where you will be primarily shooting the gun, not just the range!!
My $.02
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shredder58</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think there is a black/white answer to the question of how much magnification you need. This is one of those questions that is best answered by how much, or what range, of magnification you as an individual feel comfortable with. At the end of the day that's all that really matters. Some feel comfortable with fixed power, some feel comfortable with zoom, then there is usually some trade off in size and weight that correspond to the magnification and/or zoom a scope provides. Best to do lots of reading of reviews, and scope specs, then try a few or at least look at some before you commit your money to a particular model. Just my .02cents worth... </div></div>
Exactly! The right tool for the right job. Know your job first before buying the tool.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shredder58</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think there is a black/white answer to the question of how much magnification you need. This is one of those questions that is best answered by how much, or what range, of magnification you as an individual feel comfortable with. At the end of the day that's all that really matters. Some feel comfortable with fixed power, some feel comfortable with zoom, then there is usually some trade off in size and weight that correspond to the magnification and/or zoom a scope provides. Best to do lots of reading of reviews, and scope specs, then try a few or at least look at some before you commit your money to a particular model. Just my .02cents worth...
Exactly! The right tool for the right job. Know your job first before buying the tool.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Just got the weaver 3-15 x50 mil mil ilmntd mdr sight and its the shit the glass is wow! best bang for buck just can't wait to put it on my some lr 308l take my advice don't over look this thing
Just got the weaver 3-15 x50 mil mil ilmntd mdr sight and its the shit the glass is wow! best bang for buck just can't wait to put it on my some lr 308l take my advice don't over look this thing
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
Well, IMHO is that x25 is enough to every possible distance up to 2 clicks. x22 MLR reticle works really well. Mil-Dot is not so accurate when it comes to estimate long distances. Into 100-1000 metres x10-x16 is ok, but if shooter has - for example - magnification x22 or x25, it is easier to idenficate target & etc.
Well, IMHO is that x25 is enough to every possible distance up to 2 clicks. x22 MLR reticle works really well. Mil-Dot is not so accurate when it comes to estimate long distances. Into 100-1000 metres x10-x16 is ok, but if shooter has - for example - magnification x22 or x25, it is easier to idenficate target & etc.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
As I said in another post, I think that glass clarity can be more important than magnification. I found this out after buying my latest premier 15x.
As I said in another post, I think that glass clarity can be more important than magnification. I found this out after buying my latest premier 15x.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
good glass >> higher magnification.
i have seen crappy 20x scopes with spherical aberations, chromatic aberations, etc. i'd rather have a (second hand?) 12x swaro, zeiss, s&b then higher magnification that only provides a blurry picture.
good glass >> higher magnification.
i have seen crappy 20x scopes with spherical aberations, chromatic aberations, etc. i'd rather have a (second hand?) 12x swaro, zeiss, s&b then higher magnification that only provides a blurry picture.
Re: How much magnification do you really need?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threetrees</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i'd rather have a (second hand?) 12x swaro, zeiss, s&b then higher magnification that only provides a blurry picture.</div></div>
I'd rather have a 25x S&B
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threetrees</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i'd rather have a (second hand?) 12x swaro, zeiss, s&b then higher magnification that only provides a blurry picture.</div></div>
I'd rather have a 25x S&B
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