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Gunsmithing How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

T

tofst4u2no

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2011
187
0
Davenport, FL
Had a small gap at the front of my base when tightening the rear screws so I went ahead and bedded it. It looks like the gap was around 0.024" My base is 5.44" long and has 20moa of cant.

After doing the math it looks like I'm left with only around 5moa of cant. Guess I'm just looking for someone to verify if I'm doing the math right.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

I think changing a 20moa base to a 5moa base would take a lot of bedding compound...
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Try tightening the front screws and bedding the rear. Use a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">good</span></span> straight edge to make sure the base is not bowed.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tofst4u2no</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like the gap was around 0.024"</div></div>

How did you measure the gap, exactly? That seems like an awfully large gap for a quality base and any sort of decent receiver.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

If your measurements are right, your math is right - you would hav lost 15.2 MOA of cant with the numbers published. I had same thought as above- remove bedding you have, tighten the front, work on the back.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

My vote is yes. The odds are you did. But it wont matter if it wasnt much.

It's VERY easy to change CANT angle, and yes(Edited:I believe) you did. Ive seen it happen drastically.


You cant just do the "diving board" test like that.
Too many things not taken into consideration and checked with doing just that method.

You need to check the rail with a straight edge. A REAL straight edge. Not a $20 ruler.

Theres a lot more to bedding a rail than people think about.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

the problem is you don't know if the front ring was low, the rear ring was high or the rear ring had an upward tilt to it causing the gap under the front of the base. the base could also have a bend/twist to it. if you bedded it to correct for a high rear/low front but they were level, you are probably still left with a 20moa base. if the rear ring of the receiver was pointing in an upward direction and you bedded it that way, then sure, you lost some of your taper to the base.

to blindly say that he lost the cant to his base because he bedded the front is ignorant. he very possibly could have but there is too much unknown without actually measuring it.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

It changed. Either loss or gain in cant MOA. Maybe not 15 minutes, but it changed. Not ignorant to say that.

Happens all the time. Doesnt mean its a bad thing that cant angle changed. Just go sight in and see.

...as long as the rail is straight
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It changed. Either loss or gain in cant MOA. Maybe not 15 minutes, but it changed. Not ignorant to say that.

Happens all the time </div></div>

and how exactly do you know from his post that the front and rear ring weren't parallel and the rear ring (or the bottom of the rear of the base) wasn't just .024" higher than it was <span style="font-style: italic">supposed</span> to be? if they were parallel, he didn't gain or loose any cant.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Because most of the times Ive seen it done it changed.

That diving board test isnt the end all to "fixing" a rail.

Hell the thing could be bent right now.

A few thou difference, and cant angle changed.

Now do you think its more likely its perfect, or that Remingtons bridge and ring arent parallel and/or the rail isnt straight?
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

Now do you think its more likely its perfect, or that Remingtons bridge and ring arent parallel and/or the rail isnt straight?
</div></div>

i don't know. you don't know. neither one of us has seen or measured the receiver.

what i do know is he has 20moa more cant in his base than he would have if he mounted a flat base the same way.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

You're right.

My educated guess is that it changed.

Only takes a couple thou difference to change cant angle. A couple thou is probably tighter than Remingtons accepted tolerance for ANY part on their receivers.

Like I stated above, it doesnt hurt a damn thing as long as your rail is straight and cant angle didnt change too much.


I saw a rail bedded just like he said except in the rear and the guy couldnt even sight the rifle in.
The diving board test does not work.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're right.

My educated guess is that it changed.

Only takes a couple thou difference to change cant angle. A couple thou is probably tighter than Remingtons accepted tolerance for ANY part on their receivers.

Like I stated above, it doesnt hurt a damn thing as long as your rail is straight and cant angle didnt change too much.


I saw a rail bedded just like he said except in the rear and the guy couldnt even sight the rifle in. </div></div>


my self education learned me to not make bold statements like "yes it did" without knowing all the facts.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Wow I wasn't expecting to stir up so much just asking a simple question. I did use a straight edge on the base when I got it and did not see any warping at all. I'm assuming that it's the receiver that is not perfect. Here's a pic and you can see how much bedding it took. There's right between 23 and 24 thousandths of bedding there.

IMG_0002-1.jpg
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Not stirring anything up, me and 300 just argue a lot.


If your rail is straight don't worry about it, just go sight it in.

My assumption is that cant angle changed, but not much, and it doesn't matter anyways.
Hell even if it changed to 0 cant, no big deal if you're zeroing at 100.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tofst4u2no</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow I wasn't expecting to stir up so much just asking a simple question. I did use a straight edge on the base when I got it and did not see any warping at all. I'm assuming that it's the receiver that is not perfect. Here's a pic and you can see how much bedding it took. There's right between 23 and 24 thousandths of bedding there. </div></div>

there is not enough information to say if you lost any cant or not. you need to know what is off and by how much. is it off because one of the bridges are ground at an angle or were they ground parallel but the rear just higher than <span style="font-style: italic">normal</span>. what about the base? was it machined perfect?
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

0.023" over about 6" is 13 moa.
So, if the rear of the receiver was off and you only bed the front, you lose about that much.

I think what other guys mean to say is that if you bed both ends of the rail, lightly touch the screws down while the bedding cures and then clean up the holes and screws and torque it all properly, then you are not losing any of the cant in the rail.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">0.023" over about 6" is 13 moa.
So, if the rear of the receiver was off and you only bed the front, you lose about that much.

I think what other guys mean to say is that if you bed both ends of the rail, lightly touch the screws down while the bedding cures and then clean up the holes and screws and torque it all properly, then you are not losing any of the cant in the rail. </div></div>

that doesn't work if the rear was simply .024" high and not machined at a taper pointing the front up. there is simply not enough information to say if he lost or gained any cant.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

None of this even matters until you zero it at 100 yards, and determine where your zero is compared to the mechanical zero of the scope... this still won't tell you anything about how much cant bedding the base changed, like Robert says above, the condition of your action and the base will both contribute to that, also, the base may now be bedded in a perfect 20 moa relation to the centerline of your action, but that won't tell you if there is any runout in the bore.... too many variables to tell what your bedding actually did to the relationship between your base and the centerline of the action.

Basically, if your front ring is somehow .024" lower than it should be, then bedding it would have just leveled the base to 20 moa... if the rear base is too low, and then you bedded the front, you might have gone from what would have been 5 moa to what could now be -15 MOA. If the base is off somehow in the machining process (not able to tell just with a straight edge, would need measurements) then it could also affect things like the receiver example above...

hope that helps to clear up what was being said
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

When you zero the rifle, it is entirely possible it will 'appear' that what Keith said was absolutely correct, but at the same time it could be absolutely wrong. My guess is that after you shoot it and find out it will work for your needs, your curiosity will fade, and no one will ever know
laugh.gif
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> is it off because one of the bridges are ground at an angle or were they ground parallel but the rear just higher than <span style="font-style: italic">normal</span>. what about the base? was it machined perfect? </div></div>

Ground?

I heard they were belt sanded by hand before blasting and finishing...

I didn't really believe it but,

They sure as hell aren't precision ground. So ground by hand maybe?

Wish I could tour Remington and see how they do it
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ground?

I heard they were belt sanded by hand before blasting and finishing...

I didn't really believe it but,

They sure as hell aren't precision ground. So ground by hand maybe?

Wish I could tour Remington and see how they do it </div></div>

machined, belt ground, belt sanded, chiseled out by an 8 year old afghani, it doesn't change the fact that without having the receiver in hand, we have absolutely no idea where the issue originates. we can not say for sure if he lost, gained or had a neutral affect on the cant of the base.

i understand with your many years experience working with these receivers, you may be able state as fact that the rear ring is pointing up simply by the op's post. i can't do that yet. i'd personally rather measure/compare a few things before i make that kind of claim.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

It's a Remington 5R Milspec. Manufactured in 2004 according to the serial number.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

K.

Ive heard, that actions made prior to a certain year had a different height bridge or ring(I think it was bridge height). I dont remember the year either but it was like 20 or more years ago I think.
Edited: I think it would have to be the Bridge that changed, cause if the ring changed size it would change the action diameter.

This means that any well made base now-a-days will need to be bedded on actions prior to that date.

I don't know if its true... There's a lot of rumors out there about Remy actions.

Can anyone who KNOWS for sure comment on that? Im surprised there aren't former Remington employees on here that can shed some light on the questions people wonder about their manufacturing techniques.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

OP, mind if I ask what scope you're using and if the turrets are Zero'd?

Some companies, like USO I read, set turret zero from factory to take into account a 20MOA base. Don't remember where I read that though.

Everytime I sight a rifle in it interests me as to where the scope is pointing in relation to the bore. Says a lot about the rifle, and the scope.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Looks like you did change the cant..... I wouldnt have expected that
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Like 300 said there's no way to KNOW for sure... if you really want to get technical.
IF there was a way to find out, Id bet its not 20MOA anymore.



But this whole debate is laughable because all a 20MOA base means to you is that the base has about 20MOA of cant in it.

Does not mean the rifle will hit 20MOA high at 100.

You have barrel runout, an untrue receiver face/untrue scope base holes, and the receiver ring and bridge which can be off in any way you can think of.




PS, OP Im not saying your question was laughable, just me and 300 arguing about it.
You have a good question and I wish we knew more about Remington's manufacturing process.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Only .024" off. Try .080" off. Here is one of Ken Farrell's finest. This was supposed to be a 20 MOA rail. A Weatherby Mark 5 action is .126" offset with the rear bridge lower. This one would have yeilded a huge slope the wrong way. The instructions said this is normal and to just bed it. I bedded it back into a priority mail box and sent it back. They said nothing was wrong with it and shorted my refund by a 10% restocking fee.

img3160d.jpg


img3158bj.jpg

 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

o wow...that is absolutely the craziest thing i have ever seen...man...did you send them a picture of it...that cant be normal...
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ron19</div><div class="ubbcode-body">o wow...that is absolutely the craziest thing i have ever seen...man...did you send them a picture of it...that cant be normal...
</div></div>

No shit right!?!? LOL! That's fuckin nuts. If they told me to bed it I would've shipped it back too and done a chargeback on my credit card if they hit me with restocking fees!
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Yes on the pictures. They got the same ones and a few more. After 3 weeks I called them and the guy gets on the phone got pissy with me and told me I ordered the wrong ones and these were machined right. I ordered them from them over the phone. They picked them out. I had to send in my dealer info at the same time. He tried to charge me more for replacements and I refused that. Then he said they would eat the charge if I paid them another $12 for frieght back to me. Not happening. Then it took them another week and a half to short my refund. I am done with Ken Farrell.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

What company?
Edited. I see.


Bummer. Sorry to hear that.


Its not the action though? Other bases fit it fine with no problem like that? I dont know much about Weatherbys quality control.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Hi Keith,
I was trying to save a buck with the Farrell stuff. In the past I have only used Near rails on Mark 5's and they all fit perfect. They lay dead tight full length and when torqued down the straight edge passes no light. I have found Weatherby actions to be money. They are far and away my favorite action to build on. I was turned on to them by Krieger. They did some work for Weatherby and they said they were extremely true right out of the box. I have found the same. When I use my prefered mounting systems scopes are so far always withing 2 moa of optical center and elevation is either straight or 20 moa down from center just like advertised when using a 20 moa Near rail.

The wifes tail of trying to get all 9 lugs to show solid contact is a non issue. The newer rifles with Criterion barrels respond favorably to simple accuracy treatments. Float the barrel, bed the action focusing on solid support under the recoil lug, adjust the trigger and use quality scope mounts and 1/2 moa like no body's business. Easy money.

Even my new little XXII 17 HMR is a .750" MOA gun at 100 yards aggregate for 20 5 shot groups. Some of those 5 shot groups were .250 and the very worst was 1.1" I did have to bed it to get it to do this. The wood didn't fit right at all but was an easy fix.

This is my Weatherby QC report for today.
 
Re: How much of my 20moa base did I lose bedding it

Kool. well like I said sorry to hear that. I cant imagine <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> taking care of an unsatisfied customer, no matter what. Especially in your case where all they had to do is send you a new rail or give you <span style="font-weight: bold">all</span> your money back.

They cared more about making $10 off ya I guess.
 
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