How much PRS comp innovations make their way into the military
- Thread starter deersniper
- Start date
Competition from bench rest to Idpa/3 gun to PRS and ELR has driven most of the innovation for mil shooting IMO
I'm pretty sure the MIL ( especially Spec Ops ) had "shoot houses" long before any "3-gun" competitions were widely happening. Plenty of "stress tests" happen for certain occupations or specialities. People retire from the MIL and want to make $$$$.
If anything MIL training seeks out "specialized" individuals for structured courses, hence it drips down to LEO, then to general public. Sometimes it is "street clothes guys" with cover stories in civilian classes. Doesn't mean the MIL is learning from civilians, it's just cheaper than developing a MIL course that gets too many people into a God complex inside a PMs office.
If anything MIL training seeks out "specialized" individuals for structured courses, hence it drips down to LEO, then to general public. Sometimes it is "street clothes guys" with cover stories in civilian classes. Doesn't mean the MIL is learning from civilians, it's just cheaper than developing a MIL course that gets too many people into a God complex inside a PMs office.
Hi,
Mil and LE guys were using tripods long before PRS was even a thing.
Teams had DLCW tripods with picatinny locking heads before anyone knew what PRS even was.
LE guys had tripods like SpecRest long long ago too.
PRS guys did change the way tripods are utilized in various ways and fashions though.
ELR......Well the Army had ELR/HTI units back before the civilian world ever heard of Coriolis effect, etc
Just look at the backlash that was in the ELR world when it was released the BC of the original 419gr 408 projectile actually increased at the 750m distance range....Civilian side argued over and over even when shown the Yuma Proving grounds radar data, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
Mil and LE guys were using tripods long before PRS was even a thing.
Teams had DLCW tripods with picatinny locking heads before anyone knew what PRS even was.
LE guys had tripods like SpecRest long long ago too.
PRS guys did change the way tripods are utilized in various ways and fashions though.
ELR......Well the Army had ELR/HTI units back before the civilian world ever heard of Coriolis effect, etc
Just look at the backlash that was in the ELR world when it was released the BC of the original 419gr 408 projectile actually increased at the 750m distance range....Civilian side argued over and over even when shown the Yuma Proving grounds radar data, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better
Master Sgt. Scott Satterlee says the military could learn a lot from civilians
Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better
Master Sgt. Scott Satterlee says the military could learn a lot from civiliansmedium.com
Somewhat of an article that poses good points, yet falls short in so many others. Comparing a soldier on the battle field engaging the enemy to shooting competitions is almost an insult.
Hi,
Biggest thing that gets blurred IMO in regards to comp vs mil/le......
There is a difference between "Tactics" and "Technique"; overlapping or attempting to overlap without proper context could be deadly.
IMO as long as keep those 2 goals on their own podium then yes absolutely mil/le guys can learn from comps and vice versa.
But learning something is not really the same as creating innovations; especially in regards to equipment.
Sincerely,
Theis
Biggest thing that gets blurred IMO in regards to comp vs mil/le......
There is a difference between "Tactics" and "Technique"; overlapping or attempting to overlap without proper context could be deadly.
IMO as long as keep those 2 goals on their own podium then yes absolutely mil/le guys can learn from comps and vice versa.
But learning something is not really the same as creating innovations; especially in regards to equipment.
Sincerely,
Theis
Ballistics work different depending on the target?
Bullet doesn’t know where it’s heading, only real difference I’d imagine is being able to carry/pack it a ways and being able to take more abuse
Oh Lordy
You didn’t, I did
Do you need me to break down my clear and simple response for you? Really?
Yeah that’s it
At least I was right...you are an idiot admitting it. Good to know.
Do you always repeat what your mom says to you??? Odd....but not unexpected at this point.
I’m actually interested in the original topic, if you two could take your disagreement elsewhere?
On topic, I know I’ve listened to a MDS podcast wherein Caylen stated that tripod use, while technically not new in MIL, was (at least in his era) significantly underutilized. He gives an example of getting pretty creative with bipod loading to avoid “hard on hard contact,” and a more recently active duty guest they had on in another ‘cast mentioned that he feels rifle balance is much more important than is commonly believed.
Caylen also stated he’d mandate that all of his guys carry a pint-sized GC with Git-Lite because it weighs so little and is so versatile, to @Yankee88’s point.
On topic, I know I’ve listened to a MDS podcast wherein Caylen stated that tripod use, while technically not new in MIL, was (at least in his era) significantly underutilized. He gives an example of getting pretty creative with bipod loading to avoid “hard on hard contact,” and a more recently active duty guest they had on in another ‘cast mentioned that he feels rifle balance is much more important than is commonly believed.
Caylen also stated he’d mandate that all of his guys carry a pint-sized GC with Git-Lite because it weighs so little and is so versatile, to @Yankee88’s point.
Not too sure about PRS, but 3 Gun has influenced the MIL unfortunately.
No, like the use of offset Reflex sights and lightweight rails.
And the MIL started the 1-4 Scope thing..... 3 gun got it from the MIL. The Short Dot was is SOF way before 3 gun.
As a matter of fact 3 gun started the use of cheap LPVOs. So they have that.
Whats wrong with light parts and offset dots? Genuinely curious.
And you should spend some time talking to the people who worked at optics companies during the LPVO explosion. The Short Dot and other big game type scopes were in limited use way back, and they were terrible and fragile according to these scope companies. And the people that used them apparently got so much push back that optics companies didn't feel like developing them. It wasn't until shooting sports made them mainstream that companies felt there was enough momentum to make them with all the ruggedness and reticle options we have now.
Those aren't my words, that's what anyone that works at Vortex will tell you.
You give up something to gain something.....
Make it light and you give up on strength. I have seen way yoo many light rails flex inder simple arm strength. Doesn't mean anything for hobby shooters. If you have an IR laser it is completely unacceptable. The light rails also don't lock up as secure and shift with impacts on the rifle. That too shifts everything on the rail.
FYI .... I used a Short Dot for many years way back when. So I am not sure who you were speaking with, because nothing came close to it for a very long time. That is durability and function. Back in 2003, even 2010, there were not any other valid options other then the S&B.
Are there better options now? Yes there are. I will take a Gen 3 Razor over the 1-8 Short dot every day. The Gen 2 1-6 Razor was good when It came out. The biggest issue was the retical but they fixed that, and that wasn't until way after 2013....... so for 10 plus years they had nothing......
I think we're kinda saying the same thing. All I'm adding is that the people in charge of making all those better options have personally told me that the impetus came from sport shooting, because the military wasn't putting any faith or interest in them.
I can see that , as the Gen 1 products were not even close to what we needed in the MIL. So after that there was not very much interest in anything coming out.
The whole game changes when you have to strap all the shit to your body, patrol with it and then maneuver under fire. I still know a few group guys, never seen a game changer hanging off their packs or a pillow bag in the war pig. Shit, I don’t even see bipods most of the time.
IMO PRS, etc came from the fact the civilians were excluded from the military and police sniper matches. I hadn’t paid much attention to this before 2001 but there were several years that any time the best sniper comp was over and results posted there was 3 months of butt hurt threads about not being able to attend.
PRS is a game, basically devoid of real work tactics and that’s fine. (More than fine, not everyone needs to know current or even older tactics). It’s successful because it’s fun and guys can stand around for 45 minutes, then walk 20 steps and pack themselves into position with strap on bags and balance a 19# 6BR with a wind call their teammate just got by throwing their match so the other guys on his team have wind dope. Don’t get me wrong, you can induce stress and I’m not implying it’s easy but it’s not a fair comparison. If anything, IMO, the military adopting gaming equipment just made everything heavier. Exactly what a guy doesn’t need when he’s wearing 65# of shit anyway, a 17# 308win.
I’m not wearing the uniform anymore and never was a DMR or a sniper. I was out long before PRS was a thing but I never saw any of that shit I see PRS guys sporting. If anything, a .mil guy shooting PRS, or Highpower, or small bore or 3 gun, etc. is a good way to get some stress relief and have some fun with the trigger time. If I had a wish for any gaming experience to transfer over, it’s that.
Edit: I am starting to see higher red dot risers.
IMO PRS, etc came from the fact the civilians were excluded from the military and police sniper matches. I hadn’t paid much attention to this before 2001 but there were several years that any time the best sniper comp was over and results posted there was 3 months of butt hurt threads about not being able to attend.
PRS is a game, basically devoid of real work tactics and that’s fine. (More than fine, not everyone needs to know current or even older tactics). It’s successful because it’s fun and guys can stand around for 45 minutes, then walk 20 steps and pack themselves into position with strap on bags and balance a 19# 6BR with a wind call their teammate just got by throwing their match so the other guys on his team have wind dope. Don’t get me wrong, you can induce stress and I’m not implying it’s easy but it’s not a fair comparison. If anything, IMO, the military adopting gaming equipment just made everything heavier. Exactly what a guy doesn’t need when he’s wearing 65# of shit anyway, a 17# 308win.
I’m not wearing the uniform anymore and never was a DMR or a sniper. I was out long before PRS was a thing but I never saw any of that shit I see PRS guys sporting. If anything, a .mil guy shooting PRS, or Highpower, or small bore or 3 gun, etc. is a good way to get some stress relief and have some fun with the trigger time. If I had a wish for any gaming experience to transfer over, it’s that.
Edit: I am starting to see higher red dot risers.
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