Gunsmithing How Rem Could Screw this Throat up this Badly?

[Baron23]

Hi guys - the rifle is a Rem 700 5R Gen 2 SS in .308 Win (love those succinct and brief names, eh? LOL). I bought this rifle new 5 years ago so not immediately before Rem was broken up. But this is certainly well into the period where the private equity guys fucked that company over royally and was turning out subpar products. It shoots ok for a deer at 200 yards and in but its not a tack driver by any means. Rifle has 1,200 rounds thru it.

I didn't have a bore scope at the time it was new and then after I did have a scope (mostly to check for state of cleaning on my precision rifles) I never looked into this barrel until recently. And when I did I was shocked to see that about 35-40% of the throat...and a bit beyond...seems to be missing. This is not throat erosion from shooting....the other half of the throat is right with the lands of the lead coming up to the free bore as you would expect. Its just gouged out.

Questions to the experts:

1. I'm mostly just wondering how they could have fucked this up this way? if the throat reamer was off center or cocked relative to the bore, then it would have eaten the throat all the way around as the barrel was spun in the lathe. Is this right?

2. Can the barrel be set back just a small bit and have the chamber extended again and the throat re-cut?

And ideas?

Thanks for looking.

 

[chevy_man]

If it shoots ok, live with it

If it's not up to your standards re-barrel it.

 

[Baron23]

If it shoots ok, live with it

If it's not up to your standards re-barrel it.

Well, yes...I'm fairly intelligent and those two options did occur to me. And, I think I mentioned them in my post.

I guess my question wasn't made clear enough. I'm wondering how they could have done this as if the reamer was off center or cocked it should have torn up the throat all the way around and not 35-40%.

I'll try to edit my post to my interest more explicit.

Cheers

 

[WindstormSCR]

the only thing that comes to mind is a worn or broken tool, but you’d think that would have been noticed and the part rejected

 

[B y r o n]

I'd say you need better pictures because it is hard to tell from what you have posted. What borescope did you use?

 

[6.5SH]

Take the mirror off and try to get a picture of the area from both directions.

 

[6.5SH]

Also the .30 Cal sized mirror will show more at once.



for those who can't see the amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085XXZQK2/

 

[Baron23]

I'd say you need better pictures because it is hard to tell from what you have posted. What borescope did you use?

Teslong. I have to say having the rifle in the vise, trying to hold the scope in the proper place, and hit the photo button on the scope seemed to require a 3rd arm! haha

Take the mirror off and try to get a picture of the area from both directions.

I'll do that...

Also the .30 Cal sized mirror will show more at once.



for those who can't see the amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085XXZQK2/

I actually just received a set of the caliber specific mirrors from Teslong (well, Amazon) but it was after I took these. I'll def get some better pics.

I think the 2nd of the three pics I posted show it best. The top of the pic is the chamber end...and it shows the free bore...and zippo leade.

Thanks for the responses guys...I'll post some better pics...well, I hope to get some better pics! haha

Cheers

 

[chevy_man]

Well, yes...I'm fairly intelligent and those two options did occur to me. And, I think I mentioned them in my post.

I guess my question wasn't made clear enough. I'm wondering how they could have done this as if the reamer was off center or cocked it should have torn up the throat all the way around and not 35-40%.

I'll try to edit my post to my interest more explicit.

Cheers

You missed the part where none of that matters.

There's 2 reasons for a borescope:

1: You're a gunsmith and you want to check your work for obvious defects.

2: You want to check your gun for an obvious defect because it doesn't shoot well.


You can look for a cause and cuss the employee that screwed it up all day. None of that actually matters. Doesn't matter how they did it, when they did it, only that it happened at all. Unless you're the smith chasing down why you ruined a barrel you're not getting anything out of it.


The only thing that matters at the end of the day, is can you live with how it shoots?

 

[iceng]

That throat was not (in 95% of cases) cut by an off centre reamer.

The pilot, be it fixed or live, was waaay undersize. Thats what causes the throat to be hugely off centre like you showed.

If it shoots, let it ride. If it annoys you, pull it and a 'smith can correct it. Best results are a new tube.

Pick your poison.

 

[powdahound76]

@Baron23

Yes, you could likely set it back.

Issue is, most smiths charge a full chamber fee as its all the work of chambering a blank.

For me, and Im by no means wealthy, I would just get a blank and do a whole new barrel if incurring a full chambering cost.

I know Padom tested some barrel blanks, Wilson I believe, and they were really great shooters.
Much cheaper than premo blanks and an option to save some $.
Looked more than good enough for some deer hunting.

If it were me, I would re-barrel.
Stinks, usually those Rem 5r rifles are hammers

 

[E. Bryant]

the only thing that comes to mind is a worn or broken tool, but you’d think that would have been noticed and the part rejected

There's all kinds of things that came out of Remington that you'd think that would have been noticed and rejected, but we've got enough history now to know that they were not able to inspect quality into their product.

 

[KYAggie]

This might be a long shot, but you could rent a throater from 4D for $30 and see if you can clean it up yourself; after all what could it hurt? It might actually improve your accuracy.

30 Caliber Throater (.308") - 4D Reamer Rentals

308 Throater reamer rental fee $28 with $130 refundable deposit when returned in the same condition it was shipped out at.

4drentals.com

 

[Baron23]

That throat was not (in 95% of cases) cut by an off centre reamer.

The pilot, be it fixed or live, was waaay undersize. Thats what causes the throat to be hugely off centre like you showed.

If it shoots, let it ride. If it annoys you, pull it and a 'smith can correct it. Best results are a new tube.

Pick your poison.

Thanks....but, help out a total ignoramus on gunsmiths. When they cut a chamber, its the barrel blank that rotates while the reamer is fixed in place, right? So, undersized pilot, off-center reamer, cocked reamer/barrel....as the blank spins would not any of these errors result in chewing up the leade all the way around? As I said, some lands make it to the free bore but it looks like about 35-40% of the throat is chewed out. ???

@Baron23

Yes, you could likely set it back.

Issue is, most smiths charge a full chamber fee as its all the work of chambering a blank.

For me, and Im by no means wealthy, I would just get a blank and do a whole new barrel if incurring a full chambering cost.

I know Padom tested some barrel blanks, Wilson I believe, and they were really great shooters.
Much cheaper than premo blanks and an option to save some $.
Looked more than good enough for some deer hunting.

If it were me, I would re-barrel.
Stinks, usually those Rem 5r rifles are hammers

Thank you. I will see a reasonably local outfit....W.A.R. Rifles...and see what if they are willing to look at it and price out fixing it (if its fixable). And, see if they have any blanks in stock. If I really want to, I'm sure I can find a 5R Sendero blank...but not sure when and certainly not sure putting $800 of new barrel (or more) on an $1,100 rifle makes complete sense. I need to think about that a bit as I have another project in the works and I too am not wealthy! haha

This might be a long shot, but you could rent a throater from 4D for $30 and see if you can clean it up yourself; after all what could it hurt? It might actually improve your accuracy.

30 Caliber Throater (.308") - 4D Reamer Rentals

308 Throater reamer rental fee $28 with $130 refundable deposit when returned in the same condition it was shipped out at.

4drentals.com

Oh no....you have no idea what kind of damage I can do with hand tools...on anything. I'm just not that DIY kind of guy. haha

All - I was asked for better pics, with and without mirror (and pics without from both ends) on the scope, and I did recently receive the 30 cal mirror from Teslong. I will get those done later today and post.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[powdahound76]

Here is what a 700 will do with a good aftermarket barrel.
From a used BA I snagged in the PX for the price you would spend to rebarrel with a Bartlein (which this has).

First group after getting scope close.
FGMM 175s
5 shots.
.671” edge to edge.

 

[Shoots 700's]

People post these and seem surprised. Been known for some time Remington quality has sucked

 

[KYAggie]

Oh no....you have no idea what kind of damage I can do with hand tools...on anything. I'm just not that DIY kind of guy. haha

Well, anyway your go, it’s going to cost you then. If you were a “do it yourself kind of guy“, you could also call up Northland Shooters Supply and get a Criterion remage barrel for about $350 and not have to spend $800 on a new barrel.

 

[Baron23]

People post these and seem surprised. Been known for some time Remington quality has sucked

Not really shocked that Rem quality suffered under the ownership (rape really) of Rem by the private equity parasites.

I was kind of surprised at how bad this is and mostly just wondered how they managed to do it.

 

[chevy_man]

Thanks....but, help out a total ignoramus on gunsmiths. When they cut a chamber, its the barrel blank that rotates while the reamer is fixed in place, right? So, undersized pilot, off-center reamer, cocked reamer/barrel....as the blank spins would not any of these errors result in chewing up the leade all the way around? As I said, some lands make it to the free bore but it looks like about 35-40% of the throat is chewed out. ???



Thank you. I will see a reasonably local outfit....W.A.R. Rifles...and see what if they are willing to look at it and price out fixing it (if its fixable). And, see if they have any blanks in stock. If I really want to, I'm sure I can find a 5R Sendero blank...but not sure when and certainly not sure putting $800 of new barrel (or more) on an $1,100 rifle makes complete sense. I need to think about that a bit as I have another project in the works and I too am not wealthy! haha


Oh no....you have no idea what kind of damage I can do with hand tools...on anything. I'm just not that DIY kind of guy. haha

All - I was asked for better pics, with and without mirror (and pics without from both ends) on the scope, and I did recently receive the 30 cal mirror from Teslong. I will get those done later today and post.

Thanks for the replies.

Reamer wasn't on the same centerline as the bore. It's a production rifle with a crappy production barrel. Why would you expect an $800 barrel on a $1100 rifle?


This is exactly why gunsmiths hate customers with bore scopes. You want to look at stuff. The only measure of which is how it shoots.

It doesn't matter what it looks like. Your pictures won't change how it shoots.


Nothing anyone here tells you about the pictures will change how it shoots.


If it's not good enough put a new barrel on. Paying a smith for $400 in barrel work on a crappy barrel is dumb when a new blank is $2-400 depending. (I have $400 remage prefits that shoot better than any factory REM barrel. Remington sometimes let good barrels out the door in spite of their QC. They're the exception more than the norm).

 

[Baron23]

Why would you expect an $800 barrel on a $1100 rifle?

And why did you think I did? I don't remember making any such statement or even similar.

As for bore scopes...I don't care what any one hates or not. The "throw the bore scope in the trash" frequent refrain is just stupid. May as well just tell people to put their head in the sand.

I have used it to look at the chamber job on a new barrel and mostly to evaluate my cleaning. It serves those purposes well.

And, I did not whine about how Rem screwed me, I did not go on a hissy fit about what I saw in the bore scope, nothing like that at all. I just asked some simple questions. One out of curiosity (how did they manage this) and one on the possibility of setting it back....without saying that I'm sold on setting it back. It was just a question.

If it shot bug holes then I would have only asked how they managed this and not anything about setting back.

Have a blessed day.

Cheers

 

[chevy_man]

And why did you think I did? I don't remember making any such statement or even similar.

As for bore scopes...I don't care what any one hates or not. The "throw the bore scope in the trash" frequent refrain is just stupid. May as well just tell people to put their head in the sand.

I have used it to look at the chamber job on a new barrel and mostly to evaluate my cleaning. It serves those purposes well.

And, I did not whine about how Rem screwed me, I did not go on a hissy fit about what I saw in the bore scope, nothing like that at all. I just asked some simple questions. One out of curiosity (how did they manage this) and one on the possibility of setting it back....without saying that I'm sold on setting it back. It was just a question.

If it shot bug holes then I would have only asked how they managed this and not anything about setting back.

Have a blessed day.

Cheers

You expected a chamber job without flaw. From Remington. That would be finding a unicorn.

 

[Baron23]

You expected a chamber job without flaw. From Remington. That would be finding a unicorn.

hehehe...you're funny. I'm 71 and can be an "old salt" too...I'm just not as consistent at it as you.

And without flaw and being butchered are different things, my friend. And while I'm at it...again, I did not express any specific expectations for this chamber or really anything else. You will not find me doing that or comparing it to a custom barrel.

So...please stop. haha

Have great day.

 

[iceng]

In production, often reamers are spun, and barrels stay still. 99% of smiths spin barrels and hold the reamer steady.

The pilot on reamers is a close fit of thr lands to help centralise the tip as its going in. If not, it can grab one side and "lean" to one side with a bias, cutting off centre.

The "rigid reaming" method is said to eliminate thia because it reams where it was setup, HOWEVER, its its misaligned to the bore, it will stay misaligned (like production barrels) Floating holders self correct to some extent, which is why smiths use them.

 

[Baron23]

In production, often reamers are spun, and barrels stay still. 99% of smiths spin barrels and hold the reamer steady.

Thank you. This is very illuminating and something I did not know.

Thinking all chambering was done with a spinning barrel was the basis for my questioning how they could have done this.

Spinning reamer not properly aligned makes sense of it.

Appreciate your entire reply, though I only quoted a section.

 

[Sigma]

Here is what a 700 will do with a good aftermarket barrel.
From a used BA I snagged in the PX for the price you would spend to rebarrel with a Bartlein (which this has).

First group after getting scope close.
FGMM 175s
5 shots.
.671” edge to edge.

View attachment 8323719

my factory remington 700 223 with a shit looking barrel will shoot the same as that all day long.

OP, shoot the damn barrel and see what it does

 

[Baron23]

my factory remington 700 223 with a shit looking barrel will shoot the same as that all day long.

OP, shoot the damn barrel and see what it does

I have 1,200 rounds on this barrel. It’s been shot.

Thanks.

 

[Sigma]

I have 1,200 rounds on this barrel. It’s been shot.

Thanks.

time for a nice custom barrel then, I would have expected better from a 5r

 

[st1650]

Well, anyway your go, it’s going to cost you then. If you were a “do it yourself kind of guy“, you could also call up Northland Shooters Supply and get a Criterion remage barrel for about $350 and not have to spend $800 on a new barrel.

That’s what I would do

 

[iceng]

O

Thank you. This is very illuminating and something I did not know.

Thinking all chambering was done with a spinning barrel was the basis for my questioning how they could have done this.

Spinning reamer not properly aligned makes sense of it.

Appreciate your entire reply, though I only quoted a section.

Often 'smiths have multiple live pilots, to ensure they get the exact land size, so when the reamer goes in, its exactly centre.

If the drill which made the original hole was blunt, dull, or sharpened off centre, it will drill a slightly bigger hole, and thusly we use pilots to account for that variation.

If you put this in a barrel with 1200 rounds on it, it will be loose, so id try a few larger ones to make it a better fit.

Im in Australia, so dont ask me to do it for you !. Happy to answer your questions if you have more.

 

[iceng]

Lots and lots of spare sizes.

 

[Baron23]

@6.5SH @Byron - you guys asked for better pics...and 6.5SH asked for pics without the mirror and using the 30 cal Teslong mirror.

So, I have more rotten pics, shown below! haha I don't know how people get such good pictures...mine have never been very good. And, it probably wouldn't hurt if I cleaned the barrel nice and bright before taking these new pics. LOL

But, @iceng very nicely answered my main question which was how the hell did that they do that to the leade while reaming a spinning barrel. Answer, they didn't...production barrels are often reamed with a fixed barrel and spinning reamer. That's what I wanted to understand and I thank @iceng for the answer.

My other question wrt to can the barrel be set back just the length of the throat plus a little and have the chamber extended and a new throat cut. Answer seems to be yes, but probably not cost effective. And I do understand that spending more money on this barrel may be just putting lipstick on a pig and if I do anything about it, a new barrel prob makes the most sense. Or, just leave it as is as its good enough for whitetail to 200 yds.

I don't think these pics will illuminate much, but I said I'd take them and post it. If it warms up enough to spend some time in the garage where my benches are, I'll clean the barrel up good and see if I can get better pics just for my own peace of mind.

Pics without the mirror on
From chamber end

From muzzle end

With mirror on...this is the missing leade section...part of it. Chamber it toward upper left

Thanks guys.

Cheers

 

[whatsupdoc]

Either live with it or get a new barrel its that simple. It does not look as bad as you think it does.

 

[Baron23]

Either live with it or get a new barrel its that simple.

Ah, I thought I rather said the same thing...but thank you.

It does not look as bad as you think it does.

Really? @iceng seems to thing its "hugely off centre".

Thats what causes the throat to be hugely off centre like you showed.

And to me, it looks like they tore the fuck out of the leade...but, what do I know.

Best of luck to you.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Really? @iceng seems to thing its "hugely off centre".

No one can tell how far off center it is from those images.

seems to thing its "hugely off centre"

^^^^^^^^
Seems to does not = is.

 

[Baron23]

No one can tell how far off center it is from those images.

^^^^^^^^
Seems to does not = is.

The pics aren't that good (which I thought I went to some effort to acknowledge) but no matter how off center it was, it was enough off center to eliminate 35% or so of the leade. Just not really there.

Cheers

 

[hafejd30]

My ffl had a Rem 700 arrive that the bolt wouldn’t even fit in. Another had an order of 10 of the same rifles. 2 came without rifling in the barrels. So this really doesn’t look to shabby

Here’s a pic of my AI 308 barrel. Approximately 4,000 rounds. Couple chunks missing but she still hammers. Last time on target it held 1/4 moa for 6 shots at 100 yds

 

[Baron23]

My ffl had a Rem 700 arrive that the bolt wouldn’t even fit in. Another had an order of 10 of the same rifles. 2 came without rifling in the barrels. So this really doesn’t look to shabby

Here’s a pic of my AI 308 barrel. Approximately 4,000 rounds. Couple chunks missing but she still hammers. Last time on target it held 1/4 moa for 6 shots at 100 yds
View attachment 8325200View attachment 8325201

Looks really good to me.

And wow....zero rifling in two barrels. Wow, wow, wow.

 

[spife7980]

So what’re you going to rebarrel to?

 

[Baron23]

So what’re you going to rebarrel to?

I believe I want to keep it a .308 Win.

Why, my friend?

 

[hafejd30]

Looks really good to me.

And wow....zero rifling in two barrels. Wow, wow, wow.

That was years ago though. When Remington was going through the worst of their quality control during bankruptcy and what not. Was like SPS line or something. The cheaper end

 

[Im2bent]

What......you guys have never heard of a smooth bore?

 

[hafejd30]

I believe I want to keep it a .308 Win.

Why, my friend?

You said you have 1200 on it. You have shot it and know it’s not up to the accuracy you want.

That alone would be enough for me to replace it. Regardless of what the bore scope shows

 

[spife7980]

I believe I want to keep it a .308 Win.

Why, my friend?

Just trying to redirect the barrage of comments about stuff you’ve already said lol

 

[Baron23]

That was years ago though. When Remington was going through the worst of their quality control during bankruptcy and what not. Was like SPS line or something. The cheaper end

Well, this rifle is four years old so it also falls into that period when private equity owners raped it, loaded it with debt, and the quality sucked. But, it was a 5R SS Gen 2 which was supposed to be one of their nicer rifles.

You said you have 1200 on it. You have shot it and know it’s not up to the accuracy you want.

That alone would be enough for me to replace it. Regardless of what the bore scope shows

Yeah, it never shot really great but its not awful. Sometimes a bit under a MOA, sometimes a bit over a MOA, sometimes nice tight group and a way off flyer (which, maybe me) As I said above, its good enough to kill a deer at 200 yards.

I'm getting up there in age, I don't get to do much deer hunting, so....I'll probably just keep on shooting it.

Is what it is. I just really kind of wanted to know how they could fuck it up like that as I thought all chambering was done with a spinning barrel...and apparently I'm was wrong about that wrt to factory production rifles, per iceng who seems to know the subject well.

Cheers

 

[hafejd30]

Well, this rifle is four years old so it also falls into that period when private equity owners raped it, loaded it with debt, and the quality sucked. But, it was a 5R SS Gen 2 which was supposed to be one of their nicer rifles.


Yeah, it never shot really great but its not awful. Sometimes a bit under a MOA, sometimes a bit over a MOA, sometimes nice tight group and a way off flyer (which, maybe me) As I said above, its good enough to kill a deer at 200 yards.

I'm getting up there in age, I don't get to do much deer hunting, so....I'll probably just keep on shooting it.

Is what it is. I just really kind of wanted to know how they could fuck it up like that as I thought all chambering was done with a spinning barrel...and apparently I'm was wrong about that wrt to factory production rifles, per iceng who seems to know the subject well.

Cheers

One of my first long range rifle purchases was a R700 XCR long range tactical. Had the 416 stainless fluted black barrel/action and green bell and Carlson stock. 300 WM

36 loads later and several bullets and powder combos. Sold it. Had 1 group under 1 MOA at 100 yards

This is probably 15 years ago. I used the funds to purchase a Savage 10 HS precision in 308. That gun stacked rounds and is a 260 rem still in my safe today.

To this day I’ll buy a savage over a Remington. Tikka over both

 

[powdahound76]

my factory remington 700 223 with a shit looking barrel will shoot the same as that all day long.

Having owned more than a few factory Remingtons, one that will do that on a 5x5 target isnt super common.

Always cool to get one that does though.

 

[Yondering]

But, @iceng very nicely answered my main question which was how the hell did that they do that to the leade while reaming a spinning barrel. Answer, they didn't...production barrels are often reamed with a fixed barrel and spinning reamer. That's what I wanted to understand and I thank @iceng for the answer.

Mmm, this is not fully correct. Or at least not the complete and only explanation.
Your initial assumption that barrels are generally chambered with the barrel spinning in the lathe and the reamer stationary is accurate, but the missing piece is that the reamer is generally held in some sort of floating holder. This allows it to move with the barrel, so it won't just cut a massive oversize chamber and throat if something isn't perfectly centered.

What you encountered with this throat is extremely common in both rifle and pistol barrels, and is caused by an undersized pilot, allowing the reamer to start cutting off-center to the bore, then continue to follow that cut until it was done. So what you have is a throat that's been cut too much on one side, and not enough on the other. The lands of the rifling should be tapered evenly all the way around, and generally shouldn't reach all the way to the case neck portion of the chamber like yours is.

Take a look down a Storm Lake aftermarket Glock barrel sometime - almost every one I've ever seen had a throat very similar to what you've described. Cheap low quality junk, but people bought them by the thousands because they swallowed the lie that Glocks need new barrels to shoot well (never mind the truth that these barrels were universally a downgrade from stock) - point here is if your accuracy expectations are mediocre to start with, something like this can be "good enough" and I'm pretty sure that was Remington's approach at that time.

Yes, you could have that barrel set back and re-chambered, but it's not worth it. Along with the poor chambering job, that barrel could have an oversized bore as well, which would make it a waste of time and money to repair. On the other hand, PVA might still be running some of their prefits for $400 or so, as a better option...

One thing you can't do though is just run a reamer in and "clean it up" as someone suggested above - there's already been too much material cut away from one side of the throat; a correctly piloted reamer could clean up the other side that didn't get cut enough, but can't put steel back.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If there’s rifling in the barrel at all and the bore is mostly centered in the muzzle then you’re doing pretty good with a Remington from that time period.

 

[Baron23]

@Yondering @redneckbmxer24 - thanks for the replies, guys. Cheers

 

[AnimalMother224]

O

Often 'smiths have multiple live pilots, to ensure they get the exact land size, so when the reamer goes in, its exactly centre.

If the drill which made the original hole was blunt, dull, or sharpened off centre, it will drill a slightly bigger hole, and thusly we use pilots to account for that variation.View attachment 8324124

If you put this in a barrel with 1200 rounds on it, it will be loose, so id try a few larger ones to make it a better fit.

Im in Australia, so dont ask me to do it for you !. Happy to answer your questions if you have more.

you should be single point boring your pre drill before you even look at reaming to prevent exactly what you talking bout