• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

How to start finding proper load / seating depth same time?

firmshare

Private
Minuteman
Aug 27, 2022
13
5
Netherlands
Hello. Could you explain for beginners because 2 variables are important: seating depth and load. I just started learning how to reload: what should I do: use the ~20 seating depth option ( if move with 0.003" increment) on each possible load from the range of possible loads (139 scenars on 6.5 credmoor - 34-39.7 gr, as suggested by VihtaVouri in their docs. I have access only for Vihta powders)? To find the right fit?.. Even in 0.5 grain increments, that's 34, 34.5, 35...39.5, that's 10 charges * 20 landings * 3 bullets each == 600 total.. If I don't know the seating depth and load for my new rifle? How to find the right one?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
Hello. Could you explain for beginners because 2 variables are important: seating depth and load. I just started learning how to reload: what should I do: use the ~20 seating depth option ( if move with 0.003" increment) on each possible load from the range of possible loads (139 scenars on 6.5 credmoor - 34-39.7 gr, as suggested by VihtaVouri in their docs. I have access only for Vihta powders)? To find the right fit?.. Even in 0.5 grain increments, that's 34, 34.5, 35...39.5, that's 10 charges * 20 landings * 3 bullets each == 600 total.. If I don't know the seating depth and load for my new rifle? How to find the right one?

Normal COAL for a 6.5 CM is 2.800" and with that COAL, the amount of bearing surface in the neck is .274". I think you'll find that this .274" puts the start of the bearing surface right at the neck-shoulder junction. It's a good idea to not have the bearing surface touching the neck-shoulder junction. So, to start with you'll want to start to go a little longer COAL than the 2.800" and give yourself plenty room to make those seating depth adjustments. Let's say, you're going to do 10 increments (which is more than enough to find a node) of .003" for a total range of .030" Add that to the 2.800 + a little extra to be sure to keep away from the neck-shoulder junction, make the starting COAL 2.840. You could start longer, but you being a beginner, I wouldn't recommend that. This will leave .234" of bearing surface in the neck to start with and that will increase as you adjust you're seating depth down. That .234" in contact with the cartridges neck is plenty to hold well.

Next, start with a powder load no closer than within 90% of the listed max. Load 3 cartridges for each powder load in .3 grs increments. If you use 10 increments, 3 cartridges each, that's 30 you'll be firing. You should find something that looks good within that spread of 10. Select the load that produces the least vertical (not so much a tight group, because you can have a rather small group where all three shots are stacked vertical and that's not what you want). Select the group with a little variation in vertical, even though they may not be touching. You may even see three groups with horizontal pretty much in the same plane; if so, choose the one in the middle or interpolate a powder load that might look the best of them. Once you decide on which powder load looks good, you can move on to seating depth test.

For seating depth test to improve on what you've done so far, you'll be doing 10 increments again of .003" adjustments and using 3 shots for each increment; that equals just 30 bullets. You've evaluation will be much like you did for the powder charge test, only the size of the groups should all be less.

This process I've described so far, you're only firing 60 cartridges. Once you've done your seating test and found a good one, you'll then need to verify it to be sure. If you can't repeat the good groups, then you're got to reevaluate what you see on your test targets. If the good groups are repeating, then you're good to go and you've used less than 100 rounds.

BTW, if you haven't already shot 100-150 rounds through you're new gun, it may be to soon to do such testing as it take a good 100+ rounds to stabilize your barrel. Velocity will typically increase after 100+ rounds, which will make a difference in your load development. Usually, with a new gun or barrel, one can use this time to fireform your cases as that's one of the things that should be done before you get into precision reloading. If precision reloading is not your aim, then . . . never mind.
 
Thank you so much for your reply! i'll follow your instructions, and will load some cartriges, as you described :)
Today i tried with 550vv, 39.5/40/40.5Gr og 2,247 (coal 2,864 - touching lines) and og 2.222 (coal 2.839 - lines-0.025" )
Shooted with bipod:
39.5 og: 2.247": 0.46moa
39.5 og: 2.222": 0.74moa

40.0 og: 2.247": 1.14moa
40.0 og: 2.222": 1.34moa

40.5 - overpressure signs
40.5 og: 2.247": 0.90moa
40.5 og: 2.222": 0.41moa
 

Attachments

  • 39.5-1.jpg
    39.5-1.jpg
    62.8 KB · Views: 72
  • 39.5-2.jpg
    39.5-2.jpg
    58.9 KB · Views: 71
  • 40.5-1.jpg
    40.5-1.jpg
    70.5 KB · Views: 67
  • 40.5-2.jpg
    40.5-2.jpg
    67.2 KB · Views: 66
  • 40-1.jpg
    40-1.jpg
    69.6 KB · Views: 69
  • 40-2.jpg
    40-2.jpg
    62.6 KB · Views: 75
Thank you so much for your reply! i'll follow your instructions, and will load some cartriges, as you described :)
Today i tried with 550vv, 39.5/40/40.5Gr og 2,247 (coal 2,864 - touching lines) and og 2.222 (coal 2.839 - lines-0.025" )
Shooted with bipod:
39.5 og: 2.247": 0.46moa
39.5 og: 2.222": 0.74moa

40.0 og: 2.247": 1.14moa
40.0 og: 2.222": 1.34moa

40.5 - overpressure signs
40.5 og: 2.247": 0.90moa
40.5 og: 2.222": 0.41moa
Hmmmm??? Interesting that you say you're getting pressure signs with 40.5 gr of VV N550. I wouldn't think you'd see pressure signs until around 44.0 grs for that powder. . .

Am not sure what you mean by "touching lines"???
What pressure signs are you seeing?
What brass are you using?
How many rounds through your barrel?

IMHO, the N550 does not fill the case full enough, which does have some effect on consistency. And given you're having pressure signs at 40.5 gr. If you have access some N15O, you might give that a try.

As you follow my instructions, I'd also suggest you use a large piece of blank paper or cardboard and simply draw a straight horizontal line from one side to the other. The simply put some dots along the line for your POA (like using stick on dots or simply draw a small dot with a Sharpie) at ~4" apart. The shoot left to right at the dots in the progression of your seating depths. This makes it much easier to interpret what the load is doing. The interpretation is what can be a little tricky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
Hmmmm??? Interesting that you say you're getting pressure signs with 40.5 gr of VV N550. I wouldn't think you'd see pressure signs until around 44.0 grs for that powder. . .

Am not sure what you mean by "touching lines"???
What pressure signs are you seeing?
What brass are you using?
How many rounds through your barrel?

IMHO, the N550 does not fill the case full enough, which does have some effect on consistency. And given you're having pressure signs at 40.5 gr. If you have access some N15O, you might give that a try.

As you follow my instructions, I'd also suggest you use a large piece of blank paper or cardboard and simply draw a straight horizontal line from one side to the other. The simply put some dots along the line for your POA (like using stick on dots or simply draw a small dot with a Sharpie) at ~4" apart. The shoot left to right at the dots in the progression of your seating depths. This makes it much easier to interpret what the load is doing. The interpretation is what can be a little tricky.
By touching lines, i mean: I took empty prepared brass with ~292neck, put bullet in it and loaded in gun ~20 times, so lines pressed bullet in the brass. So, 2,247 - og of that. And i used it measurement as starting point.

I used lapua brass with small primer... on 40.5 i saw "crater" on primer after shooting.. i was suprised too, on forums, a lot of people told 40.5-40.7 good charge for them. (Vv offer 34-39.7)
 

Attachments

  • 20220830_213842.jpg
    20220830_213842.jpg
    122.5 KB · Views: 120
  • 20220830_213831.jpg
    20220830_213831.jpg
    128.1 KB · Views: 116
By touching lines, i mean: I took empty prepared brass with ~292neck, put bullet in it and loaded in gun ~20 times, so lines pressed bullet in the brass. So, 2,247 - og of that. And i used it measurement as starting point.
OK. So, you're jamming the bullet into the lands to leave impressions on the bullet that you use to measure from. Frankly, that's NOT a good approach. You don't want to jam into the lands as that'll give you a wrong measurement since what you want is a measurement to just barely touch the lands. By jamming the bullet into the lands, that easily can add .015-.020 to what the measurement should be. . . maybe even more.

Now, I've used a similar technique where I've slit the neck of a case to where is holds the bullet just enough (see pic below) that after the lands pushes it in it can be extracted without moving. But I'll not have the neck tight enough to where it leave any kind of impression on the bullet. Then I simply use a comparator to determine what you're calling the og length. Using the same comparator after seating a bullet will tell me how far from just touching the lands I am, like for a starting point.


I used lapua brass with small primer... on 40.5 i saw "crater" on primer after shooting.. i was suprised too, on forums, a lot of people told 40.5-40.7 good charge for them. (Vv offer 34-39.7)
Actually, I really don't see any sign of pressure. Though you see what appears to be cratering, I'd say that has more to do with the space around your firing pin that's making it look that way. The primer doesn't look anywhere near flattened and I so no ejector swipes and you didn't report any hard bolt lift. So, I'd say . . . you don't really have any pressure signs yet.

How many rounds have you fired through your barrel?

Split Neck Dummy Cartridge.JPG
 
Last edited:
Totally i shot for about ~120 rounds (i started with (34.0, 34.5, 35...38) last week, 5 each, with new brass, to get fired brasses. + 2 boxes of factory rounds.
That crater only on 40.5 (lifted metal around firing pin hole), and nothing on 40- and factory rounds.
I'll use labradar next time, to check speed. And will load, as you adviced. Btw, with which one of that loads, that were on pics, better start searching seating depth? For me, 39.5 seems more vertical stable.. or try 40.5+ if it is not a pressure sign?
 
Last edited:
Totally i shot for about ~120 rounds (i started with (34.0, 34.5, 35...38) last week, 5 each, with new brass, to get fired brasses. + 2 boxes of factory rounds.
I only ask because very often there's an issue with the carbon ring build up that happens in the throat just above the case neck. This build up, when it reach a certain point will start to pinch the neck causing higher pressure (along with a sudden increase in velocity). I doubt you're there yet. But it's a good thing to be cognizant about. Even though cleaning patches come out clean, you'd be surprised what you can actually see with a borescope. There's an inexpensive one that you might consider getting as it does a very good job and is a great value. I'm referring to a Teslong Borescope, which can be had for ~$45 (in the US, anyway).

That crater only on 40.5 (lifted metal around firing pin hole), and nothing on 40- and factory rounds.
That's not unusual. If the primers were showing substantial flattening, then I'd see that cratering look as being valid for pressure. The issue can vary depending on the primers being used as some primer are made from thicknesses for different manufacturers and the thinner primers made do that all the time. When you see ejector swipe on the base and/or getting stiff bolt lift, then you know for sure your having pressure issues.

I'll use labradar next time, to check speed. And will load, as you adviced. Btw, with which one of that loads, that were on pics, better start searching seating depth? For me, 39.5 seems more vertical stable.. or try 40.5+ if it is not a pressure sign?
Frankly, I don't care for any of them and having only 3 groups with the .5 gr increments just doesn't work; .5gr is just too far apart for this size of cartridge. I think you should start by using only your 2.247 og and keep it there for this test. Load 3 cartridges for each powder charge staring with 39.5 grs using an increment of .3 grs of powder . . . 39.5, 39.8, 40.1, 40.3, etc. etc. Then shoot each set in order of their order of charge weight from lowest to highest. This way, I and others around here can look at your results and better get an idea of which load is working or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
Try the N160. It has worked wonders for me with the 136s.

And all I am saying.. You do not must go near the lands. Try the short one, scenars are made with the ogive that is very forgiving with coal. But the closer to the lands you go, the bigger the small coal and other changes/variables become.

So far I have shot 3 5-shot groups with the rifle, at 300m .5moa and .3moa (testing 2 different cases, 60fps difference but still the 10-shot total group was .8moa)
At 500m .74moa.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
During load development at 300m it shot all of the loads from 44 to 45.8 within 1 moa. 44 went .7moa low, 44.6 .3 left and the 45.1 and 45.5 stacked on top of each other.
I started from low seating depth just because I was too lazy to measure the depth to lands, this was my friends rifle and he asked to make a load for it.

After noticing the effects I went to google yo search why it worked. Seems like longer jump is a new advancement made in the internal ballistics department. And old thing for sure but now we have data, better barrels, and how I see it, we have learned to distinct nichee of benchrest precision (.1 to .2 moa) from practical precision. You need a load that works you night and day, dirty or clean throat, probably till your barrel is shot out. I am ready to see how far this will work for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
Thank you for your help! Today i tried what you adviced.
Got results:
6.5 creedmoor, VV550, lapua brass sr primer.
At first i started load 38-39.5gr with 2.736 col (as Near Miss adviced). With 0.3 gr step (as StraightShooter1 adviced). Labradar glitched and i was able to record just some shots speed. I got results:

Gr COL SPEED Comment
38 2.736 2415 First 2 bullets same hole, 3rd down, just 1st shot recorded
38.3 2.736 - All 3 separated
38.6 2.736 - Vertical deviation
38.9 2.736 - Vertical deviation (less), more horisontal deviation
39.2 2.736 2592 Vertical deviation (less), speed 2592-2591-2592
39.5 2.736 2612 Vertical/horizontal same, speed same, all 3 shots.

Then i shot 3 groups with different col. (load 39 gr). I started from 2.8 (as StraightShooter1 adviced)

Gr COL SPEED Comment
39 2.800 2589/2572/2602 Vertical/horizontal deviation
39 2.803 -/2549/2559 Vertical/horizontal deviation
39 2.806 2562/-/2536 2 bullets close, 3rd separate in vertacal.
39 2.809 -/2575/2572 Group very close.
39 2.812 -/2582/- Vertical deviation.

Looks like in 2.736 more stable speed, but i cant find good group there... Can you help me, please, what to do next?
Sorry for pics quality, i've ordered some targets, as StraightShooter adviced, still wait for them. Today was a bit rainy, so, paper wet..


 

Attachments

  • 2.812.jpg
    2.812.jpg
    73 KB · Views: 59
  • 2.809.jpg
    2.809.jpg
    70.9 KB · Views: 60
  • 2.806.jpg
    2.806.jpg
    76.8 KB · Views: 65
  • 2.803.jpg
    2.803.jpg
    69.3 KB · Views: 52
  • 2.8.jpg
    2.8.jpg
    76.9 KB · Views: 51
  • 39.5.jpg
    39.5.jpg
    71 KB · Views: 46
  • 39.2.jpg
    39.2.jpg
    72.4 KB · Views: 48
  • 38.jpg
    38.jpg
    64 KB · Views: 58
  • 38.9.jpg
    38.9.jpg
    67.5 KB · Views: 50
  • 38.6.jpg
    38.6.jpg
    66.5 KB · Views: 60
  • 38.3.jpg
    38.3.jpg
    67.3 KB · Views: 54
  • Like
Reactions: AutoBolt308
Thank you for your help! Today i tried what you adviced.
Got results:
6.5 creedmoor, VV550, lapua brass sr primer.
At first i started load 38-39.5gr with 2.736 col (as Near Miss adviced). With 0.3 gr step (as StraightShooter1 adviced). Labradar glitched and i was able to record just some shots speed. I got results:

Gr COL SPEED Comment
38 2.736 2415 First 2 bullets same hole, 3rd down, just 1st shot recorded
38.3 2.736 - All 3 separated
38.6 2.736 - Vertical deviation
38.9 2.736 - Vertical deviation (less), more horisontal deviation
39.2 2.736 2592 Vertical deviation (less), speed 2592-2591-2592
39.5 2.736 2612 Vertical/horizontal same, speed same, all 3 shots.

Then i shot 3 groups with different col. (load 39 gr). I started from 2.8 (as StraightShooter1 adviced)

Gr COL SPEED Comment
39 2.800 2589/2572/2602 Vertical/horizontal deviation
39 2.803 -/2549/2559 Vertical/horizontal deviation
39 2.806 2562/-/2536 2 bullets close, 3rd separate in vertacal.
39 2.809 -/2575/2572 Group very close.
39 2.812 -/2582/- Vertical deviation.

Looks like in 2.736 more stable speed, but i cant find good group there... Can you help me, please, what to do next?
Sorry for pics quality, i've ordered some targets, as StraightShooter adviced, still wait for them. Today was a bit rainy, so, paper wet..


Hmmmm??? Well . . . you started off ok going from 38.0 to 39.5 with a COAL of 2.736. I would've gone 3 or 4 more charges to get a clearer picture. That you chose 39.0 grs to move onto your next step for seating depths is not a bad choice as your pics do suggest that can work. However, when you went to your seating depth testing, you should have started at that 2.736 COAL using 39.0 grs, not the 2.800 COAL. By jumping to 2.800 COAL, you've, in effect, nullified what you got at the shorter COAL and essentially just started from scratch to do seating depth adjustments. What you wanted to do is to have your seating depth test fine tune the best result from your powder testing.

Where you're at now, and if you're happy with this velocity, I'd try some .1 gr increments of VV550 on both of that 39.g at 2.809 COAL.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
That is a lot of vertical deviation in comparison to horizontal.
Do you adjust the bipod height so that you get pretty much straight line of sight from the get-go? As it looks like there were some wrestling going on. What kind of accuracy does it produce with factory match ammo or ammo it likes?

I would like you to do a pressure test first, unless you want to shoot at 2600fps.

1 round per ~0.4gr of powder and towards higher charge 0.2gr.

The VV gives 41.05gr / 2.66g for N550 max load, (incorrect, this was for 136gr, not the 139gr) so you can load for example:
39.30
39.60
40
40.2
40.4
40.6
40.8

You can go up to 41 and over if you feel like it and have disassembly hammer. Otherwise I would advise to do 41 and over that in a separate session if deemed necessary / safe.

Main idea is to see how fast can you get the bullet and where pressure signs start to appear.

But you can also gather data from these pressure tests on what load might your rifle prefer, but to do that you need to have some baseline for accuracy. Changes within error margin are to be ignored rather than read like tea leaves. Different powder charges will change the group position. You want a powder charge that is far from group having a position (POI) change.

I suggest you make pressure test and find your top velocity, then focus around that powder charge and try to find a charge that fits your rifle.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
That is a lot of vertical deviation in comparison to horizontal.
Do you adjust the bipod height so that you get pretty much straight line of sight from the get-go? As it looks like there were some wrestling going on. What kind of accuracy does it produce with factory match ammo or ammo it likes?

I would like you to do a pressure test first, unless you want to shoot at 2600fps.

1 round per ~0.4gr of powder and towards higher charge 0.2gr.

The VV gives 41.05gr / 2.66g for N550 max load, so you can load for example:
39.30
39.60
40
40.2
40.4
40.6
40.8

You can go up to 41 and over if you feel like it and have disassembly hammer. Otherwise I would advise to do 41 and over that in a separate session if deemed necessary / safe.

Main idea is to see how fast can you get the bullet and where pressure signs start to appear.

But you can also gather data from these pressure tests on what load might your rifle prefer, but to do that you need to have some baseline for accuracy. Changes within error margin are to be ignored rather than read like tea leaves. Different powder charges will change the group position. You want a powder charge that is far from group having a position (POI) change.

I suggest you make pressure test and find your top velocity, then focus around that powder charge and try to find a charge that fits your rifle.
. . . if there's not problem seating long out to a 2.809 (plenty of room still), he could go further with a pressure test . . . like 43.0 grs.

6.5 Creedmoor.jpg


QuickLoad estimate.jpg
 
COAL adjustments are best left the last thing you improve. Most important is to get a charge your rifle likes. This is somewhat nuanced per each rifle but there are some universal loads that work well, at least for a starting point.

I should have pointed out from your original post that you do not need to do pressure testing with 3 shots and in small increments. Best is if you find the velocity fitting for your needs asap and then as I mentioned, focus around that powder charge with small increments to find an accurate powder charge.

Doing powder and coal in the exact same run is for very experienced reloaders, it is usually hard in itself already to make decisions.
 
COAL adjustments are best left the last thing you improve. Most important is to get a charge your rifle likes. This is somewhat nuanced per each rifle but there are some universal loads that work well, at least for a starting point.

I should have pointed out from your original post that you do not need to do pressure testing with 3 shots and in small increments. Best is if you find the velocity fitting for your needs asap and then as I mentioned, focus around that powder charge with small increments to find an accurate powder charge.

Doing powder and coal in the exact same run is for very experienced reloaders, it is usually hard in itself already to make decisions.
Just so to be sure to avoid any confusion ;) :

COAL adjustments = seating depth adjustments
 
  • Like
Reactions: Near miss
we started with a factory round that the gun show extreamly well went longer tried a little shorter had good results factory length and longer I could not tell the difference between the two so I stopped and went with what was easier to load for . as the barrel wears we will extend the length as needed but see no reason to fart around with what's working so far . best of luck to you with your gun .
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
. . . if there's not problem seating long out to a 2.809 (plenty of room still), he could go further with a pressure test . . . like 43.0 grs.
I agree. Just do not want to push him to possibly go over book limits without him acknowledging what pressure testing is and how he is supposed to diagnose the cases. Was not sure why he picked the 38-39gr zone either, thought that he may want a softer load.

To OP, I too recommend going all the way until cases and primers show pressure marks / bolt stiffens and then, of course, staying below that.
 
Thank you very much for your help! I'll do more charges and will check the velocity.
I picked the 38-39gr zone, because in VV book, there is 39.7 as max load. Probably mistake in that book, because speed that i got with that load is much lower.
Im not so experienced shooter. Line almost straight between sight and target. But im still learning to shoot well, so, probably can do mistakes sometime when i shoot.
Thank you very much for your replies!
 

Attachments

  • VV load.jpg
    VV load.jpg
    140.4 KB · Views: 44
Thank you very much for your help! I'll do more charges and will check the velocity.
I picked the 38-39gr zone, because in VV book, there is 39.7 as max load. Probably mistake in that book, because speed that i got with that load is much lower.
Im not so experienced shooter. Line almost straight between sight and target. But im still learning to shoot well, so, probably can do mistakes sometime when i shoot.
Thank you very much for your replies!
No, I'm sure it's not a mistake. Keep in mind that max load in the VVbook is based on a COAL of 2.717. The longer the COAL the more case capacity for more powder while still staying within max pressure. And as far as the books velocity, it's based on their 25 1/2 barrel, so if you're barrel is 24", you're not going to see the velocity they've published with those numbers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
we started with a factory round that the gun show extreamly well went longer tried a little shorter had good results factory length and longer I could not tell the difference between the two so I stopped and went with what was easier to load for . as the barrel wears we will extend the length as needed but see no reason to fart around with what's working so far . best of luck to you with your gun .
"As the barrel wears" it's best NOT to extend the length, but to keep the cartridge with the same dimensions as long as it's shooting well. If you chase the lands like that, you're just make more work for yourself and use up more components than needs be. Stick to what works, until it doesn't. 🥴
 
  • Like
Reactions: acudaowner
I've tried today 40gr-42.1 gr with 0.3gr increment. So, on 42.1 good speed (860-866m/s : 2822-2841fps), but lot of vertical. No pressure signs. Could you advice, please, which charge should i select to start experiments with coal? There are results (6.5 creedmoor; coal 2,809; vv550; lapua brass, 139scenar)
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    45.9 KB · Views: 57
  • 3.jpg
    3.jpg
    42.3 KB · Views: 50
  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    53.9 KB · Views: 56
  • 4.jpg
    4.jpg
    47.7 KB · Views: 47
  • scenar139.jpg
    scenar139.jpg
    36.5 KB · Views: 59
IMO you don't really have a node there. I'll admit I didn't read this whole thread, there is a million videos on load dev and tuning so you can go read or watch and decide what ever you want.
Erik Cortina has some really good load dev videos. Not sure if you can view without being a member on his site.
here is the short of it.
1) Choose a max COAL. Either .020 from jam (literally sticking the bullet) or .020 shorter than mag length, which ever suits your needs. Depending on mag and such you may not be able to chamber a round that is mag length so you'll have to look into that yourself.
2) load up a powder ladder test .3gr increments and shoot across chrono until you see pressure.
3) look at chrono speeds and find a flat spot in velocity (hopefully 3 charge weights shooting really close velocity)
4) choose middle charge weight
5) load a seating depth test .003" shorter for as many rounds as it takes your groups to tighten and then open back up. again hopefully 3 lengths having a node,
6) Choose seating depth. (.001 or .002 shorter than the longest)
7) Fine powder test. go +/- 0.5gr from powder charge in 0.1gr increments and determine which groups the best (3 rounds)
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
I've tried today 40gr-42.1 gr with 0.3gr increment. So, on 42.1 good speed (860-866m/s : 2822-2841fps), but lot of vertical. No pressure signs. Could you advice, please, which charge should i select to start experiments with coal? There are results (6.5 creedmoor; coal 2,809; vv550; lapua brass, 139scenar)
It appears to me like there's something from 40.3 - 40.9. The vertical isn't bad there and that 40.6 group may be something you did with your mechanics??? Before doing any seating adjustments, I'd run those particular loads again to confirm what we're seeing there. Doing these loads again to confirm will then tell you what you might want to use to begin seating depth test to tighten things up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
Thank you for your replies! I didnt do any changes in mechanics.. just used 2.809 coal for this charges tests. Also, i tried one group 40.6 with old 2.736 col (was curious, if it will cause velocity change, because quick load program show significant velocity changes because of coal, so 1 loaded 3 cartriges with 2.736 - result - same speed). Thank you very much for your help, i'll load 40.3-40.9 again and will post there
 

Attachments

  • 20220920_224533.jpg
    20220920_224533.jpg
    112.6 KB · Views: 52
  • 20220920_224548.jpg
    20220920_224548.jpg
    111.6 KB · Views: 51
  • Like
Reactions: straightshooter1
Thank you for your replies! I didnt do any changes in mechanics.. just used 2.809 coal for this charges tests. Also, i tried one group 40.6 with old 2.736 col (was curious, if it will cause velocity change, because quick load program show significant velocity changes because of coal, so 1 loaded 3 cartriges with 2.736 - result - same speed). Thank you very much for your help, i'll load 40.3-40.9 again and will post there
What I'm referring to with regard to "mechanics", are things like trigger pull, grip, cheek weld, shoulder pressure, consistent sight picture, etc.

I'm currently testing a new powder load (VV565) now too and am at the same stage as you are. Below are the targets and you can see on the very last shot on the last target (on the far right), I messed up with my "mechanics". The first target (far left), the 1st shot out of a clean barrel was a flyer and the rest was a starting load . . . just to give you an idea of what's going on there. My next step is confirmation then seating depth test.

6.5PRC 142SMK N565.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
What I'm referring to with regard to "mechanics", are things like trigger pull, grip, cheek weld, shoulder pressure, consistent sight picture, etc.

I'm currently testing a new powder load (VV565) now too and am at the same stage as you are. Below are the targets and you can see on the very last shot on the last target (on the far right), I messed up with my "mechanics". The first target (far left), the 1st shot out of a clean barrel was a flyer and the rest was a starting load . . . just to give you an idea of what's going on there. My next step is confirmation then seating depth test.

View attachment 7960231
awesome shots!
As for mechanics, I might have made some mistakes. I whatched some lessons on youtube, tried to do my best to be cosistent, but im newbie.
 
The 40.2 might well be good, worth testing more
40.6 it starts to double group towards left or you pulled a shot. (Probably)
40.9 the group has shifted to right
41.2 it is shifting to left again?
41.5 still shifting?
41.8 and 42.1 good grouping, maybe redo. The 860 MV would probably start having pressure problems in the summer.


What I'm referring to with regard to "mechanics", are things like trigger pull, grip, cheek weld, shoulder pressure, consistent sight picture, etc.

I'm currently testing a new powder load (VV565) now too and am at the same stage as you are. Below are the targets and you can see on the very last shot on the last target (on the far right), I messed up with my "mechanics". The first target (far left), the 1st shot out of a clean barrel was a flyer and the rest was a starting load . . . just to give you an idea of what's going on there. My next step is confirmation then seating depth test.

View attachment 7960231
I am betting you chose to re-run 56.5, not because of the group size but the POI stays very identical with 56.2 and 56.8
 
  • Like
Reactions: firmshare
The 40.2 might well be good, worth testing more
40.6 it starts to double group towards left or you pulled a shot. (Probably)
40.9 the group has shifted to right
41.2 it is shifting to left again?
41.5 still shifting?
41.8 and 42.1 good grouping, maybe redo. The 860 MV would probably start having pressure problems in the summer.



I am betting you chose to re-run 56.5, not because of the group size but the POI stays very identical with 56.2 and 56.8
You're right regarding 56.5 and will be confirming that load, then work on the seating depth if it pans out.

41.8's vertical is ok, the horizontal is too much, and . . . the groups on either side are not good. Like the vertical on 42.1 is not acceptable (IMHO) and your right to point out that could pose a problem in high heat situations. There's little room to see what a little more powder might do to the right of 42.1 (unless one seating longer).

Hopefully, his confirmation test will be more definitive and can see if he's got a wide node there or not.
 
A good group can be a bad load. But on average a bad load cannot make good group. The group cannot get smaller with more rounds in it.

The data validity is important and essential to making decisions. But much more you want to see the differences between loads, not their 100% performance.

More important is to know the statistical error margins and compare the groups to a baseline accuracy achieved by the shooter, rifle and that particular load.
 
A good group can be a bad load. But on average a bad load cannot make good group. The group cannot get smaller with more rounds in it.

from 3 to 20 shot groups: it could be the worst 3 shot groups the best 20 shot group and vice sersa. just flip a coin.

if those old shooters refuse statistical science, than it's possible only 2 things: whole analytical science is wrong and we need to redifine statistics and they can win lotery every time, or they are wrong ?!?
 
it's better to flip a coin for choosing a load than read it from 3-shot groups from statistical point of view 🤡
What you say is very true and why additional testing (like more 3 or 5 shot groups) of the same loads is needed for some level of confirmation. For me, the size of a group (in terms of their ES) is not very important as the location of the 3 shot groups and their shape. I'm looking for the group at the antinode of the harmonic sine wave and that are preferably not vertical or horizontal. When I can identify those things in a string of groups, the load tends to work well and group can be shrunk with some fine tuning. In the end and in my mind, using Mean Radius is a better statistical way to evaluate performance than ES measurements when using small amounts of data points.

Here's a clear example of 15 3-shot groups showing the harmonic sine wave I'm talking about:
Barrel Harmonic Sine Wave-.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirtbiker250
Exactly. I too just try to read which powder charge window has the least movement.
What is the average accuracy / SD (I pretty much just add all the rounds together and calc my MV SD from there)
And any interpretations are tested again with larger samples.

And it comes down to:
I think most of the charges make good group for my shooting and there is not much to me to improve on. But I rather make SOME testing to determine to have SOME data behind my decision. So the idea is not to find the absolutely best but avoid the worst.
 
Last edited:
What you say is very true and why additional testing (like more 3 or 5 shot groups) of the same loads is needed for some level of confirmation. For me, the size of a group (in terms of their ES) is not very important as the location of the 3 shot groups and their shape. I'm looking for the group at the antinode of the harmonic sine wave and that are preferably not vertical or horizontal. When I can identify those things in a string of groups, the load tends to work well and group can be shrunk with some fine tuning. In the end and in my mind, using Mean Radius is a better statistical way to evaluate performance than ES measurements when using small amounts of data points.

Here's a clear example of 15 3-shot groups showing the harmonic sine wave I'm talking about:
View attachment 7964537
probably too much 'harmonics' for 100y. because of too small sample. try load/position 3. and 9. for 20 shots and tell how is harmonics and where the groups are.

exactly this way is 'ladder' doing, but wait for Bryan's book that will tell you that this is bullshit because your nodes are just too small sample and those flat spots exists only in your heads...
 
Hello. I was watching at your groups, and realized, i did something wrong. I saw, that my first 2-3 groups usually smaller then the rest. So, next time i didn't clean my barrel before range at all and my groups when i repeat loads 40.3 - 40.6 - 40.9 -41.3 were huge.
After i came home i cleaned hard my barrel with iosso paste, cleaned throat, cleaned bore. (before i cleaned just with butch, "sweets" solvent. I could see in my 6.5 barrel copper inside, but patches with solvent came out white - i don't have such problem in my 338lm and 30-06 rifles). And started to pay more attention on my seating position, etc.
So, i got -10m/s ( - 33fps ) speed on same loads after cleaning. (even on pic: first 40.5 "warmup" group on absolutely clean barrel and 3rd 40.5 - different speed). And all separation from the group were, when i feel, that i handle recoil wrong way.
So, i guess, i need to do something with my mechanics at first.
Thank you for your time and your advices!
 

Attachments

  • photo_2022-10-02_00-01-34.jpg
    photo_2022-10-02_00-01-34.jpg
    134.5 KB · Views: 46
  • barrel.jpg
    barrel.jpg
    48.8 KB · Views: 53
  • Like
Reactions: Near miss