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How to start with bushing dies?

BearNaked

BearNaked

Beer Saved The World
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 13, 2017
609
217
Texas
#1
I am fixing to be reabarreling my rifle in a 260 rem and really like the ability to control neck tension with the bushing dies but how in the hell do you get started with those?

these are the ones i am looking at and they are saying to use someone elses dies to start out so you can get your neck sized down. just to make sure i am understanding this properly, i have to buy a die just to find out the bushing and then i can get the rest of the set?

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....gton-type-s-match-bushing-full-length-die-set
 
#2
Bushing size is primarily dependent on the brass you are going to use because of the different neck wall thicknesses. Once you have made your decision on brass, you can post and ask what a loaded round measures at the neck. From this measurement, most of us subtract .002 to determine which bushing to buy. Many times you can just ask and those who reload using the same brass and bullet will reply with a measurement or bushing size for you.
 
#3
ok well that is simple enough but if i am also going to start turning necks then wouldnt this all come into play and if we are talking about thou's? Shouldnt it be more precise than other peoples measurements that may cut more/less than i do? I seriously dont know so i am asking and not trying to be a smartass.

i will be using lake city brass necked down to 260. most likely going to get the K&M neck turner and turn them to get about 90-95% cleaned. i am hoping for more but we will see. what else would you need to know to get a number
 
#4
The sizing bushing isnt included. You should still be able to take a piece of factory brass and use the seater to create a dummy round to base your measurements off of. Should work unless your factory necks are so loose that they wont hold grip the bullet or youre using once fired.

Or just post up what youre using and its almost guaranteed someone has used the combo before and could report the proper size to you. Im seeing from limited searching that Lapua is .015 thick, so for that it would be a .292 bushing, rem looks to be .013 so a .288 for that brass.

EDIT: you responded back quicker than I could type. If youre turning necks then figure out what dimension youll want to trim to because everything else will be dependant on that. For that I process I would use a mandrel the first step so that you have an even neck on the inside and you would know how much you need to trim to get them even without taking off too much. Youll also want a micrometer for that work as normal calipers will only read off of the high spots and you want to get it down even with the low spots but that doesnt necessarily have any bearing on the bushing size as that would be derived after they are already trimmed. I would also like to know what your throat will be reamed to because that will depend how much you need to trim the necks and the other numbers would all stem from that. If your throat will be over .004 larger than the loaded round I wouldn't trim because that just means it will expand and have to be sized back down even more each time than it would normally.

Read this for some basic info on turning necks http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html
 
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#5
Best way is to get a venier ball mic and measure neck thickness. So if your neck thickness was 0.15, you would calculate 0.015 + 0.015 + 0.264. then subtract 0.002. for a 0.002 neck tension.
 
#6
spife7980 said:
The sizing bushing isnt included. You should still be able to take a piece of factory brass and use the seater to create a dummy round to base your measurements off of. Should work unless your factory necks are so loose that they wont hold grip the bullet or youre using once fired.

Or just post up what youre using and its almost guaranteed someone has used the combo before and could report the proper size to you. Im seeing from limited searching that Lapua is .015 thick, so for that it would be a .292 bushing, rem looks to be .013 so a .298 for that brass.

EDIT: you responded back quicker than I could type. If youre turning necks then figure out what dimension youll want to trim to because everything else will be dependant on that. For that I process I would use a mandrel the first step so that you have an even neck on the inside and you would know how much you need to trim to get them even without taking off too much. Youll also want a micrometer for that work as normal calipers will only read off of the high spots and you want to get it down even with the low spots but that doesnt necessarily have any bearing on the bushing size as that would be derived after they are already trimmed. I would also like to know what your throat will be reamed to because that will depend how much you need to trim the necks and the other numbers would all stem from that. If your throat will be over .004 larger than the loaded round I wouldn't trim because that just means it will expand and have to be sized back down even more each time than it would normally.

Read this for some basic info on turning necks http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html
Click to expand...

MY HEAD IS NOW HURTING.

so would the same mandrel they provide with the K&M work or are you talking about a mandrel that uniforms/cuts the ID of the neck?

as for the throat, i dont know. i am getting the barrel from southern precision rifles and they are doing the savage pre-fit on it for me so i am not real sure what it would be.
 
#7
The other way is to get a few different sizes and see what the load likes. You could get 0.291, 0.292, and 0.293. I used a 0.291 on RP brass and it worked good. That brass is somewhat thin. Lapua was 0.292 but I had to neck turn with my chamber. Use a 0.262 neck turning mandrel if you are going to do that. Set your cutter with a feeler gauge of 0.015 and go from there. Reloading is the ultimate tinker hobby LOL.
 
#8
nexusfire said:
Best way is to get a venier ball mic and measure neck thickness. So if your neck thickness was 0.15, you would calculate 0.015 + 0.015 + 0.264. then subtract 0.002. for a 0.002 neck tension.
Click to expand...

I understand how to get the number from a case that has already been sized down to the proper size but how do i get it there from a fresh case?

I have lake city brass for my 308 that i am sizing down. i dont have any 260 brass to start with. i would like to use a bushing die but it sounds like i have to get an extra die to size it down before i can use a bushing die.
 
#9
nexusfire said:
The other way is to get a few different sizes and see what the load likes. You could get 0.291, 0.292, and 0.293. I used a 0.291 on RP brass and it worked good. That brass is somewhat thin. Lapua was 0.292 but I had to neck turn with my chamber. Use a 0.262 neck turning mandrel if you are going to do that. Set your cutter with a feeler gauge of 0.015 and go from there. Reloading is the ultimate tinker hobby LOL.
Click to expand...


so here is my question on this. if i want a neck thickness of .015 then i could just cut it until it gets down to that and be good to go with the bushing i was to neck size it down. the only issue i see is if the chamber is larger than that then what do i do. i really need to know what my chamber will hold before i can even begin to start on the bushing.

pretty much i will have to get another die just to size it down and then once i have it setup i will be able to go to the bushing die.

Edit: your last sentence is extremely true. tinker with everything.
 
#10
Yeah, Im kind of scatter brained when trying to relay this info through text, not intending to hurt your head.

There is a difference in the expanding mandrels that they use to size and those used for cutting. They are expanders: sized to expand brass to a uniform inside dimension prior to cutting and then turning: to fit inside of the sized case during trimming. So you will want an expander die with a mandrel for that step and then the turner will have a separate mandrel for that step.

Im seeing some chamber diagrams and 260s are reamed from .297-.299 [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/caprc.com\/gfx\/260print.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/thebarreloutlet.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/08\/260rem.jpg"}[/IMG2]





So unless your throat will be smaller than .297 I wouldnt entertain the notion that turning necks will do too much good for you since youre asking here (practical use oriented) and not at accurate shooter (bench/F oriented).

2.64+(.015*2)=.294. Even the "match" chambers are showing you having .003 clearance (.0015 each side) which should be adequate for factory necks with the thickest dimension Ive seen, with the thinner rem brass (.013) you would have .007-.009 clearance. If that number gets down lower than .003 then you might need to consider trimming to clean them up and give you a little elbow room. But if you were to trim those rem brass down to say .012 then they could expand .009-.011. You can see that the more they are trimmed the more then expand upon firing thus increasing the amount of working that you subject the brass to inorder for them to hold the next bullet.

You could also just get a bushing for the thinner brass and just work the thicker necks the couple thousandth more with the expander ball bumping them back out and not worry about it until you get to the point that you feel it would be of benefit to you. You might also find that investing in 260 brass will be a more cost effective/efficient approach than buying all the tools for turning and making other brass do.
 
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#11
BearNaked said:
so here is my question on this. if i want a neck thickness of .015 then i could just cut it until it gets down to that and be good to go with the bushing i was to neck size it down. the only issue i see is if the chamber is larger than that then what do i do. i really need to know what my chamber will hold before i can even begin to start on the bushing.

pretty much i will have to get another die just to size it down and then once i have it setup i will be able to go to the bushing die.

Edit: your last sentence is extremely true. tinker with everything.
Click to expand...

You will need to resize after you fire it. You want to neck turn only after you size it. If you are converting 308 brass I would run it thru a full length die without a bushing first. Then run it thru again with a bushing. Trim the neck and then turn it. Then fire form it because most likely the shoulder won't be perfect. I have converted lapua 308 to 6.5 creedmoor this way.
 
#13
To make things even more complicated, let me throw a little curve-ball in the mixture also... If you decided to get TiN (Titanium Nitride) bushings, the TiN coating will make the ID of the bushing .001 smaller than what is stamped onto it. Learned this after I was wondering why everything was tensioned +.001 tighter (not that .001 makes a world of difference as long as it's consistent).
 
#14
BearNaked said:
so here is my question on this. if i want a neck thickness of .015 then i could just cut it until it gets down to that and be good to go with the bushing i was to neck size it down. Yes but only provided that they arent thinner than that. If they are thinner then you wont be sizing anything at all. This is why the expander mandrel is important, it pushes all of the high spots outside. You can then use the micrometer to measure a few places and figure out the minimum dimension and then trim the high spots down to that minimum (or .0005 less for perfect uniformity) so that they are all the same the only issue i see is if the chamber is larger than that then what do i do. i really need to know what my chamber will hold before i can even begin to start on the bushing. You will need to know the chamber yes but also the brass thickness you intend to put inside of the chamber. Whether that is real world or derived mathematically. We already know the bullet is .264, its the difference between that and the chamber that we need to fill but not so full that it wedges itself in there without any room to expand and let go of the bullet.

pretty much i will have to get another die just to size it down and then once i have it setup i will be able to go to the bushing die.
If you are repurposing 308 LC to 260 (or neck trimming period) then you will want an actual full length resizer such as a forster or something first because bushing dies dont size the entire neck, they will leave a bit at the base unsized. Dont think that you could just trim the rmaining 308 at the base down because then you would have no supporting material left on the inside, you need to squeeze that 308 diameter stuff down to 260 fully to maintain enough material for the brass to maintain its integrity with trimming. Many people would get a 7-08 die and then the 260 to do it in smaller steps to eliminate any issues of moving too much brass too quickly.

Edit: your last sentence is extremely true. tinker with everything.
Click to expand...

And ignore AIAWs comment, the last thing you need at this stage is fancy TiN bushings muddying up the waters anymore for you LOL. Once you get to the point that you know the bushing you intend to use then you can worry about it. Until that point ge the dimension of the throat from your smith and get to reading for people who have converted 308LC to 260 and see what their specs were.
 
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#15
I found this https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...08-win.606716/ (Ignore the Fguffy guy, hes a pain in the ass and thank god he isnt on the hide)

"The factory 260 Rem chambers are typically .299" neck.
The factory 260 Rem full length sizer dies are typically .284" neck.
The factory 260 Rem brass with a 6.5mm bullet are typically .292" neck.
The military 308 LC97 brass with a 6.5mm bullet are typically .299" neck.

The brass used for 260 is 7mm-08, 260, 243, and 308. Which brass is going to be used drives what diameter to have the sizer neck honed.
The stock Forster full length sizing die has a neck that will go with a .284" pin gauge.
---------------------------------
The 260 SAAMI drawing tolerances for the chamber neck are:
a) .299 - .301" at the rear of the neck
b) .298 - .300" at the front of the neck


As best I can measure with pin gauges, my 260 [long chambered at Douglas] is:
a) .299" at the rear of the neck
b) .298" at the front of the neck


I have used 308 brass, 243 brass, and 260 brass in my 260.
My experiences are consistent, but not a complete verification of the synopsis I offer here of internet folklore mythology I have read about the 260:
1) 7mm-08 brass is the best, good fit between chamber neck and ammo neck
2) 260 brass is second best
3) 243 brass is third best. It gets a donut formed at the base of the neck
4) 308 brass is 4th best. Commercial brass will work. 10% of the time there will be a nasty pressure spike from a pinched bullet. These misfits can be sorted out, turned, or reamed.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/260 Remington.pdf

The Douglas long chambered 98 Mauser barrel is .299" rear of the neck and .298" forward.

The stock Forster size die is .284"

The 308 brass comes out of the 260 die with .277" neck with a bell at the mouth.

after using Expander ball after sizing, .297" od neck, .260" id neck, .016" neck wall measured, .0185" calculated, concentricity at neck od .003"

This means that a .264" bullet would bulge the neck od .297+ .004" = .301", which should chamber with .298 - .301" = .003" interference

Seating a 140 gr at 2.925", there is some lands engagement.
The neck measures .297" with the LC97 brass


What does it all mean?
308 brass is the worst of the above 4 options"
 
Last edited:
#16
spife7980 said:
And ignore AIAWs comment, the last thing you need at this stage is fancy TiN bushings muddying up the waters anymore for you LOL. Once you get to the point that you know the bushing you intend to use then you can worry about it. Until that point ge the dimension of the throat from your smith and get to reading for people who have converted 308LC to 260 and see what their specs were.
Click to expand...

Awww, ok... fair enough ;)
 
#17
If it were me I would just buy a couple hundred Lapua 260 cases, use a .292 or .293 TIN bushing, and skip neck turning and sizing down 308 Lake City brass. Probably cheaper in the long run, less headache, and more accurate.
 
#18
#20
BearNaked said:
I am fixing to be reabarreling my rifle in a 260 rem and really like the ability to control neck tension with the bushing dies but how in the hell do you get started with those?

these are the ones i am looking at and they are saying to use someone elses dies to start out so you can get your neck sized down. just to make sure i am understanding this properly, i have to buy a die just to find out the bushing and then i can get the rest of the set?
Click to expand...

Problem solved! See link below...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...ss-and-bullets

 
#21
well the reason i was going to use lake city brass was because i have about 1700 cases already for the 308. so it would be more cost effective in the long run if i can turn the 308 into 260.

I think i will just get a set of hornady dies that are $50 right now and work into the bushing dies at a later time once i already have some converted. Thanks for all the help on this. everytime i ask a question it seems i have to become more of a machinist to work on it. yet it still amazes me that you can go buy ammo off the shelf and it work just fine without any development done with your rifle.
 
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