Was looking to get a howa 1500 barreled action in 6.5 creed was in a toss up between a mdt lss xl gen2 or a krg bravo
- Thread starter Minnesotabean
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I would look at the oryx chassis. I have tried all three with Howa rifles and I would choose it. Hope this helps.
Between the LSS and Bravo, I would go with the Bravo.
You may also want to look at the Oryx chassis, it feels a lot more solid and balanced then the LSS. Another option, is the MDT XRS chassis, it will cost about the same as the LSS and have a better fit and balance.
You may also want to look at the Oryx chassis, it feels a lot more solid and balanced then the LSS. Another option, is the MDT XRS chassis, it will cost about the same as the LSS and have a better fit and balance.
Bravo, full stop.
Don't bother with anything MDT unless you go ACC, all of their less expensive chassis come with compromises that'll just make you wish you bought an ACC in the first place anyway... Not sure about the LSS, but I know the XRS for the Howa forces you to have to use their mags and/or alter your action.
The cool thing about the Bravo is that it's just as adaptable and modular as any other KRG chassis, it accepts pretty much all of the same stuff, and can do all of the same things as their more expensive top-tier Whiskey chassis'.
Here's mine: Howa 1500 BA from Brownells, Crown Ridge Barrel Works X-Caliber MTU 6CM 1:7.5, Bravo + almost everything KRG makes for it. Weighs ~23lbs unloaded, balances perfectly and puts rifles costing 4x as much to shame on a regular basis...
Thanks brother
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Thanks brother this really helps a lot. How is the howa action,and what kinda pad is that on the cheek riser. Also does the krg accept the magpul aics mags
The Howa 1500 action is awesome, it's as good or better than many of the R700-clone custom actions, most of the same features too: 1-piece bolt, integral lug, M16 extractor, etc. The only thing wonky about them is that they're metric thread for the barrel tenon, which isn't really an issue because most places that make prefit barrels also offer prefits in metric for Howa's (known as a "Howage"). IMO there is nothing the Howa 1500 action has to make any excuses for, design/engineering-wise it is a pretty bad-ass hybrid of a Remington M700 and a Winchester M70. The bolt lift when cocking the action could be a little lighter, it's not as light as some custom actions out here, but it's not bad either, it's designed to work, always, and last forever - Japanese craftsmanship.
The factory 2-stage HACT trigger is actually pretty awesome but the lowest you'll get it to is ~2.5lbs unless you clip a coil or 2 (look up videos for Howa HACT trigger modification - it's easy).
Order a Gunbloke Benchrest trigger spring kit for it right now if you haven't already, or just buy the Jard, it's incredible. Hear me now, believe me later.
The pad on my cheek riser is made by Wiebad: https://wiebad.com/mini-stock-pad/
Yep, the Magpul AICS mags will work with the H1500/Bravo (they actually feed silky smooth), but, you can't fuck with them too much, they're a little wonky in that you can't rest the gun on the mag or put much pressure if any against the magazines, or they'll stop feeding correctly. It's a known issue, the Magpul AICS mags are just a little funny like that. Honestly, if Magpul ever fixes them so they work even while being messed with, I'll happily sell all of my metal AICS mags...
Action as good or better than a Rem700 clone?
With respect. If that were even close to true there wouldn't be a market for custom clone actions and they would be run at the pointy end of competition all over.
For a cheap rifle the Howa1500 action is great. Mine served me well then was superseded by better quality.
True up (or don't) a Howa action, change the trigger, spin up a custom barrel, add a quality rail with work done by a quality smith and it will shoot great. No matter what it will still be a Howa.
I'm sorry, but respectfully, I disagree.
I am yet to meet a decent gunsmith who will actually accept money to true a Howa (because there's nothing to gain, they don't need it). Their tolerances are held close enough to where 99.9999% of the time one can pull a bolt out of one action, and stick it in another and go shoot, their headspace is usually +/- .002". There's actually no real good reason (besides demand/popularity) why shouldered prefits aren't offered for 1500's, their tolerances seem to be close enough for them by all accounts that I'm aware of.
For better or worse, yes, for the rifle aftermarket it's kind of a "Remington 700 world", but that's just because that is the design that proliferated the fastest and became most popular and most common - popularity, not design, is why most everything is based off of them still.
At its bones the Howa 1500 is a far better design than an R700 in a myriad ways... I mean, if you only look at how each one designed as far as how bedding is accomplished: a round bottom is obviously harder to make sit and stay in the same spot and is sort of a dumb way of doing it from an engineer's perspective, while a flat-bottom action (like the M70, Accuracy International and Howa 1500), wants to naturally stay in place and makes so much more sense.
Integral recoil lug, 1-piece bolt, M16 extractor, tool-less bayonet bolt disassembly... these are all the features one should expect on any custom action available today, the Howa has had all of that since 1979, 40+ years... (and some actions still don't offer everything the Howa does).
The aftermarket embraced the Remington due to sheer popularity, and the rest is history... but not because the Howa was an inferior design. I have played with and shot just about every single custom action available on the planet, the Howa 1500 hangs with any of them.
I'm moving to a R700-clone action soon, but only so I'm compatible with everything else out there in the aftermarket going forward, and so I can live with controlled-round-feed and a mechanical ejection for a while.. no other reason, not because it's any "better".
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First time Howa and KRG Bravo owner here and I am impressed with both. I purchased my Howa 1500 in .308 a little over a month ago. I liked the Bravo so much, I bought one for a 10/22 build and another for my CZ 457. I bought the Howa used locally and spent about half what I was planning on spending initially on a centerfire bolt gun (was looking at buying a new Bergara HMR Pro for $1600). I have no regrets about the purchase and have enjoyed the rifle so far. It really likes the Federal 168gr SMK ammo.
I've been looking at possibly adding another Howa, in .223 rem.
I've been looking at possibly adding another Howa, in .223 rem.
You can't fuck with 70's-80's Japanese engineering and manufacturing, it's nails.
I really like the Howa 1500 action, not just because they're cheap... they're just simple and solid, nothing fancy about them, built to last.
Probably the best advice I was given when starting to shoot long range rifle was "get a Howa or a Tikka..."
But, IMHO a Howa is actually better than a Tikka for a first rifle because: they're cheaper.
Tikka's are nice, their bolt lift, and how they cycle is a notch above the Howa's (or most anything else, including most $$$ custom 700-clones), but, you'll pay for that. And, as that initial price of the rifle goes up, so do the chances that someone new to this shit will drag their feet on other stuff that matters just as much or more due to $$$, like: putting their money towards ammo and/or reloading shit (more important than the rifle in many ways), getting a real barrel put on (heavier contour), etc. The Tikka's aren't built nearly as well as the Howa's either, using some "metallic" bits instead of real metal here and there, a Howa is almost impossible for a newbie to break or fuck up, a Tikka, not so much...
I really like the Howa 1500 action, not just because they're cheap... they're just simple and solid, nothing fancy about them, built to last.
Probably the best advice I was given when starting to shoot long range rifle was "get a Howa or a Tikka..."
But, IMHO a Howa is actually better than a Tikka for a first rifle because: they're cheaper.
Tikka's are nice, their bolt lift, and how they cycle is a notch above the Howa's (or most anything else, including most $$$ custom 700-clones), but, you'll pay for that. And, as that initial price of the rifle goes up, so do the chances that someone new to this shit will drag their feet on other stuff that matters just as much or more due to $$$, like: putting their money towards ammo and/or reloading shit (more important than the rifle in many ways), getting a real barrel put on (heavier contour), etc. The Tikka's aren't built nearly as well as the Howa's either, using some "metallic" bits instead of real metal here and there, a Howa is almost impossible for a newbie to break or fuck up, a Tikka, not so much...
I had 3 howas and would like to raise the following issue:
Howa is not as susceptible to tuning the same way rem700 clones are. Examples:
If you want an F-class level trigger meaning 10oz or lighter there is only one option: jard trigger. I ordered one from them and jard shipped it the cheapest way (1st class usps). The trigger got lost. I had to back off from major match due to this.
Limited competition stock options: mdt and grs. If you want a real benchrest or f-class stock like kelbly or dolphin, you can forget it.
For prs it's a good choice, for serious target shooting, I would go with a rem700 clone.
Howa is not as susceptible to tuning the same way rem700 clones are. Examples:
If you want an F-class level trigger meaning 10oz or lighter there is only one option: jard trigger. I ordered one from them and jard shipped it the cheapest way (1st class usps). The trigger got lost. I had to back off from major match due to this.
Limited competition stock options: mdt and grs. If you want a real benchrest or f-class stock like kelbly or dolphin, you can forget it.
For prs it's a good choice, for serious target shooting, I would go with a rem700 clone.
You can't blame Howa, Jard, or the USPS because you were an idiot for planning to shoot a major match when you didn't even have your gun dialed-in yet, and were still waiting on parts that you wanted to try.
- (BTW/FWIW, I have a Jard and it's ~6ozs and amazing.)Now, while I agree that there is certainly a far larger aftermarket for R700-pattern stuff than Howa stuff, don't get carried away or blow it out of proportion, everything one needs to run a Howa is out there.
Yeah, Jard is pretty much the only choice for a top-shelf Howa trigger, but with R700's it's not like there's a million choices either, there's like 2: TriggerTech or Bix n' Andy (sure, there may be a few others out there, but the only people who use those are either poor, don't know any better, or are dumb).
And ummm... while spending ~$1000 per 2-day match, and tagging a 10" plate at 1000 yards off a rickety-ass barricade doesn't meet everyone's definition of "serious target shooting", ...there can be absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the word "serious" is not a word used when discussing anything related to Benchrest, F-class, one any other discipline that requires 15 minutes for one to set up a bunch of shit before aiming their stationary gun at the target like a piece of artillery, barely touching their gun when they shoot it.
...and c'mon, nobody wants a Kelbly or Dolphin stock unless they've already ordered a wheelchair and will soon be ordering a casket. Sometimes it's best to put down the rifle and pick up a fishing pole.
(please know all jokes are for a laugh, not meant to be taken as serious...)
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I think you'll find the Howa 1500 is a loose copy of the old L579 Sako rather than a cross between Remington/Winchesters etc....
They have been marketed here in Australia for probably 30-40 years under various names, even Smith and Wesson sold them as a model 1500 many years ago and of course Weatherby Vanguards are basically the same thing now.
Not many years ago it was a toss up between Tikka and Howa as they were similar $, but these days you can buy a Howa barreled action here in 6 or 6.5CM for about a third of the cost of a Tikka varmint, so for a new or cash-strapped shooter it is a no-brainer.
At the end of the day though despite their performance they aren't near as nice as a Tikka or a custom (in my opinion).
They have been marketed here in Australia for probably 30-40 years under various names, even Smith and Wesson sold them as a model 1500 many years ago and of course Weatherby Vanguards are basically the same thing now.
Not many years ago it was a toss up between Tikka and Howa as they were similar $, but these days you can buy a Howa barreled action here in 6 or 6.5CM for about a third of the cost of a Tikka varmint, so for a new or cash-strapped shooter it is a no-brainer.
At the end of the day though despite their performance they aren't near as nice as a Tikka or a custom (in my opinion).
@ceekay1 I assumed 1,5 month would be enough for shipping. One has to be highly unprofessional to ship a trigger overseas via first class international. I had idealistic assumption about US companies being highly professional. Another example could be Forster- they sold me a defective die and when I got back to them they told me I broke it.
Getting back to Howa. People praise Howa's action. I think it's solid, but it's certainly not smooth. It nowhere close to Tikka. Tikka plays in another league. Making the long story short.
I would not buy Howa again due to limited tuning options if you want to compete with the top shooters.
Getting back to Howa. People praise Howa's action. I think it's solid, but it's certainly not smooth. It nowhere close to Tikka. Tikka plays in another league. Making the long story short.
I would not buy Howa again due to limited tuning options if you want to compete with the top shooters.
I have both Tikkas and Howa. By far, the Tikka is smoothest factory action I've ever felt. Howa is not far behind it in my opinion. It feeds and extracts so smooth that I sometimes need to verify it picked up a shell. My Remingtons, CZs, Winchesters, Rugers and Savages never came close.
been waiting on mine. It is set to arrive in 3 days. I’m anxious to test it out on the 6mm Howa.
I went with the apc chassis with the luth stock. Really nice over all, but wish I went with the bravo right off the bat.
Which ever you choose you will have a blast with it. Plenty of fun to tinker with and make your own
Which ever you choose you will have a blast with it. Plenty of fun to tinker with and make your own
Ceekay the MDT ACC and the KRG Bravo are the ones I am trying to decide between for my .223 24" Varmint SS
Here in Oz the KRG is about half the price of the MDT ACC. Is it worth the extra in your opinion?
I was also considering the Bell and Carlson Target/Competition do you have any experience with this stock? (This is also retailing over here for 30% more than the KRG)
I have another Howa in .308 24" heavy fluted in a Bell and Carlson 'Weatherby Style' Stock (i picked this up for next to nothing), with Atlasworx bottom metal. It is an absolute tack driver and is way more capable than I will ever be. To be honest i'm still shocked at how accurate these things are for the money and this is why I just bought another in .223.
The highlighted text is just bullshit.
I like Howa's very much, I rebarreled my sons. I didn't true it, not because it didn't need it (it did), but I had no jig capable of indicating it in my lathe.
The action is actually a bit long and the trigger hanger prevents you from chucking it in a four jaw or a vipers action jig, I needed a much larger jig with a significantly larger diameter recess for the action.
It shoots good, it is a nice rifle, but there is definitely noticeable runout on the action face.
I love the bolt, nice, one piece design that is easy to take down. really decent factory trigger. damn smooth action for the price you pay. Excellent basis for a semi-custom rifle.
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Dude, you're bullshit, you just wrote a whole paragraph/post and didn't demonstrate a damn thing.
Who gives a shit about runout on the action face when all that matters is that the rifle shoots straight.
IMO there are a few things to consider if choosing between a BRAVO or ACC:
First would be feel, the Bravo feels more like a Manners to me, because it's part polymer it tends to soak up some of the vibes from recoil and feel more "dead", it's not a huge difference, but it's there and it's noticeable. The ACC will feel a little sharper and more direct under recoil. Again, not a big difference but it's there, I prefer the KRG/Manner-ish feel. YMMV.
Then there's the weight you want it to end up: I've gotten my Bravo to ~22lbs using the all the weights KRG has available without any extra DIY stuff or tinkering (no wheel weights, lead shot + epoxy, etc), and that's about as heavy as it can go (that's with an MTU contour, a straight/bull contour could go a little heavier of course, but not a lot). An ACC can be made a bunch heavier than a Bravo between internal and external weights, so depending on one's body type or what they're looking for, if they want a super heavy "knocking on 30lbs beast", the ACC is it.
Lastly, concerning cost: try not to think of the Bravo as a $430USD solution, because it's not IMHO.
A Bravo in stock form is a good lightweight hunting platform, that's about it, that's what you "build on". Factor in an additional ~$250-300USD in add-ons and weights to arrive at a Bravo that can hang with the best of them in PRS/NRL form, so realistically it's more like a ~$700USD chassis for that kind of thing (which still isn't bad considering what it'll do and how it'll perform).
IDK anything about the B&C stock so can't help you there, but I'm weary of putting too much money into anything that doesn't let you "grow with it" these days.
The Bravo has spoiled me in some ways, you can bolt on or take off whatever you want, and it can adapt and change over time... I also have a Manners TCS, pretty much as good a stock/chassis as one can get these days, but honestly there are quite few things it could learn from the Bravo. The Manners has most everything one would need, lots of bells and whistles, but it's no where near as adaptable as a Bravo is, no way. Honestly, JMHO here, but having been behind all the KRG's, besides them looking cool, I have no idea why KRG still sells Whiskey's and X-Ray's... the Bravo's are far better IMO.
Youre not in the right here.
Anyone make pre-fits for Howa actions?
Thinking 6mm ARC on their mini action would be the shiznitz
Thinking 6mm ARC on their mini action would be the shiznitz
I deal with precision machined parts (high speed shafts mostly) every day. .0055" of face runout to centerline is not an unusual requirement on many of them for important features like spline pitch diameter runout.
I find it difficult to understand why same is so bad in a static system like a rifle.
I don’t think fdkay was saying that it’s “bad”. He was refuting the claim that there is nothing to gain, there is obviously about 5 thou of truing that could be done on that action face by sac to make it better.
Also, fdkay never said they don’t shoot well or that the juice was worth the squeeze. He was just refuting the claim “there is nothing there to gain”.
I can recommend Crown Ridge Barrel Works: https://www.crownridgebarrelworks.com/shop/barrels/how-mini/how-mini-chambered-to-order/
Anthony there does excellent work and if he's got the contour you're looking for in-stock, order today and chances are he'll get it done and shipped out by tomorrow, he doesn't mess around.
FWIW, ready to spin on for less than $400 shipped, the X-Caliber Howage barrels I've gotten from him have shot every bit as good as anything else I've seen and most of the guys I shoot with are running Proofs, Bartlien's, Krieger's, etc.
Stocks are always a personal choice, but my choice has been the bravo--very traditional styling but also very modular. Howa + Bravo is my personal choice for a first rifle.
I have a Rem 700 308 in a Bravo and a Howa 6.5 in a Bravo. Served me very well as I grow, add junk, remove junk, learn, fail, learn, succeed....
I have a Rem 700 308 in a Bravo and a Howa 6.5 in a Bravo. Served me very well as I grow, add junk, remove junk, learn, fail, learn, succeed....
Well, if you watched the video, you would understand why no one sells pre-fits for them. They obviously aren't held to these tight tolerances you claim.
Look, you were the one who started slinging "bullshits" around, but I'm willing to reign it in a little for discussion's sake.
I watched the video. Mark at SAC is Jedi level for sure. In fact, his relatively recent research/data on bullet-jump has influenced how I go about reloading these days quite a bit.
That said, in the video he prefaces the demonstration by saying he's already spun a truing rod through the action "nicely"... so it's true, or at least true enough for a truing bar, a tool specifically designed to make the determination of whether a action is true or not, to be spun in and out of the action "nicely".
He also says in the comments below the video: "I would say this one was a little bit on the higher end of runout, but still not really surprised about the face being that far out on a production action."
The video shows action face runout, ~0.0055" runout with that particular example, that's it. Does he explain why it's a problem, why it needs to be addressed, or how much of an effect, if any, it has a rifle's accuracy potential? Nope. Just that there's some runout on the action face, regarding which, he's "...not really surprised about the face being that far out on a production action."
If you want to start another thread and argue about how much action face runout matters in a rifle action if it's already been determined that it's true and it's threads are straight and cut properly, be my guest... but I won't be joining you.
Also, are you sure your son's rifle was even a Howa 1500? You said it wouldn't fit in your jigs/lathe and you needed a larger jig due to it's trigger-hanger... but Howa 1500's don't have a trigger-hanger.
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A truing rod is used to indicate the action in the lathe. It has absolutely ZERO to do with the face of the action. It also has nothing to do with thread concentricity.
If you don't think action face has anything to do with how a barrel mates up to the receiver, I don't know what to tell you. You can have a nice, square shoulder with a nice concentric chamber, when you mount it on an action face that has a lot of runout, it will likely affect accuracy, which is why they fucking true action faces.
Yes, I mis spoke. Not a trigger hanger, the tang.
If you don't think action face has anything to do with how a barrel mates up to the receiver, I don't know what to tell you. You can have a nice, square shoulder with a nice concentric chamber, when you mount it on an action face that has a lot of runout, it will likely affect accuracy, which is why they fucking true action faces.
Yes, I mis spoke. Not a trigger hanger, the tang.
Mate thanks for the feedback. Sounds to me like the Bravo is a good place to start. At the price, I really have nothing to lose. If I don’t like it I can move on and try something else.
Has yours been bedded?
Have you got it yet? Keen to hear your opinion
Pretty much any add-on you buy that will work with a Bravo will work with all the Whiskeys and X-Rays out there too, so if down the road you want to try one of those or just sell it all off, you don’t have to worry much about being stuck with it.
I’ve never bedded a Bravo. Never had more than 1/2moa with one, so never really had a reason to bother. Pulling the BA and dropping it back in, usually mine returns to zero or needs a click or two of adjustment, that’s it.
Yeah. It’s all fanboy love.
It’s got nothing to do with the actual experience of burning through 3 barrels and putting ~6000rds through Howa’s in the last 10 months or so, shooting out to 1250 yards a couple times a week.
Guess I’ve just been ignorant, didn’t know my action face being off by a few thousandths has been holding me back
No one fucking said it was holding you back. In fact the exact opposite was said. What was taken issue over was your claim that they couldn’t be improved.Yeah. It’s all fanboy love.
It’s got nothing to do with the actual experience of burning through 3 barrels and putting ~6000rds through Howa’s in the last 10 months or so, shooting out to 1250 yards a couple times a week.
Guess I’ve just been ignorant, didn’t know my action face being off by a few thousandths has been holding me back
Look, I am sorry that I was speaking figuratively when I should have been mindful that inevitably someone would take me to task, taking what I said literally (the Hide is the Hide after all).
I said (paraphrasing) I hadn't met a gunsmith who'd take my money to do anything to a Howa because (and again, paraphrasing because they all said pretty much the same thing) they all felt the Howa's were good enough as-is from the factory to not be worth any time/money spent bothering with improving them.
I don't know why that is so controversial, but seemingly it is.
Sounds to me like the gunsmiths you know don't want to deal with the metric threads or the occasional difficulty in removing the barrel.
Obviously SAC felt like it wasn't a waste of time to true the action face.
Just ordered a Howa 6.5 BA from Brownells today based off of the rave reviews. I'll be dropping it into a Bravo as my other Bravo with Spigot has been fantastic.
Got confirmation yesterday from Legacy Sports that they will be importing Howa mini actions in 6mm ARC Q1 or Q2 of 2021.
What scope, rail, rings you thinking of?
Any indication on what barrel profiles will be offered?
Didn't ask about other barrel profiles.
I was specifically emailing about the HOWA M1500 mini action Carbon Elevate when I asked the question.
I was specifically emailing about the HOWA M1500 mini action Carbon Elevate when I asked the question.
Nightforce 20 moa rail, as far as a scope Im not sure. I'd like to pick up a 4-27 razor, but eurooptic has an Nx8 2-20 which seems like a cool option for about the same price.
I wanted a razor but was a bit out of my price range I reckon I’d go the razor out of the two I ended up going the Bushnell XRS. Still torn between the bravo and MDT ACC
