Advanced Marksmanship Hunter Competition Info?

[axshon]

I've got a .308 Rem 700 SPS Tactical with a 20" barrel. I have an old Bausch and Lomb 4200 Elite scope and pivoting bipod. I use no sand bags or any other supports but the bipod.

I started reloading at the beginning of summer 09 after many years away from the long gun trigger. Served infantry USMC so I'm happy to say I remember most of the basics. I went out on a rainy day 2 weeks ago and fired 11 5-shot groups. I throw out the first (2.4") because the barrel was cold and the last (2.1") because I couldn't focus anymore. All shots were at 100 yds.

All of the remaining groups were 1 inch or less with three groups between .4 and .6 inches. I'm pretty proud of that and I guess it will save me money on targets! I was firing Hornady 150 FMJ/BTs because they were the cheapest BT I could find. 43.3 Gr of IMR4064, WLR Primer and Winchester brass. I found the Rem brass to be less accurate but it was fired at the end of the time on the range so it may be pilot error. I'll start with Remmy brass next time and see how it goes.

The rifle has had 224 rounds through it at this time. When on the bipod the Hougue overmold rubber stock touches the barrel. I know zip about breakdown of this thing so I don't want to fool with it considering the current accuracy I'm getting.

Now that I'm sure I can shoot the stinkin thing I'm switching to Sierra Match 150 and 168's along with CCI BR2 primers.

In looking at other posts I think that going out to 200 yds (max for my local range) will be a better tell of real accuracy.

So now a bunch of questions:
1. Without a chronograph is there a solid way to calculate full down range tragectory of my rounds? I'd love to know I can get 1 moa out to 500-700 yards but right now I couldn't even tell you the hold over for what I'm shooting.

2. What kind of groups can I expect to see in a hunter-class competition? Would I have a snowballs chance?

3. Any recommendations for shoe-string bang-for-buck upgrades to the 700? I'm thinking of adding an adjustable cheek rest and perhaps an adjustable butt plate. Perhaps an SS or WOT scope.

4. While the snow is here are there any recommendations for good tactical and/or marksmanship books? I've got some old sniper manuals from both USMC and Army but they're pretty dry...

Many thanks.

Jim
Baltimore MD

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any recommendations for shoe-string bang-for-buck upgrades to the 700</div></div>

Yes, its called ammo down range, you cant gimic your way to good shooting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Without a chronograph is there a solid way to calculate full down range tragectory of my rounds? I'd love to know I can get 1 moa out to 500-700 yards but right now I couldn't even tell you the hold over for what I'm shooting.</div></div>

Chronographs and ballistic tables are fun to play with. They might get you close, but they are no subsitutes for getting zeros at any other range. Shooting does that.

Regardless of the sub groups a rifle gets at 100 yards or so, when you get to 500 yards or better, its the shooters ability to judge and adjust for conditions. Only rounds down range helps there.

 

[axshon]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

Thanks for the post but that wasn't where my questions were directed. Trigger time is certainly the best way to get better. I've got tons of material for making my own ammo and I get out as often as I can. That's covered.

What I want to know is what the best options are for inexpensive upgrades to a rock-stock Rem 700. In terms of mapping the trajectory, I only have access to 200 yds while I live in MD so I have to make due with what I've got. All the bench time in the world will not get me on paper at 500 yards when I have the opportunity if I have no idea whether my round is still going up or not at the 200 yd mark. Hence the question of whether or not a chrono is the only way to do it.

Thowing bullets at targets will help me hit targets better but I'm partial to knowing more about the math behind what's actually happening.

Close is all I need until I have a place to really play. I fired expert in the Marines every time I went out so I'm aware of adjusting for windage etc. The rest is art and know-how and I look forward to learning it when I have the approriate place to do it. Right now I'm just plinking at my little range and I want to get better at it.

That said, any advice?

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

Trigger job/new trigger. Your new so don't try to get a real light one. I would suggest 3-4 lb pull. A aluminum bedded stock such as B&C would put you in the game for around $350 I would guess. A Badger Bolt knob would be good. Then, waste no more $ on your rifle if it shoots 1 moa or better as it should. The next most important thing is a decent Mil dot scope and mil dot master. With ammo and a data cards you can make with JBM ballistics, I would think your in buisiness until you put serious time and lead down range. I suggest further starting to learn about density altitude and read up on Lindy's posts and website on it. A search on the site should yield those threads. Good shooting!

 

[flyboy]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

Get a take off HS persison or the Bell and Carlson Medleist for $200. Get the Super Sniper in 10X and start shooting. Once you get a load that shoots real well in your rifle, let some of us know. I have the same rifle and have number on just about all my loads and that should get you close enough for 500yds.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In terms of mapping the trajectory.... All the bench time in the world will not get me on paper at 500 yards when I have the opportunity if I have no idea whether my round is still going up or not at the 200 yd mark. Hence the question of whether or not a chrono is the only way to do it.</div></div>

OK Lets talk Math........to answer your question: Normally yes you need a Chronograph. To find bullet drop at a given range, you need the BC of the bullet, (which is easy to find) and the need a starting velocity (Chronograph). What you need to get V2 (velocity at a point down range) You need the BC, V1 (int. velocity) and time of flight.

I suppose, in perfect conditions, you can sight the rifle in at 25 yards, and then shoot it at 25 yard intervils until you get to 200 yards and measure the drop, and try to see if you can compute the drop past 200 yards. I dont know how accurate that would be.

You asked about inexpensive gadgets to help out, why not spend the bucks on a $100 Chrony. Once you have V1, you have lots of options to play with. Piling on a rifle a bunch of crap isnt going to tell you the bullet drop of a bullet coming out of the barrel.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

As for upgrades, keep an eye out in the for sale section for a replacement stock. B&C and H.S. stocks would be a good route and can be had around 200-250 used. You will need a varmint barrel contour for the Tactical model, which is the same as the 5R and PSS barrels. A trigger is an option but is not needed unless you are feeling inconsistencies in the pull weight. As for a scope I would look at the SS simply because it has a long, proven track record of tracking and dependable adjustments.

JBM calculations will help with predicting bullet drop/drift. Look at your load manual for “idea” of possible velocity. Since this is a factory Remington barrel 20” long take about 100 to 150fps off that number and you should be real close to actual velocity. Print out several drop sheets bracketing that educated guess in 25 and 50 FPS above and below that number. When you get to shoot at greater distances see which one is the closest to actual. Using 168 smk as an example from a start velocity of 2475 to 2625 fps, under my current weather conditions at 500 yards the difference between these is about 10” (14.3moa/74.8” drop at 2475fps to 12.4moa/64.9” at 2625fps). This method will easily get your first shots on paper or the target backer.

Have fun fueling your new addiction…

 

[montana3gunner]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

Also, if I'm hearing you right...one of your questions is can you compete in the hunter class with a 1 MOA gun? Based on the competitions I've been in...yes. If your load is 1 MOA out to even 400 yards..you're gun is fine.

If people are shooting better than that, they should move up to the next class...or they are sandbagging. In the comps I've shot in, the hunter class is designed for novices and youth, to get them introduced. Once someone has the basics down, the hope is that they move up.

 

[axshon]

Re: Hunter Competition Info?

5 by 5. Thanks everyone for the info.

I'm a map/math weenie so I think that I'll do the SS 10x first and then take kraigWY's advice and jump in for the chronograph. I'm not much into the cool for the sake of cool thing. I just want to KNOW that when I put a round down range it's going to hit exactly where I want it. So it's time to start in on the match ammo and see where it goes. Next would be the stock since I really like the trigger as it is now. I have an AR with a match trigger and I just don't have the control for it just yet.

Thanks again!

Jim