HVAC Question

[BytorJr]

I'm trying to be preemptive before summer really hits hard. My HVAC is dying a slow death, American Standard. Multiple companies have said same thing:
1) Needs to be 3.5 (company A) or even 4 ton (company B).
2) Return air is 16" and should be either 20" (company A) or 18" company B.
3) Add another register in kitchen/breakfast area
a) Company A wants to replace current 6" ducts with 7" and and another 7" with a 4x10 register.
b) Company B wants to keep 6" ducts and add a 6x12 register with 7" duct.
4) Company A sells Daiken, Company B (Bryant/Carrier).
5) Company A will add a MERV 15 filter system for 1500 more dollars, Company B, MERV 12 included at the air handler.
6) Company A puts 2 new drain pans in, one is an overflow. Not so company B.

Company A's cheapest price is 6K more than Company B. The most expensive from Company B which is full variable speed compressor and fan is only 400 bucks more than than the single stage variable fan from Company A.

Company B's price is more inline with quotes from 2.5 years ago (minus ductwork that nobody picked up on). Roughly $2k/ton. I grew up in a family business that did this type of work; but my father retired 25 years ago and has passed, so I'm completely out of the loop.

Daiken's warranty is unbeatable (12/12) and transferrable. However, I really don't want to be in this house more than 4 more years if at all possible. Is Daiken really 5K+1.5K more quality than Carrier?

 

[tomcatmv]

Lots of interrelated questions here. Some of both A and B recommendations are likely valid but without seeing your actual existing install it's tough for me to say. I'm a retired HVAC professional contractor/engineer. If you want to shoot me a PM I could maybe give you more advice.

 

[MadDuner]

I am waiting on a quote for a 4-ton this morning.
We will see where it goes, but was told my return duct is all wrong and will have to be new.
My dead unit went 28 years with lots of nursing along the way.

 

[P-Squared]

Did they do a Manual J? That determines the heat load. You need this to size the equipment. After that do a Manual D to determine the duct work, and finally a Manual S to select the equipment.

Equipment is equipment, the secret to having comfort is the installation. Your HVAC is NOT a toaster that you just take out of the box and plug in.

We are a Daikin dealer because of the support and the warranties, however we also sell other brands depending on what the customer wants.

 

[jg6.5]

Looks like both companies are pretty much on the same page as far as what is being recommended - within a half ton of each other, within a nominal ductwork size of each other, etc. Point being for one of them to say that the other one is "wrong" would be splitting hairs in my opinion.

In a residential setting, I'm not really convinced that Daiken would be worth the $6,500 premium that you'd be paying. If I were presented these options, I'd just go with the variable speed compressor option from the other guy. If it makes you feel better, you could have him qualify the larger tonnage though. Oversizing A/C can cause its own set of problems, as I'm sure you're aware.

MERV 15 is overkill in my opinion (and certainly not worth $1,500), MERV 12 is more than sufficient in my eyes unless you or family members have God awful allergies or something like that.

As far as condensate overflow, it would matter not to me how that protection is provided - primary/auxiliary pans, cutoff switch, etc. With a cutoff switch, it would at least alert you to something being wrong due to the unit not running when calling for cool. Auxiliary pan could drain off condensate without you ever knowing something was wrong depending on where they drained the aux pan to. Pick your poison.

Disclaimer: just a project manager in the commercial side of this industry, and am more of a plumber than I am an airside guy.

 

[BytorJr]

Did they do a Manual J? That determines the heat load. You need this to size the equipment. After that do a Manual D to determine the duct work, and finally a Manual S to select the equipment.

Equipment is equipment, the secret to having comfort is the installation. Your HVAC is NOT a toaster that you just take out of the box and plug in.

We are a Daikin dealer because of the support and the warranties, however we also sell other brands depending on what the customer wants.

I'm quite sure nobody has actually sized the unit. But, based on my experience in the past I know 3 tons isn't correct. Not with the heat load on the house in the summer. Problem is they base things here on 92 degrees to get the delta of 20. It gets hotter than 92 here A LOT!!!! They really should base it on 100 degrees and a minimum of 45% humidity outdoors; many times closer to 50%. Pretty much same weather as we had growing up in the Ozarks/Ouachitas. One company came out 2-3 years ago and did one of those fancy computer analysis things and it said 2.5 tons...I about ran him off.

I agree the installation is key; that's where I'm struggling here. Having grown up in the business (from 0-25yr), some units "we" put in 25-30 years ago are still running (how I have no idea, but they are). So, I get that you could have the highest quality unit and a crap install and never be happy, vs a cheap unit and great install and be happy.

 

[tomcatmv]

Looks like both companies are pretty much on the same page as far as what is being recommended - within a half ton of each other, within a nominal ductwork size of each other, etc. Point being for one of them to say that the other one is "wrong" would be splitting hairs in my opinion.

In a residential setting, I'm not really convinced that Daiken would be worth the $6,500 premium that you'd be paying. If I were presented these options, I'd just go with the variable speed compressor option from the other guy. If it makes you feel better, you could have him qualify the larger tonnage though. Oversizing A/C can cause its own set of problems, as I'm sure you're aware.

MERV 15 is overkill in my opinion (and certainly not worth $1,500), MERV 12 is more than sufficient in my eyes unless you or family members have God awful allergies or something like that.

As far as condensate overflow, it would matter not to me how that protection is provided - primary/auxiliary pans, cutoff switch, etc. With a cutoff switch, it would at least alert you to something being wrong due to the unit not running when calling for cool. Auxiliary pan could drain off condensate without you ever knowing something was wrong depending on where they drained the aux pan to. Pick your poison.

Disclaimer: just a project manager in the commercial side of this industry, and am more of a plumber than I am an airside guy.

This is pretty good advice IMO. Both Carrier and Daikin are reputable manufacturers and I've installed tons of both (no pun intended) but all the Daikin was mainly large multi-family VRV systems. My current house here in central Texas has a 4 ton Carrier that was installed in 2015. I had to replace the start capacitor in 2019 and just last week had to replace the ECM blower motor (not cheap) but the good thing about the Carrier is that both the compressor and blower motor are variable speed so in theory saves power consumption. I am not really familiar with Daikin stand alone units but it sounds way pricey to me. As far as condensate secondary pans go it would depend on your local code requirements, some jurisdictions require them whether or not you have a condensate cut-off switch or not. If the indoor fan coil is in your attic like mine is I would recommend a secondary pan and a cut-off switch. I have both and was glad I did a couple weeks ago went I went up to check on what was up with our HVAC and found the A-coil frozen into a block of ice because of low/no air flow. As it thawed out it overflowed into the secondary pan.
Pro-tip: if they do mount your new fan coil in a secondary pan make sure they put the treated wood stringer supports under the fan coil housing longitudinally.

 

[mahlv]

Anything variable speed is worth the upgrade I'd say. As was mentioned before, the extra $6500 for merv15 and daikin is probably not worth it. I usually tell my customers that if they're not gonna stay in the home for atleast 7-10yrs, the top tier efficiency is probably not worth it. All the manual j,s, and d is great on paper, but the existing ductwork and the costs associated with making the numbers work perfectly often dictate the size of equipment needed or what can be installed. A simple airflow test with what's in place can tell you if that is really an issue. Return air definitely sounds small.

 

[Peterpan]

first off the prices don’t mean squat unless your comparing apples to apples. is say everyone pricing you a 14 seer condenser? or are some pricing a more expensive 16.5 seer unit or is some pricing a 12 seer unit. does the price include a thermostatic expansion valve or just the bullet type orifice for your metering device? i’ve seen some equipment lately that still have permanent split capacitor condenser fan motors and for the price they were estimated at condenser with ECM motor prices. everyone thinks they want a bigger tonnage Air conditioning system. They want it to form ice crystals on their ass. What people don’t realize is you should have a heat loss he get an estimate done on your home and size the air conditioning accordingly. The only way you control humidity without running a separate dehumidifier is through the runtime of the air conditioner. If you have an oversized air conditioner you will not get the humidity control you will have with a correctly sized air conditioner. I also realize some parts of the country don’t worry about humidity control. However some parts of the country it is important.

you need an honest hvac guy. i would put in the new ac system and runtested it. if when you go to charge it it’s running a low suction saturation and the superheat and sub cooling is off they you may very well need more airflow., which mean more or bigger ductwork.
you need roughly 400 cfm per ton of air conditioning. a 16” round is only good for 1000cfm.

also you don’t need a merv 12 or 15. that’s a joke. esp for $1500 hahaha. unless you have allergies i wouldn’t even run a pleated filter. i’d run a standard 1” fiberglass filter. you need to look into the price of changing one of those merv 15 filters too haha.

 

[TwoRs]

Varible speed systems don’t come in 3.5 ton, typically. 2,3,4 and 5 ton capacity .
Carrier/Bryant Infinity series equipment is top tier. I would pick VS Trane/American Standard equals.
Dealer is one of the most important decisions you can make.
Full Variable speed systems are well worth the extra money, the comfort level and efficiency is incredible.
6500.00 for a Daikin 14 SEER over a Carrier/Bryant VS is a no brainer. VS every time from a reputable dealer.
I would get one more quote.
FYI the industry on average had a 34% increase in equipment in 14 months, it ain’t getting any cheaper!
Good luck

 

[BytorJr]

Varible speed systems don’t come in 3.5 ton, typically. 2,3,4 and 5 ton capacity .
Carrier/Bryant Infinity series equipment is top tier. I would pick VS Trane/American Standard equals.
Dealer is one of the most important decisions you can make.
Full Variable speed systems are well worth the extra money, the comfort level and efficiency is incredible.
6500.00 for a Daikin 14 SEER over a Carrier/Bryant VS is a no brainer. VS every time from a reputable dealer.
I would get one more quote.
FYI the industry on average had a 34% increase in equipment in 14 months, it ain’t getting any cheaper!
Good luck

haha...yes, I'm kicking my own butt for not buying 2 years ago when I figured it was on its way out. I mean, it may last a few more years; but I hate being hot and in winter it's banging the resistance strip a lot.

 

[AllenOne1]

Add insulation and solar screens.

 

[Stevo86]

Varible speed systems don’t come in 3.5 ton, typically. 2,3,4 and 5 ton capacity .
Carrier/Bryant Infinity series equipment is top tier. I would pick VS Trane/American Standard equals.
Dealer is one of the most important decisions you can make.
Full Variable speed systems are well worth the extra money, the comfort level and efficiency is incredible.
6500.00 for a Daikin 14 SEER over a Carrier/Bryant VS is a no brainer. VS every time from a reputable dealer.
I would get one more quote.
FYI the industry on average had a 34% increase in equipment in 14 months, it ain’t getting any cheaper!
Good luck

And supposed to see another 30% increase Jan 1 with the new seer mandate and testing changes

 

[Stevo86]

Download a manual J sheet and you can look up all the coefficients for the house construction. Measure and do the manual j load yourself. Keep in mind when upsizing the return you will need to upsize the grill/return box size or add more returns as well to keep you velocity down where the damn thing doesn’t whine every time it comes on. The duct is just part of it ( manual d ) the Carrier infinity 18 5 stage is a fine piece of equipment I don’t see you getting your money back on the Greenspeed system. Haven’t seen many Daikin units other than Chillers and RTUs and they are very nice pieces of equipment so I assume the residential stuff is just as good. MERV 15 is a waste of money, just get an Aprilaire 1210 MERV 11 and be done. The higher th MERV rating the more restrictive it is. Good luck to you. Be careful tho… ac guys are known to be crooks… go with a reputable company in your area… and that isn’t alway the flashiest biggest company out there !

 

[missed]

What refrigerant are those new units quoted using ? Many are moving to R454b now.

 

[cruze5]

"However, I really don't want to be in this house more than 4 more years if at all possible."

there is no way i would buy the more expensive unit

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

The best warranty for the dollar right after pay back period.
Do you think that spending an additional $5K will ever pay you back in the lifetime of the equipment? It's doubtful.
If the company that installs it goes belly up. Is there another local company that is qualified to service your system? After the last housing boom went bust many companies went out of business also. The current boom is about to pop. So choose your dealer wisely.

 

[Milf Dots]

If one will stay in the home for 6-10 years or so, it makes sense to optimize all equipment, ductwork, and insulation.

If one IS planning on moving within 4-5 yrs, adding insulation is a relatively inexpensive project.

And if possible get the A/C system out of the attic and into the garage, a closet, or basement- because every bit of ambient temp reduction will make it easier for the system to run more efficiently- which will make your house a bit cooler.

I miss the lower pressure r22 systems that gave us colder air and could last 20-30 years. Effing government regs!

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Ummm, how do you manage to put all of the duct work in the closet?

If one will stay in the home for 6-10 years or so, it makes sense to optimize all equipment, ductwork, and insulation.

If one IS planning on moving within 4-5 yrs, adding insulation is a relatively inexpensive project.

And if possible get the A/C system out of the attic and into the garage, a closet, or basement- because every bit of ambient temp reduction will make it easier for the system to run more efficiently- which will make your house a bit cooler.

I miss the lower pressure r22 systems that gave us colder air and could last 20-30 years. Effing government regs!

You do know that there's a product called insulation?

 

[Milf Dots]

Ummm, how do you manage to put all of the duct work in the closet?

You do know that there's a product called insulation?

Typically the chosen closet has enough space to accommodate the supply and return ductwork- often through the closet ceiling.

I mentioned insulation at least twice in my quote. Even well insulated attics are usually hotter than any space in a closet, basement, or attached garage. If that isn't the case in a given installation, then it wouldn't make sense to move the A/C out of the attic.

 

[BytorJr]

If one will stay in the home for 6-10 years or so, it makes sense to optimize all equipment, ductwork, and insulation.

If one IS planning on moving within 4-5 yrs, adding insulation is a relatively inexpensive project.

And if possible get the A/C system out of the attic and into the garage, a closet, or basement- because every bit of ambient temp reduction will make it easier for the system to run more efficiently- which will make your house a bit cooler.

I miss the lower pressure r22 systems that gave us colder air and could last 20-30 years. Effing government regs!

Truth there. All these systems are R-410a. Yes, R-22 was much lower pressure and as a result coils lasted longer - I remember all the problems that happened when they first went to high pressure systems. Nightmare. Carrier in particular was hard hit IIRC.

Keep in mind, my current billing rate is 9.5c/KWH. Cannot say that will stay that way; but TVA state.

 

[Milf Dots]

Truth there. All these systems are R-410a. Yes, R-22 was much lower pressure and as a result coils lasted longer - I remember all the problems that happened when they first went to high pressure systems. Nightmare. Carrier in particular was hard hit IIRC.

Keep in mind, my current billing rate is 9.5c/KWH. Cannot say that will stay that way; but TVA state.

I've been told that modern residential coils are now so thin they can't handle the heat of repair attempts. I don't know if it's true. It appears even the most expensive home appliances and equipment are being manufactured to be disposable, compared to units of just 15 years ago.

 

[Maggot]

I replaced mine 2 years ago. I looked into Daiken but a search showed questionable quality control. Since I knew Id be selling in a few years I went with the best price/ best warranty (10 yrs parts and labor) which in this case was an Amana.

In your case Id go with option B, the carrier. I had a Carrier in my home in Texas and it cooled the place for almost nothing. Their quality is right there with Trane.

As well as doing an analysis of the cooling need, they can also do a test ot the duct system. If youre losing 25 of your air under the house that is a waste.

 

[BytorJr]

Well I've gone overboard on bids, only 1 of which seems too high.

Another company wants to replace the 1" ductboard trunkline with R8 insulated sheet metal tubing and new attic fans. It's a 14.5 SEER unit though. However, he realizes the attic gets super hot and I'm losing a ton of efficiency right there. This would be a Bryant. He did an actual load calc of 3 tons; but as all others says it's should be 3.5 due 3 being on edge of the load. He's the only one that did a load calc. Includes another register in kitchen as well. $12.5K

The other somewhat reasonable bid uses an American Standard, 15 SEER, variable speed blower, but he wants to do no ductwork at all; just rebalance the system (claims the ductboard has dampers, but I'll be damned if I can see the dampers). #12.5K

Then the other wants to use a Trane and put one more register in kitchen, 15 SEER varible speed blower, $12.5K

The cheap guy, will do a new register as well as install an air filter (5" MERV 12) at the air handler for another and 15 SEER unit for 9.5K.

The guy who wants to replace the trunk line seems to be a good conservative, pro-gun, etc, etc. The actual OWNER of the company came to do the estimate. Older bloke.

Getting through the smoke and mirrors is tough on this one.

 

[mahlv]

I am amazed how much of that ductboard shit is used for trunk lines. When it's done expelling fiberglass particles and other dirt/debris from being manufactured, stored, delivered, etc., then you have to lay there at night and wonder what kind of science projects are growing in that open sponge and being fed by humidity contaminants etc. through normal use.

 

[Milf Dots]

I'd go with the first guy but would NOT do the trunkline unless your own research shows a reasonable improvement in thernal efficiency. It's true that every little bit helps, but it's also true that money can be blown chasing contractor promises.

Some of the best money is to insulate the hell out of the attic and rest of home- seal up every tiny hole and crack. Also, optimizing the attic ventilation is smart.

 

[BytorJr]

I am amazed how much of that ductboard shit is used for trunk lines. When it's done expelling fiberglass particles and other dirt/debris from being manufactured, stored, delivered, etc., then you have to lay there at night and wonder what kind of science projects are growing in that open sponge and being fed by humidity contaminants etc. through normal use.

Yeah, I know my carpet is dirty; but that's not exactly why there is always so much dust in the house. I suspect the previous tenents before I bought did NOT change the filter and probably ran that cheap ass fiberglass shit.

 

[BytorJr]

I'd go with the first guy but would NOT do the trunkline unless your own research shows a reasonable improvement in thernal efficiency. It's true that every little bit helps, but it's also true that money can be blown chasing contractor promises.

The ductboard is R4, so technically I'd be R8 and at 2500 bucks, that's really not that much more than one company was quoting me to put 3 7" flex duct into my kitchen (of which only 1 of those registers would be new).

My attic runs about 130-140F on a good day. I'm not really burning that much in HVAC costs (though this winter I had a doozy of a bill due to resistance heat being used all the time).

 

[Maggot]

The living dead arise.

 

[MadDuner]

Hey there, sorry to hear about your HVAC troubles. Those prices do seem a bit ridiculous. I used to live in Israel, and yeah, it gets HOT there. We used to have this one company for appliance repair that was really great, and I wonder if there's something similar where you are.

Interesting first post as a necro...

 

[hlee]

Navigating HVAC upgrades can be quite the conundrum, BytorJr! It's wise to weigh the long-term benefits against the initial investment, especially if you're planning to move in a few years. While Daiken's warranty is impressive, it's essential to consider whether the additional cost aligns with your current needs and future plans. Carrier is a reputable brand, and if the system from Company B meets your home’s requirements, it could be the more pragmatic choice given your circumstances.

Hi did this spammer not get booted with his first post?

 

[Peterpan]

regardless of equipment brand, the warranty
is only as good as your repair service provider.
and on another note fuck carrier. they sold out and moved manufacturing and assembly to mexico years ago. everyone one uses r410a refrigerant, since the government decided for us that r22 is to “harmful” to the ozone. so does carrier, but those cock suckers have the nerve to call it puron haha

 

[n2ishun]

regardless of equipment brand, the warranty
is only as good as your repair service provider.
and on another note fuck carrier. they sold out and moved manufacturing and assembly to mexico years ago. everyone one uses r410a refrigerant, since the government decided for us that r22 is to “harmful” to the ozone. so does carrier, but those cock suckers have the nerve to call it puron haha

Uhhhh.....

R410a being phased out starting Jan, 2023

The #1 HVACR Community

hvac-talk.com

 

[Downtown]

Hi did this spammer not get booted with his first post?

I guess not. Report him again.

 

[Stevo86]

regardless of equipment brand, the warranty
is only as good as your repair service provider.
and on another note fuck carrier. they sold out and moved manufacturing and assembly to mexico years ago. everyone one uses r410a refrigerant, since the government decided for us that r22 is to “harmful” to the ozone. so does carrier, but those cock suckers have the nerve to call it puron haha

they do have one plant there, but everything that’s going in your house is built right here in the USA. I’ve toured 2 of the plants. Carrier is actually one of the better brands out there. And don’t get so butt hurt about refrigerants…. Cuz they r fixing to change again.

 

[Peterpan]

Uhhhh.....

R410a being phased out starting Jan, 2023

The #1 HVACR Community

hvac-talk.com

what’s your point? r404 and r134is going away too