I’m having issues zeroing my rifle

[Bridgebuilder34]

I’m having issues with the grouping of my rifle. I know something is wrong. The gun is a LWRC IC-DI 556. The optic im using is a Steiner T432 prism. I went to the range today with 90 rounds of Norma 233 55 grain FMJ. I was doing a 100 yard zero. I sand bagged the front of the gun. I torqued everything to manufacture spec and put paint pen on all points of movement. I’m not impressed with the groupings.

I’ve had the same problem previously with this exact rifle and optic setup. I first zeroed the rifle with spam can 55 grain Tula and basically had the same thing happened but just with a wider inconsistent spread that was a few inches wider,compared to Norma. With everyone’s experiences what’s going on with my grouping. Im having a consistent wide spread.

 

[FuhQ]

Remember… Up and down is on top… Left and right is on the side…

I’m being sarcastic, but I seriously had to tell a grown man this at the range a couple weeks ago.

He kept talking about his scope getting worse the more the adjusted it on the 100 yard range, but had it hitting good over at the 50 yard side, and it turned out he was twisting the windage to try to adjust the elevation.

Me and my buddy just looked at each other like …

We helped him get it re-zeroed at 100 and he left. Thank God. People like that at the range tend to throw up some red flags, especially when they have nice decked-out guns, but drive POS vehicles. He even had one of those really nice and expensive Russian IR lasers mounted on it.

I know you’re not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but when he’s a [obvious] halfwit redneck driving a $500 POS truck with a $3,500 AR15, and has no idea how to use it, that looks a bit suspect.

As for your rifle, that’s extremely unusual for an LWRC. I’ve had my M6A1 since 2009, and it has always been a tack-driver with anything & everything I’ve fed it, even cheap steel Tula 55gr.

I’d contact LWRC about it. It could be a rare lemon. Usually their QA/QC is one of the best in the industry, but anything man made can have hidden defects or issues. It could be a tolerance-stacking issue, barrel nut torque issue, or even a bad barrel or headspace issue.

 

[Mike Islander]

Check clearance with the handguard and barrel. My M6A2 Stretch made contact on one area. Sanded = better groups.

 

[Maurygold]

change optics and run it. could be bad parallax from the optic

 

[Nik S]

Something that stood out was your 100yd zero with a .556. Unless you are only planning on plinking at 100yds, would suggest researching AR-15 25yd zero, 36yd zero and 50yd zero. You may find a lot more success, enjoyment and versatility.

 

[jetjock07]

Possibly the ammo. Also is the barrel nut torqued properly?

 

[UpSideDown]

You're shooting junk ammo. Pick two good match ammos and go shoot them and see how it does. Bulk 55gr isn't going to tell you anything about the accuracy of your rifle.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

Something that stood out was your 100yd zero with a .556. Unless you are only planning on plinking at 100yds, would suggest researching AR-15 25yd zero, 36yd zero and 50yd zero. You may find a lot more success, enjoyment and versatility.

Directions call for 100 meter zero. 100 yards is what I had access too.

 

[Baron23]

Directions call for 100 meter zero. 100 yards is what I had access too.

You’re missing the point…and what directions?

He was suggesting that you try to zero at a shorter range…might be easier.

But that won’t solve your group size issue.

 

[hafejd30]

100 yards vs 100 meters won’t matter

Change ammo. When you do try some heavier stuff. 55 fmj and that type of cheap ammo shoots exactly like what you see here.

A great gun shoots great with great ammo

A great gun shoots like shit with shit ammo

Start there

 

[Neurotic]

Check if the mount is cracked. The Steiner T series has a pretty low torque spec, and over torquing will crack the mounts.

 

[hafejd30]

Check if the mount is cracked. The Steiner T series has a pretty low torque spec, and over torquing will crack the mounts.

Same for spuhr

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Hand it to someone else there shooting small groups and let them shoot it. It could be you. It hurts to admit it, but sometimes it's the shooter. If you don't shoot ar's for groups quite often, those fundamentals slip away.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

You’re missing the point…and what directions?

He was suggesting that you try to zero at a shorter range…might be easier.

But that won’t solve your group size issue.

The owner’s manual directions. They said 100 meter zero. Would me zeroing at a closer distance fuck up the bdc on the reticle? I tried that previously with the Tula, And same shit. I’m not trying to be confrontational,I’m trying to learn.

 

[hafejd30]

The owner’s manual directions. They said 100 meter zero. Would me zeroing at a closer distance fuck up the bdc on the reticle? I tried that previously with the Tula, And same shit. I’m not trying to be confrontational,I’m trying to learn.

There’s no reason to zero closer if you’re throwing that size groups at 100. Not accurate is not accurate at 30 or 300 yards. Unless it’s a fundamental issue your still not going to be satisfied

 

[Neurotic]

Can also zero that reticle at 50 where the 200m point is...

Edit: the ammo may be holding you back.

 

[Baron23]

The owner’s manual directions. They said 100 meter zero. Would me zeroing at a closer distance fuck up the bdc on the reticle? I tried that previously with the Tula, And same shit. I’m not trying to be confrontational,I’m trying to learn.

Ah, BDC. Got it. and yeah, if your marks are based on 100 yds then yes, my understanding is that’s where it needs to be be.

I don’t do BDC reticle and really know little about them.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

Same for spuhr

Check if the mount is cracked. The Steiner T series has a pretty low torque spec, and over torquing will crack the mounts.

Check if the mount is cracked. The Steiner T series has a pretty low torque spec, and over torquing will crack the mounts.

3.5 Nm=30 “LBs no locite. I made a thread here to confirm. I’ll inspect for cracks on the optic later.

 

[MadDuner]

Some optics are very unforgiving when it comes to getting your eyeball in the same position behind the scope for every shot.

 

[nn8734]

The owner’s manual directions. They said 100 meter zero. Would me zeroing at a closer distance fuck up the bdc on the reticle? I tried that previously with the Tula, And same shit. I’m not trying to be confrontational,I’m trying to learn.

What other ammo have you shot apart from what you mentioned?

Do you reload?

If so, work up a load using a bullet known to perform across most rifles with at least half decent barrels like the 77smk, hornady 75 bthp match, 69 smk, etc.

If not, buy black hills 77g or something of similar quality. Then zero at 25m or 50m and if your groups are tight move it out to 100m.

If the rifle still wont shoot consistent and you still have issues w/zeroing with that ammo, the problem is elsewhere

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

There’s no reason to zero closer if you’re throwing that size groups at 100. Not accurate is not accurate at 30 or 300 yards. Unless it’s a fundamental issue your still not going to be satisfied

Here’s some targets at 25 and 50 yards. I started zeroing at 25 then I jumped to 50 yards. This was with Tula. At that close of range I’d expect rounds to be a lot tighter. Would you be satisfied with those grouping?

 

[hafejd30]

Here’s some targets at 25 and 50 yards. I started zeroing at 25 then I jumped to 50 yards. This was with Tula. At that close of range I’d expect rounds to be a lot tighter. Would you be satisfied with those grouping?

There’s no pics

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

There’s no pics

It’s updated

 

[hafejd30]

It’s updated

It depends

Satisfied with that ammo performing in that way…..yes

That gun performing in that way with good ammo…no

 

[nn8734]

Here’s some targets at 25 and 50 yards. I started zeroing at 25 then I jumped to 50 yards. This was with Tula. At that close of range I’d expect rounds to be a lot tighter. Would you be satisfied with those grouping?

See post 20 - if the answers to both my questions are "No" then buy or develop better ammunition and re-test.

 

[UpSideDown]

Don't worry about zeroing at different distances - that advice made no sense anyways. Changing what range you zero at will not fix precision problems. If you weren't even hitting the paper, then moving closer to get on paper is an option, but you're already hitting the paper and close to zero'd. Just grab some known, good quality ammo and try it again, with a really solid shooting platform. A good quality front bipod, good quality rear bag, a known good shooter, and known good ammo are all needed to tell you if the gun or optic are the problem.

 

[FuhQ]

Hand it to someone else there shooting small groups and let them shoot it. It could be you. It hurts to admit it, but sometimes it's the shooter. If you don't shoot ar's for groups quite often, those fundamentals slip away.

Not to mention, shooting an AR in a precision manner is a totally different animal than a bolt gun. I've shot precision bolt guns my whole life, but It took me a lot of practice to get really good at shooting groups with an AR consistently. For me, it was hard getting used to the bore axis being so much higher than the grip, and then the scope being even higher than that, versus a bolt gun, where everything is all right there in a nearly straight line.

 

[Ichi]

You can use a target made for shooting at 25 yards to provide a 100 yard zero.

https://www.dochub.com/fillable-form/7748-25-yard-zero-target-printable

 

[Mike Islander]

You either shoot like hell or your rifle does.

1. Let someone else who can shoot try. If good, look in the mirror.
2. If others cannot shoot it well, change ammo to known accurate stock, like Blackhills 77 TMK. If still not good, change scopes.
- NOTE: When changing scope use Formidilosus from Rokslide.com method of cleaning and mounting everything.
3. If not good with new scope, check clearance between barrel and handguard.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

What other ammo have you shot apart from what you mentioned?

Do you reload?

If so, work up a load using a bullet known to perform across most rifles with at least half decent barrels like the 77smk, hornady 75 bthp match, 69 smk, etc.

If not, buy black hills 77g or something of similar quality. Then zero at 25m or 50m and if your groups are tight move it out to 100m.

If the rifle still wont shoot consistent and you still have issues w/zeroing with that ammo, the problem is elsewhere

I’ve shot just Tula and Norma. That’s all I have access to currently for the time being. I’m a month out from getting Lake city
M193, 55gr. I’m in CA so what I have access to is limited. I also don’t reload.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

Don't worry about zeroing at different distances - that advice made no sense anyways. Changing what range you zero at will not fix precision problems. If you weren't even hitting the paper, then moving closer to get on paper is an option, but you're already hitting the paper and close to zero'd. Just grab some known, good quality ammo and try it again, with a really solid shooting platform. A good quality front bipod, good quality rear bag, a known good shooter, and known good ammo are all needed to tell you if the gun or optic are the problem.

What good quality shooting bags do you recommend? This is what I’m using.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

You either shoot like hell or your rifle does.

1. Let someone else who can shoot try. If good, look in the mirror.
2. If others cannot shoot it well, change ammo to known accurate stock, like Blackhills 77 TMK. If still not good, change scopes.
- NOTE: When changing scope use Formidilosus from Rokslide.com method of cleaning and mounting everything.
3. If not good with new scope, check clearance between barrel and handguard.

I’m going to try and locate better ammo. If the same thing happens again with better ammo then I’m going to look in the mirror. After that I’ll look at the weapon and optic.

 

[nn8734]

I’ve shot just Tula and Norma. That’s all I have access to currently for the time being. I’m a month out from getting Lake city
M193, 55gr. I’m in CA so what I have access to is limited. I also don’t reload.

IMI XM193 5.56 is also decent if you can get your hands on that as well. The lake city stuff should print decent...1.5-2 moa for that stuff at 100 is what you can expect. I believe Army standard is 3 moa for rack grade rifle/ammo.

For the purpose of ruling in or out something other than the ammo, buy Black Hills 77g OTM 5.56 (NOT .223 - you have a 5.56 NATO chamber) and bring another, known good shooter with you just to be sure. If it doesnt group well with you and your buddy behind the gun, start looking at other things. Without good ammo, you'll never know. That rifle with a competent shooter behind it should be capable of 1-1.5 moa or better at 100m...

 

[UpSideDown]

What good quality shooting bags do you recommend? This is what I’m using.

Your picture didn't load. Any kind of good front and rear support will make a load of difference, and - not trying to be a jerk, but wanting to help - if you're asking this question then you really need to get a very proficient gas-gun shooter to shoot this gun and to rule yourself out as the culprit. A short picatinny/1913 rail on the front of the gun with a properly loaded bipod, and any good rear bag (TAB gear, armageddon, etc.) will tell you what's up with this gun.

Find a known good gas-gun shooter to show you. Or at least someone who is a good bolt action shooter. Someone who shoots competitively will be a good start because people tend to lose the 'yeah I'm a great shooter' mentality after they end up at the very bottom of the totem pole on their first match and realize what a good shooter really is.

Get some quality ammo and try it. Maybe to keep the list short, try some Federal Gold Medal Match, you should be able to find that anywhere. You can get any grain weight you want, but 77gr is ideal.

 

[n2ishun]

It's the singer, not the song.

 

[Bridgebuilder34]

Your picture didn't load. Any kind of good front and rear support will make a load of difference, and - not trying to be a jerk, but wanting to help - if you're asking this question then you really need to get a very proficient gas-gun shooter to shoot this gun and to rule yourself out as the culprit. A short picatinny/1913 rail on the front of the gun with a properly loaded bipod, and any good rear bag (TAB gear, armageddon, etc.) will tell you what's up with this gun.

Find a known good gas-gun shooter to show you. Or at least someone who is a good bolt action shooter. Someone who shoots competitively will be a good start because people tend to lose the 'yeah I'm a great shooter' mentality after they end up at the very bottom of the totem pole on their first match and realize what a good shooter really is.

Get some quality ammo and try it. Maybe to keep the list short, try some Federal Gold Medal Match, you should be able to find that anywhere. You can get any grain weight you want, but 77gr is ideal.

 

[338dude]

Hand it to someone else there shooting small groups and let them shoot it. It could be you. It hurts to admit it, but sometimes it's the shooter. If you don't shoot ar's for groups quite often, those fundamentals slip away.

Or when you get a hunting partner and he encourages you to start shooting an AR, which makes total sense for the quarry we were hunting, but it is a completely different animal than a bolt gun.