Does anyone use one of these for dry fire/prs practice? I have been looking at them and wondering if there worth it, or is it one of those personal preference things. Thanks for any insight or info.
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I use the D.F.A.T from DST Precision. Troy is one of the nicest guys in the industry. Give him a call and he'll get you set up.
Yes, the IDTS is awesome - made me a much better shooter last year. I like the fact that it has the targets numbered so you can lay out a course of fire and run a timer. As well as it has the same range at 4 heights so you can work different heights of a barricade without having to aim way up or down.
Thanks everyone for the great info. I'll check out the DFAT system as well.
I made the mistake of buying D.F.A.T and realized in minutes of opening the box that it is useless to me, and probably most of you.
The device limits the focusing distance to just a few feet. Unless you plan to perform dry fire practice in your bathroom or across the dinner table, that is just too short.
I attempted to return the bloody thing 30 minutes after arrival but the dealer refused based on an obscure pandemic policy statement burred in his web site. Since the policy was there, even the credit card company refused to protect me.
So ya, I have this stupid thing and no use for it whatsoever.
The concept of the product is sound however the lenses are not idealized for the practical use of such a product.
If the operating distance was longer, then it would be useful, but I suspect the volume of sales does not justify efforts to appropriately select lenses.
The minimum focus distance should be the current maximum focus distance, then it might have a chance. An actual focus distance range between 5 and 15 yards would be ideal, but the current offering will not focus past 5 yards at most.
I do not recommend that anyone buys such a product until they address the problem I noted here.
The device limits the focusing distance to just a few feet. Unless you plan to perform dry fire practice in your bathroom or across the dinner table, that is just too short.
I attempted to return the bloody thing 30 minutes after arrival but the dealer refused based on an obscure pandemic policy statement burred in his web site. Since the policy was there, even the credit card company refused to protect me.
So ya, I have this stupid thing and no use for it whatsoever.
The concept of the product is sound however the lenses are not idealized for the practical use of such a product.
If the operating distance was longer, then it would be useful, but I suspect the volume of sales does not justify efforts to appropriately select lenses.
The minimum focus distance should be the current maximum focus distance, then it might have a chance. An actual focus distance range between 5 and 15 yards would be ideal, but the current offering will not focus past 5 yards at most.
I do not recommend that anyone buys such a product until they address the problem I noted here.
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Not familiar with the DFAT setup.
I set up the IDTS 12ish, maybe 15' away... throw a couple LED spot lights on it and go.
Practice off a 4' step ladder, barricade, chair, prone, etc.
I will say if you buy his (IDTS) system, buy the outer lens cap in the largest size you need, and if/where needed size down for your other scope bells that are smaller using some foam, weatherstripping, etc. for the smaller scopes.
I set up the IDTS 12ish, maybe 15' away... throw a couple LED spot lights on it and go.
Practice off a 4' step ladder, barricade, chair, prone, etc.
I will say if you buy his (IDTS) system, buy the outer lens cap in the largest size you need, and if/where needed size down for your other scope bells that are smaller using some foam, weatherstripping, etc. for the smaller scopes.
I dont know about you but it's a lot easier to find an 11-15ft space to practice in my house than 15 yards.
First of all... I said... An actual focus distance range between 5 and 15 yards would be ideal, but the current offering will not focus past 5 yards at most.
How can you do positional practice when the muzzle of the gun is almost touching your target?
5 yards max is just plain stupid.
I do most of my practice in my house from 10 yards and this is the smallest of my last 3 houses.
Hey man if it doesn't work for you that's fine. Worked for me for the last 3 or 4 years just fine. Not sure what to tell you.
I think the 12' advertised focus distance is about perfect. How the fuck is your barrel running into the target when it's 5 yards away?!
180 inch barrel for extra velocity.
It’s hard to get a decent picture through a scope with a cell phone but I’m sure you get the idea. Target and reticle are in focus together in person. I like mine, bought it off a member here. 
12 feet max is not practicing, that's pretending.
BTW, 12 feet is 4 yards... Even worse. That's the maximum distance!!!... So you can actually pretend to practice even closer than 12 feet... Go for it.
You know not of what you speak. It’s not like you are trying to shoot a 1” dot at 12 feet, the targets are super small and calibrated to be certain moa at that distance. See my pics posted above, that’s a 3moa tall prairie dog on 20x through a IDTS lens. If you wiggle any at all, you are off the target. That’s also one of the largest targets on the sheet.
Man I guess I should just give back all my trophies since all that practice, I mean pretending, to build and break positions quickly at 4' was all for nothing.
I’ve got the DFAT and my wife bought me the roll up target for an Xmas gift.
Works great for practicing in the basement or living room.
I’m pretty sure there are downloadable targets on their website so you can change up the scenery also.
Works great for practicing in the basement or living room.
I’m pretty sure there are downloadable targets on their website so you can change up the scenery also.
Now this all makes sense. You're the guy that said using a kestrel and other electronics at matches takes talent out of shooting. So of course using the dfat is pretending to practice in your eyes. I can only imagine how fun of a squadmate you'd be at a match
Correct. I remember the days before computers were used in the workplace where individual competence, dedication and intelligence actually made a difference. These days morons can use software to get the answers that once required brains. That negates the value of high performance employees and drives wages down. That is not good progress.Now this all makes sense. You're the guy that said using a kestrel and other electronics at matches takes talent out of shooting. So of course using the dfat is pretending to practice in your eyes. I can only imagine how fun of a squadmate you'd be at a match
If you cant see how the kestrel parallels to shooting sports, well that's just sad on you. It gives stupid people a free ride upon the shoulders of giants who did the real work.
By that kind of mindset, we may as well go back to using slingshots or throwing rocks. I also competed before kestrels were a thing. But most want fast and efficient ways of obtaining a firing solution and the kestrel is another tool in the tool box. As are these dry firing aids. They are no replacement for range time for obvious reasons. Just another tool to practice building stable positions and getting good trigger breaks. Again, not a replacement but more of a supplement.
I love the IDTS. I run the same set up as BigJohn141 with a 5' aluminum ladder for all the firing positions.
It works great.
It works great.
Well if it works for you have fun with it.
Personally I see no value to such a device because it does not provide any feedback. That absence of feedback will reinforce a false sense of achievement because it only provides you with an aiming point, and no evidence of the quality of your shot. You don't know if you pulled a shot or if cant caused you to throw the shot off to the side. At such a close distance the angular error is hard to see making it even more difficult to evaluate your performance.
If you want feedback there is no substitute for actual shooting. You would be far better off with a high quality PCP air rifle and shoot that in the basement. That will provide real feedback. If you pull the shot you will see it. If you cant the rifle you will see it. A Weirauch HW100 with a solid steel barrel is surely more expensive than a DFAT, but far more beneficial as a learning tool. With good pellets you can shoot groups around 0.020" or better from 10 yards. If the quality of your shot is not perfect, the evidence will be clear on the target.
then why the fuck did you buy it?
go tie your rifle to a metal stake bipod or rock or whatever and stfu trashing a product that works and works well AS ADVERTISED
I’ll be sad and stupid and hitting long range targets, while you’re flipping through your DOPE book.
Thank you for everyone's "opinions" i love how emotional some get on the hide. I went with the IDTS, already have the ladder and look forward to some better dry fire practice then im currently doing.
Sucks getting left behind doesn't it?
It was only a matter of time before you outed yourself as an idiot who has no fucking clue about how to use dry fire effectively and the value of shot calling from reticle movement was when the trigger broke.
The even bigger value of dry fire (both for rifle and pistol shooters) comes from getting better at weapon manipulations and position entry, building, and exits (in the case of pistol shooting)
I can assure you that only one here who knows less than what he thinks he does is.......YOU.
Right, now that we've got that drama out of the way, what are the real pros and cons of the IDTS vs the DFAT systems?
From memory, Frank has recommended IDTS, while Jacob sells DFAT ...
From memory, Frank has recommended IDTS, while Jacob sells DFAT ...
- How do they differ?
- Is one quicker or easier to install and remove than the other?
- What are the limitations of each?
- Does one have a better objective adapter? Why?
- What about the target packages - the roll-up banner system of the IDTS vs the smaller targets of the DFAT?
- And so on ...
I use the roll up banner system with the DFAT with no issues so I don’t believe there are any compatibility issues.
Looking at the IDTS lens, I looks identical to the DFAT.
The DFAT looks to come with a scope cap while the IDTS I believe you have to provide your own.
Which, if you already are running caps, and most of us are, it’s not an issue.
Install for both would be the same.
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100% of the top precision rifle trainers advise more dry fire than live fire. As well as most or all advocate an indoor system such as the DFAT.
I encourage everyone reading who isn’t sure to weigh that against the single poster above and make an educated decision.
I encourage everyone reading who isn’t sure to weigh that against the single poster above and make an educated decision.
This!
And there are also some variables that can only be definitively monitored through dry fire. Some things that can get lost in the noise of live fire.
I own both the DFAT and the IDTS and in my opinion the IDTS is far better. I run mine in the storage area of my basement. Got a cheap spot light off Amazon and a few little props that I use to practice off of. Try to get 20-30 minutes per night. Has greatly improved my performance.
Can you offer some specifics on why you feel the IDTS is better? I’ll finally be picking one of these systems up after we’re settled from the move and am curious what the differences are in the minds of end-users. Thanks!
It’s has same target range card in 4 different levels which makes it nice when you’re transitioning from various heights. The DFAT you print off range cards on a standard 8x11 piece of paper and then stick to your wall. The DFAT is much more cost effective but the IDTS is just a lot better.
Anyone who doesn't see the benefit of dry fire loses all credibility as a knowledgeable contributor to this subject.
The benefits are legion. Speaking for myself, I went from timing out at Pro Series matches on multiple stages throughout the weekend, to rarely timing out. At last years Finale in New Mexico I only timed out on one stage.
As pointed out above, getting in and out of positions and getting a good break on your target is invaluable. You will get more rounds, downrange with accuracy. Dry fire will teach you that.
You get zero points for the shots you never fire.
The benefits are legion. Speaking for myself, I went from timing out at Pro Series matches on multiple stages throughout the weekend, to rarely timing out. At last years Finale in New Mexico I only timed out on one stage.
As pointed out above, getting in and out of positions and getting a good break on your target is invaluable. You will get more rounds, downrange with accuracy. Dry fire will teach you that.
You get zero points for the shots you never fire.
The last thing I would add to the training is a cheap count down timer so you have a good feeling of how long stages will be. I have one on my phone for working out that will count you down to begin and then start the regular timer. The IDTS is nice because it has a lot of targets that are nice and spread out so you are panning quite a bit. You have to actually scan and find the correct target before engaging. You could make a simulated stage and mark a generic dope and wind call for each so it will be closer to normal conditions. Now I just need a large fan to simulate the wind pushing the rifle around lol.
Crush-It timer (no affiliation other than I own one and would buy another / recommend for time management)
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The biggest hangup people have when comparing the two is the target cards or the screen, personally I prefer the target cards as I can switch them out being they have a large seletion. I just stick them stacked 4-5 high on a peice of poster board that is tacked to the wall. Many times I don't even use them but opt to pull up a downloadable target card and put it on my laptop screen or TV. The lenses themselves both work exactly the same and share the identical approximate 11-13ish foot focus range. The newer Gen 2 DFAT ones are nice, well made camera grade machining and better IMO because they are adaptable for all the scopes you own as the screw into the sunshade threads and reduce to the main 37mm module. You just have to have the correct adapter ring which are $10 for each extra one.
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I have both the DFat and the IDTS
Both are great
They both allow for “close focus”
The lense “adaptor” can be used with either target system.
You really cannot go wrong with either system.
Both are great
They both allow for “close focus”
The lense “adaptor” can be used with either target system.
You really cannot go wrong with either system.
I have the older universal lens with my IDTS. I like the looks of the dfat HD, just need to see if the XTR pro is possibly the same thread as a Steiner model.
Not sure how yours works. My IDTS is just a plastic lens cap that slides over the end. No threads needed.
Mine is the same. It’s just a lens that I have stuck inside the cap that came with the pro. The gen 2 dfat HD is a thread on.
It is dollar for dollar the most valuable piece of kit I own. It's is the only thing I own that will never be up for sale.
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So just made this video on my basement range for those wondering what it looks like. All targets are 2 moa except the second smaller one which is 1.5 moa. Scope on roughly 12.5x just because. Black bars are from phone Skope camera mount. Of course the reticle and targets are clear in person. Still need to master the art of cell phone through a scope and YouTube quality 
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So just made this video on my basement range for those wondering what it looks like. All targets are 2 moa except the second smaller one which is 1.5 moa. Scope on roughly 12.5x just because. Black bars are from phone Skope camera mount. Of course the reticle and targets are clear in person. Still need to master the art of cell phone through a scope and YouTube quality
IMPACT!!!
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