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If this works..........

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
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    29,203
    Virginia
    By JAY LINDSAY, Associated Press Jay Lindsay, Associated Press – Sun Feb 27, 5:09 pm ET
    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A Massachusetts biotechnology company says it can produce the fuel that runs Jaguars and jet engines using the same ingredients that make grass grow.

    Joule Unlimited has invented a genetically-engineered organism that it says simply secretes diesel fuel or ethanol wherever it finds sunlight, water and carbon dioxide.

    The Cambridge, Mass.-based company says it can manipulate the organism to produce the renewable fuels on demand at unprecedented rates, and can do it in facilities large and small at costs comparable to the cheapest fossil fuels.

    What can it mean? No less than "energy independence," Joule's web site tells the world, even if the world's not quite convinced.

    "We make some lofty claims, all of which we believe, all which we've validated, all of which we've shown to investors," said Joule chief executive Bill Sims.

    "If we're half right, this revolutionizes the world's largest industry, which is the oil and gas industry," he said. "And if we're right, there's no reason why this technology can't change the world."

    The doing, though, isn't quite done, and there's skepticism Joule can live up to its promises.

    National Renewable Energy Laboratory scientist Philip Pienkos said Joule's technology is exciting but unproven, and their claims of efficiency are undercut by difficulties they could have just collecting the fuel their organism is producing.

    Timothy Donohue, director of the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says Joule must demonstrate its technology on a broad scale.

    Perhaps it can work, but "the four letter word that's the biggest stumbling block is whether it `will' work," Donohue said. "There are really good ideas that fail during scale up."

    Sims said he knows "there's always skeptics for breakthrough technologies."

    "And they can ride home on their horse and use their abacus to calculate their checkbook balance," he said.

    Joule was founded in 2007. In the last year, it's roughly doubled its employees to 70, closed a $30 million second round of private funding in April and added John Podesta, former White House chief of staff under President Bill Clinton, to its board of directors.

    The company worked in "stealth mode" for a couple years before it recently began revealing more about what it was doing, including with a patent for its cyanobacterium last year. This month, it released a peer-reviewed paper it says backs its claims.

    Work to create fuel from solar energy has been done for decades, such as by making ethanol from corn or extracting fuel from algae. But Joule says they've eliminated the middleman that's makes producing biofuels on a large scale so costly.

    That middleman is the "biomass," such as the untold tons of corn or algae that must be grown, harvested and destroyed to extract a fuel that still must be treated and refined to be used. Joule says its organisms secrete a completed product, already identical to diesel fuel or ethanol, then live on to keep producing it at remarkable rates.

    Joule claims, for instance, that its cyanobacterium can produce 15,000 gallons of diesel full per acre annually, over four times more than the most efficient algal process for making fuel. And they say they can do it at $30 a barrel.

    A key for Joule is the cyanobacterium it chose, which is found everywhere and is less complex than algae, so it's easier to genetically manipulate, said biologist Dan Robertson, Joule's top scientist.

    The organisms are engineered to take in sunlight and carbon dioxide, then produce and secrete ethanol or hydrocarbons — the basis of various fuels, such as diesel — as a byproduct of photosynthesis.

    The company envisions building facilities near power plants and consuming their waste carbon dioxide, so their cyanobacteria can reduce carbon emissions while they're at it.

    The flat, solar-panel style "bioreactors" that house the cyanobacterium are modules, meaning they can build arrays at facilities as large or small as land allows, the company says. The thin, grooved panels are designed for maximum light absorption, and also so Joule can efficiently collect the fuel the bacteria secrete.

    Recovering the fuel is where Joule could find significant problems, said Pienkos, the NREL scientist, who is also principal investigator on a Department of Energy-funded project with Algenol, a Joule competitor that makes ethanol and is one of the handful of companies that also bypass biomass.

    Pienkos said his calculations, based on information in Joule's recent paper, indicate that though they eliminate biomass problems, their technology leaves relatively small amounts of fuel in relatively large amounts of water, producing a sort of "sheen." They may not be dealing with biomass, but the company is facing complicated "engineering issues" in order to recover large amounts of its fuel efficiently, he said.

    "I think they're trading one set of problems for another," Pienkos said.

    Success or failure for Joule comes soon enough. The company plans to break ground on a 10-acre demonstration facility this year, and Sims says they could be operating commercially in less than two years.

    Robertson talks wistfully about the day he'll hop into the Ferrari he doesn't have, fill it with Joule fuel and gun the engine in an undeniable demonstration of the power and reality of Joule's ideas. Later, after leading a visitor on a tour of the labs, Robertson comes upon a poster of a sports car on an office wall, and it reminds him of the success he's convinced is coming. He motions to the picture.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    So they have an organism that eats sunlight and CO2, and shits diesel fuel.......
    cool.gif
    And there is a joke in there somewhere......

    Of course if it sounds too good to be true, it's probably not.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    A friend of mine has been seriously looking into buying a 'crop' from them. That's their business model supply the cyano and you keep them alive and irritated (kerosene like fuel is a stress response). I feel like that's a very old article though because he's been talking to them for at least a year now or maybe they republished it for new press coverage or something. Either way it sounds like it's doing better than that article lays out.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: good old lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Id that works can I buy me a small "crop"? </div></div>

    We'll it's pretty involved without going into investors and other details and shit you're basically looking at a few million just in brick and mortar costs and location is key.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    Yes, and what happens when this organism escapes into the open environment?
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, and what happens when this organism escapes into the open environment? </div></div>


    It takes a small miracle to keep them alive in the artificial environment and the cyano wouldn't survive without the exacting conditions which simply don't exist in nature. So their jail break to nature means their demise. The cyano that we're talking about was created in a lab and need that lab type environment to live.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, and what happens when this organism escapes into the open environment? </div></div>

    To paraphrase Jorma Kaukonen...."I dont care if my lettuce stinks, as long as my gas is cheap"?

    No more dependence on Foriegn Oil"....

    We'll have a slick to shame the Deepwater Horizon and will be floating in (petro)dollars?

    If you travel the interstate highways much youll be right at home....just learn to breathe deisel fumes.
    sick.gif
     
    Re: If this works..........

    "Life finds a way..."

    Actually, I'm for it.

    Fossil resources are finite, and the smoke stack/exhaust pipe is the wrong destination for those resources. They are inseparably critical to all sorts of synthetic materials manufacturing processes which make modern life possible.

    When the wells run dry, there's a lot more at stake than just horsepower.

    Greg
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, and what happens when this organism escapes into the open environment?</div></div>

    Scare the shit out of it and throw a match its way....problem solved! hehe
     
    Re: If this works..........

    Future Headlines:

    3 months - Exxon-Mobil buys Cambridge based energy company Joule for $6 billion.

    6 months - Exxon-Mobil abandons alternative energy project citing inability to produce on a large scale and cost ineffectiveness.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Life finds a way..."

    Actually, I'm for it.
    </div></div>

    Well, the conditions necessary for this strain simply don't exist in nature. So if this cyano were to find a way out and subsequently survive it would be surviving as a different animal. I.e. it would have to evolve into a whole new animal and that strain wouldn't make kerosene but might make chocolate milk or peanut butter. See the very evolution needed to survive would necessarily change it's waste products as well.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to find an organism which will secrete single-malt Scotch. I can use that product to trade for fuel and everything else.

    </div></div>

    Well, the alcohol in scotch is an organism's by-product. So you're half way there.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to find an organism which will secrete single-malt Scotch. I can use that product to trade for fuel and everything else.

    </div></div>

    Lindy, have you been consuming some of the aforementioned?
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Future Headlines:

    3 months - Exxon-Mobil buys Cambridge based energy company Joule for $6 billion.

    6 months - Exxon-Mobil abandons alternative energy project citing inability to produce on a large scale and cost ineffectiveness. </div></div>

    I usually dont agree with most of Tuckers views, but hes onto something here.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    in 2006 we used, just usa 174,930,000,000,000 gallons of fuel

    so if it takes 1 acre to produce 15000gallons of fuel, we would need to put

    11,662,000,000 acres into production to be completly away from fossil fuel

    There are only 2,300,000,000 acres inside the USA, TOTAL. So to me this little bug isnt gonna solve anything.

    All it will do is drive up the price of food. Take MORE land away from crop/meat production. And end up costing us more money in the long run.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">in 2006 we used, just usa 174,930,000,000,000 gallons of fuel

    so if it takes 1 acre to produce 15000gallons of fuel, we would need to put

    11,662,000,000 acres into production to be completly away from fossil fuel

    There are only 2,300,000,000 acres inside the USA, TOTAL. So to me this little bug isnt gonna solve anything.

    All it will do is drive up the price of food. Take MORE land away from crop/meat production. And end up costing us more money in the long run. </div></div>

    Looks like we need to take over a country with more acreage. Watch out Canada!
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    All it will do is drive up the price of food. Take MORE land away from crop/meat production. And end up costing us more money in the long run. </div></div>

    Anyone who thinks this is the answer to any fuel problem is an idiot. However, it is a money making venture (that's the point), especially since much of the overhead is federally subsidized, you know since it's "green" and the govm't has a hard-on for bad science.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    All it will do is drive up the price of food. Take MORE land away from crop/meat production. And end up costing us more money in the long run. </div></div>

    Anyone who thinks this is the answer to any fuel problem is an idiot. However, it is a money making venture (that's the point), especially since much of the overhead is federally subsidized, you know since it's "green" and the govm't has a hard-on for bad science. </div></div>

    Are you saying Im an idiot, because I think it will drive up food prices? Or are you saying anyone who thinks this bug is a good idea, is an idiot.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    All it will do is drive up the price of food. Take MORE land away from crop/meat production. And end up costing us more money in the long run. </div></div>

    Anyone who thinks this is the answer to any fuel problem is an idiot. However, it is a money making venture (that's the point), especially since much of the overhead is federally subsidized, you know since it's "green" and the govm't has a hard-on for bad science. </div></div>

    Are you saying Im an idiot, because I think it will drive up food prices? Or are you saying anyone who thinks this bug is a good idea, is an idiot. </div></div>

    Nether, I was agreeing with you saying that this cyano method of producing fuel isn't going to solve any fuel problems. That's why I went into how it was simply a money making exercise.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    If it's able to be used on areas that don't support food growth then it's just another tool to help alleviate the dependence on foreign oil.

    I don't suppose it's any concern how much oil our own companies sell off? I understand the focus for petroleum companies is their bottom line, allegiance to the shareholders first. But there is plenty of oil produced domestically that we never see a drop of.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/H2UArfvCWac"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/H2UArfvCWac" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Future Headlines:

    3 months - Exxon-Mobil buys Cambridge based energy company Joule for $6 billion.

    6 months - Exxon-Mobil abandons alternative energy project citing inability to produce on a large scale and cost ineffectiveness. </div></div>

    I didnt know he was psychic....or is that psychotic.

    Tucker, you never should have taught me this trick......but thanks....Goldie
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Future Headlines:

    3 months - Exxon-Mobil buys Cambridge based energy company Joule for $6 billion.

    6 months - Exxon-Mobil abandons alternative energy project citing inability to produce on a large scale and cost ineffectiveness. </div></div>

    Sounds about right.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...sounds about right.</div></div>

    Backwards, actually. The oil companies invest heavily in alternative energy research, because they know that they may have to change their business models.

    I worked in the research laboratory of one. A friend of mine was in charge of a hydrogen fuel cell project. It didn't work. After telling several times visitors to the lab, "Well, basically, what we do is take a dollar's worth of resources, and turn it into 50 cents worth of energy", the executives stopped him from conducting tours.

    As to why it didn't work, seen any hydrogen wells lately? Hydrogen can be extracted from water using electricy - expensive and dirty electricity, 50 percent of which comes from burning coal, and you can't build a nuclear power plant. It can also be extracted from natural gas - expensively. So, when you see someone touting hydrogen fuel cells, you might ask where the hydrogen is coming from.

    Oil companies are publicly owned and traded on the stock market. I would recommend that anyone who thinks that they are reaping huge profits by suppressing alternative energy research buy stock.
     
    Re: If this works..........

    "Well, basically, what we do is take a dollar's worth of resources, and turn it into 50 cents worth of energy",

    Governmental SOP.