• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Suppressors If you use a trust.....

I don't see how they can change it..... hundreds of thousands of people use the trust. Also, didn't they recently decide to take the requirement of a CLEO sign off go away?
They stated they saw to much extortion from law agencies charging for their signatures.

What a pile of shit they are creating!
 
from: View Rule

Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.

I can follow 1-3, then 4 says eliminate the signature? I think I am seeing they propose a new form for photo and prints sent to CLEO with a copy of the form 4, or like form. So they want to keep track of stuff but remove CLEO signature. hum...
 
I'm not a fan of the local CLEO having any knowledge and more specifically any records of my NFA items. It's Federally regulated item and the Fed's should have the sole instance of those records. No reason for local CLEO to be involved with NFA, IMO.
 
Nothing has changed or will be. This was proposed last year and was never signed off. Not sure why the Hill has brought this up again.
 
Nothing has changed or will be. This was proposed last year and was never signed off. Not sure why the Hill has brought this up again.

They clearly have nothing better to do. But if they have so much free time, they could chip in and help approve some forms.
 
When will they ever go to a electronic/instant check system? I guess the real question is will they ever????
 
Get your letters ready today!

I'm not a fan of the local CLEO having any knowledge and more specifically any records of my NFA items. It's Federally regulated item and the Fed's should have the sole instance of those records. No reason for local CLEO to be involved with NFA, IMO.

I agree. Remember, the NFA register is a TAX DOCUMENT, not a "gun registry." As a tax document it's distribution needs to be restricted.

Now, I APPROVE of the change that would eliminate the need for a CLEO signature, since that is the very reason that the whole trust thing came into being...many CLEOs simply refused to provide the "no reason not to" statement because they are not federal government employees and that makes it an "unfunded mandate" that they can ignore with impunity. Of course the feds KNEW this when they inserted the CLEO requirement in the first place, and they have DEPENDED on the unwillingness of CLEOs in many places, particularly big cities, to sign off on NFA items as a sub-rosa method of controlling the number of items in the registry.

But when the trust "loophole" started to become popular it seems that the administration noted that this tactic wasn't working anymore. It seems as though they are resigned to the increase in NFA items being registered, but they want better background checks on the principles of trusts. I can see why they want to do it. If you believe background checks are useful in keeping criminals from obtaining firearms (or NFA items) then it sounds reasonable to more closely examine the principles in a trust.

However, the real problem is the added degree of scrutiny applied to NFA applicants. It should be no different than buying any firearm from a dealer: you get a NICS check at the dealer when you buy the item and the NFA forms are submitted, and that is the ONLY background check you need. No fingerprints, no photos.

There is no legitimate reason for someone purchasing an NFA item to be subject to a more thorough background check or to provide photos and fingerprints than any other gun owner because no NFA weapon or item is inherently more dangerous than any other firearm...in fact they are LESS likely to be used in a crime (like once in the last 50 years) precisely because they ARE registered on the NFA books.

What everyone reading this needs to do is to start drafting a formal, well thought-out, polite and professional letter to the BATFE objecting to the CLEO section altogether and requesting that the background check be limited to a NICS instant check of each of the named principles prior to approval of the trust and NFA paperwork.

As to notifying the CLEO, this is likely to pass, so it needs to be argued that what must be sent to the CLEO is merely the identification information on THE TRUST, not on its principles or on the NFA items themselves. The argument is that the NFA branch reviews the trust and the applications as well as doing the background checks, and that there is no legitimate reason why a local CLEO has a "need to know" who or what NFA items a particular trust embodies, any more that he needs to know which individuals own regular Title II firearms. In those places where gun registration is mandatory, the state laws take care of that, so it becomes a states-rights issue.

We all know the feds are going to insist that a CLEO at least be informed of the presence and location of NFA items in a trust because they insist that a CLEO sign off on individual applications already, so they inevitably keep a record of that application in their files. So in that regard it's a minor change for the BATFE because to them it closes the "loophole" that allows NFA trusts to go unreported to the CLEO. Whether we like it or not, BATFE is going to push hard to include trusts, and their principles, in that data transfer, and their argument is a strong one: "We already do this for individual sign-offs on NFA applications, so this is just making trust procedures consistent with long-established NFA policy."

What we need to be focusing on is the ELIMINATION of the CLEO sign-off for INDIVIDUAL applications. This is a carrot and stick approach going on here. They offer to eliminate the individual CLEO sign-off in return for individual-level ID information and CLEO notification on trusts.

On balance, if we're willing to compromise, it's better for everyone to not have to get a CLEO sign-off, and the BATFE predicts, probably correctly, that this one change will significantly reduce the number of trust applications, since the main reason for a trust is bypassing the CLEO sign-off.

But we do have an opportunity, though not a good one, to lobby for other changes to bring sanity to the NFA process, specifically making a NICS instant check the only requirement for everyone who proposes to possess an NFA item, AND eliminating the CLEO sign-off.

So it's a bit of a conundrum. Do we stand firm against the carrot-and-stick approach and probably lose the whole thing, or do we work together and compromise with the feds to get a little more sugar (and a NIC-only background check is a huge win) while recognizing that anybody who is going to be a principle in an NFA trust will need to pass a NICS check just like everybody else?

This is a notice of proposed rulemaking and we ALL have the right, and I'd say the obligation, to flood the BATFE with CAREFUL and PROFESSIONAL arguments stating out opinions.

This needs to be as widely spread as possible because this is a golden opportunity to change the regs. It's not often that we get a chance to have input on a change to NFA regulations and we shouldn't miss this one.
 
All they need to do is require each member of the trust send in photos and fingerprints ONE TIME only and be done with it. That verifies their status as a citizen and their true identity.
They also can require SOT/FFL holders to call in the individual picking up the item in question. Because upon pickup you do fill out a 4473. There are many simply solutions to all of this if they could get someone level headed in that NFA office.
 
I wonder in a family farm corporation for example which owns a SBR and can for varmint control and the President (Dad) is the proposed "responsible party" and he has 4 other officers (kids and wife), what happens when he dies? Does the corporation have to apply for a new responsible party?

How about a security company with gobs of NFA assets? Does the BATF get the right to approve the sale of the controlling interest in that corporation b/c the assets go with the corporation as you know?

I think this is going to open up a whole can of worms with the BATF being drug into corporate mergers, buyouts, probate proceedings where small corporate shares are at stake.
 
I wonder in a family farm corporation for example which owns a SBR and can for varmint control and the President (Dad) is the proposed "responsible party" and he has 4 other officers (kids and wife), what happens when he dies? Does the corporation have to apply for a new responsible party?

How about a security company with gobs of NFA assets? Does the BATF get the right to approve the sale of the controlling interest in that corporation b/c the assets go with the corporation as you know?

I think this is going to open up a whole can of worms with the BATF being drug into corporate mergers, buyouts, probate proceedings where small corporate shares are at stake.

You are looking at it incorrectly. The NFA has no ground to stand on with this issue besides asking that the person "in charge" of the LLC, Trust, Corporation, etc be identified as a valid gun owner.
The rest of what you speak of should be broke down into the paperwork in which your entity was drafted on. My trust states clearly how it is passed on to my son if I were to die. He would not encounter anymore transfers or anything, it goes straight to him when he is of age. Until then my wife has control but may not sell or add any items.
 
That's how it works under the law NOW. I'm telling you that these new rules will not make anything clear about what the ramifications will be for successor parties. Right now, I can effectively kill the paper trail on an NFA weapon by selling control of the corporation to another corporation. The only thing filed is a certificate of merger or succession with the secretary of state. You see what they are REALLY doing is creating a way to track the weapon from corporation 1 to corporation 2 b/c presumably corporation 2 would have to notify the BATF to nominate a new responsible party and the BATF would obviously realize that corp 2 is the new controlling party of the weapon.
 
Imagine if someone proposed that in order to vote you had to submit a photo and fingerprints and then 6-12 months later you would receive your voter registration card in the mail if approved?
 
That's how it works under the law NOW. I'm telling you that these new rules will not make anything clear about what the ramifications will be for successor parties. Right now, I can effectively kill the paper trail on an NFA weapon by selling control of the corporation to another corporation. The only thing filed is a certificate of merger or succession with the secretary of state. You see what they are REALLY doing is creating a way to track the weapon from corporation 1 to corporation 2 b/c presumably corporation 2 would have to notify the BATF to nominate a new responsible party and the BATF would obviously realize that corp 2 is the new controlling party of the weapon.

That's an interesting analysis.

It depends on how the regulation is worded. Will it be worded as an ongoing requirement any time any person who can be "in control" of the NFA items (including employees) must pass the NFA background check, or is it only ongoing if the principles, trustees or beneficiaries CHANGE? Or is it a one-time certification when the trust or corporation acquires an NFA item?

For example, if a trust adds a Trustee, or subtracts a Trustee, or changes the beneficiary, or if a corporation replaces the President or other officer who is deemed a "responsible party" by the new NFA regulation, when does the duty to send in fingerprints and photos begin?

This is EXACTLY why this needs to be discussed and our opinions need to be forwarded to the feds when the comment period opens.

The benefit of a NICS-only NFA background check is that it makes such routine changes relatively simple and entirely adequate. Granting arguendo that any check is needed (which it is certain the feds will insist on) then any employee, officer or Trustee that has "dominion and control" over an NFA item should merely need to pass a NICS check at any local NICS access point. That record is simply electronically appended to the NFA file. Or it can even be set up that the NICS check data sheet must be retained by either the FFL or the trust/corporation for inspection by the BATFE if and when they inspect the premises. Again, arguendo, this seems like a reasonable compromise that minimally infringes on those who possess NFA items while addressing the (legitimate or illegitimate) concerns of the Feds that persons who are in or may be in control of NFA items pass some sort of background check.

This idea is easy, simple and cheap to implement. All the FBI has to do is create a new processing procedure for a Form 4473 that allows a background check without having to buy a weapon. And the benefit to doing this is that they can use the same system to ease the need for "universal" background check schemes by allowing ANY private individual to run a NICS check on anyone who wants to buy a gun from them, on a voluntary basis, and without having to give THEIR information to the FBI. A private sale owner would simply call up, give the identity information of the potential buyer and get a yes or no answer from NICS. Then it's up to the seller not to complete the transaction. I know I'd be glad to have this service available so I can know I'm not selling to a prohibited person, but without the gun-trace/registration data being entered in the system.
 
That's a pretty damn good idea. I'm not a tin-hatter but I take comfort in the fact that the government really has no idea what I own. They obviouy realize I own lots of weapons based on my by NICS checks, but b/c we trade/sell/barter weapons like playing cards at our monthly trade night, no one can be sure who owns what specific weapon and plausale deniability exists for all parties. "No I think I sold that to Bob, or was it his second cousin." I'm not required to be the responsible party on a per weapon basis.
 
That's an interesting analysis.... but without the gun-trace/registration data being entered in the system.
Some good brainstorming going on, but facts and assumptions should be collected as well. What registration data entered in the system? Are you talking the nfa registration? Otherwise, with a NICS check, no weapon serial number or model or any specific info goes to the FBI, contrary to what many people think.
 
Some good brainstorming going on, but facts and assumptions should be collected as well. What registration data entered in the system? Are you talking the nfa registration? Otherwise, with a NICS check, no weapon serial number or model or any specific info goes to the FBI, contrary to what many people think.

My idea, which is based on achievable practicality, is that the NFA registration would go on as per normal, but instead of photos and fingerprings and CLEO sign-offs, applicants would merely be run through the NICS system. If they pass, the registration is processed. In the case of a corporation or trust, each person who would have dominion or control over the NFA item would have to pass a NICS check, but that's it.
 
What we need to be focusing on is the ELIMINATION of the CLEO sign-off for INDIVIDUAL applications. This is a carrot and stick approach going on here. They offer to eliminate the individual CLEO sign-off in return for individual-level ID information and CLEO notification on trusts.

On balance, if we're willing to compromise, it's better for everyone to not have to get a CLEO sign-off, and the BATFE predicts, probably correctly, that this one change will significantly reduce the number of trust applications, since the main reason for a trust is bypassing the CLEO sign-off.

But we do have an opportunity, though not a good one, to lobby for other changes to bring sanity to the NFA process, specifically making a NICS instant check the only requirement for everyone who proposes to possess an NFA item, AND eliminating the CLEO sign-off.

So it's a bit of a conundrum. Do we stand firm against the carrot-and-stick approach and probably lose the whole thing, or do we work together and compromise with the feds to get a little more sugar (and a NIC-only background check is a huge win) while recognizing that anybody who is going to be a principle in an NFA trust will need to pass a NICS check just like everybody else?

This is a notice of proposed rulemaking and we ALL have the right, and I'd say the obligation, to flood the BATFE with CAREFUL and PROFESSIONAL arguments stating out opinions.

This needs to be as widely spread as possible because this is a golden opportunity to change the regs. It's not often that we get a chance to have input on a change to NFA regulations and we shouldn't miss this one.


+1

While we're on the subject of lobbying...

How about we start lobbying to eliminate suppressors COMPLETELY from the NFA process.

Not only good for the consumer (ears/$$$$), manufacturers and dealers, but would probably eliminate 1/3 to 1/2 of BATFE's workload.

Someone explain to me why they continue to be lumped together with SBRs, machine guns, etc. ?
 
My idea, which is based on achievable practicality, is that the NFA registration would go on as per normal, but instead of photos and fingerprings and CLEO sign-offs, applicants would merely be run through the NICS system. If they pass, the registration is processed. In the case of a corporation or trust, each person who would have dominion or control over the NFA item would have to pass a NICS check, but that's it.

They will never go for it I predict if they can't tie the NICS to a serial number of a particular NFA item. That creates the situation where you might have to list all your cans, SBR and subguns on the NICS check for any potential scenario where partner X might wish to use any given toy. Of course, for a huge security firm with hundreds of NFA items, would they attach an exhibit "A" to the request as there's no telling what the party checked might want to handle on a given day or duty???

If only one party in a business entity is required to be checked then what of the two bad seed brothers with felonies who are also officers in the corporation. Can't control that. That's why the whole thing is stupid. Is they BATF going to deny a transfer to corporaration XYZ because one of 5 officers has a felony or are they a ok if only the responsible party has a clean record. Are they goiing to just note it and move on. Only the local donut eater is going to have any idea in a potential scenario where they personally observe bubba shooting a weapon that he ought not to be in possession of. I mean really, what's the point of this excercise by the BATF???

As you say though, the best solution is just to have a blanket non specific NICS check on file for each officer or perhaps if applicable a copy of state issued concealed carry license proving their fitness to hold a weapon.

Maybe you only need one party responsible and all the other parties can use at will with the assumption that the responsible party must ensure no wife beaters in his corporation have access to the items, but how can anybody really be sure? Perplexing.
 
Last edited:
+1

While we're on the subject of lobbying...

How about we start lobbying to eliminate suppressors COMPLETELY from the NFA process.

Not only good for the consumer (ears/$$$$), manufacturers and dealers, but would probably eliminate 1/3 to 1/2 of BATFE's workload.

Someone explain to me why they continue to be lumped together with SBRs, machine guns, etc. ?

Because they are. Yes, they shouldn't be, but that is an entirely different campaign. The thing most people think might be achievable with respect to suppresors is to allow immediate possession of the can while the paperwork is pending, but that's a hard sell.

We need to focus on what's before the decision-making bodies right now, IMHO.
 
They will never go for it I predict if they can't tie the NICS to a serial number of a particular NFA item. That creates the situation where you might have to list all your cans, SBR and subguns on the NICS check for any potential scenario where partner X might wish to use any given toy. Of course, for a huge security firm with hundreds of NFA items, would they attach an exhibit "A" to the request as there's no telling what the party checked might want to handle on a given day or duty???

Why would they have to do that? It's already the case that if you have a corporation that owns NFA items that any not otherwise disqualified employee can handle the NFA items under the direction and supervision of the corporation, so at the moment there is NO background check at all on such employees. If every person who has authority to possess any of the NFA items merely has to pass a NICS check it does not substantially change the way it works now. If you work for a corporation or are a Trustee in a trust dealing with NFA items, it's pretty clear that the BATFE would like to have you do all the background paperwork, regardless of your position. Right now they are limiting consideration to the idea that all Trustees of trusts should be required to submit fingerprints and photos. What I'm advocating is that we use the carrot/stick approach too. We suggest that rather than just Trustees, that ANYONE who is authorized to handle NFA items in either a trust or a corporation be required to pass a NICS check. This is good for the BATFE because it expands the coverage to all authorized users/handlers, which is a perfectly rational thing for them to desire, and it's good for the NFA community because it ends exactly what the BATFE is worried about right now, which is that both corporations and trusts can be used to give persons who have not been background-checked in any way at all legal access to NFA items.

Ending the burdensome photo/fingerprint requirement for ALL NFA transactions and replacing it with a simple instant NICS check would be a MAJOR victory for the NFA community, which we might be able to get passed if we are willing to compromise on the matter of some sort of background check for anyone handling NFA items, which is what's worrying the BATFE right now.

The NFA items are still registered and it's still true that only authorized persons may possess them, but rather than the trust or corporation either being required to fingerprint/photograph every person including employees who handle NFA items, which seems to me to be a highly likely end-game intent of the BATFE under the "death of a thousand cuts" principle or the corporation or trust being responsible for keeping records of employees, which are prone to errors...and we all know what the BATFE likes to do with mix-ups in paperwork...all either entity would need to do is have each authorized person pass a NICS check and keep a copy of the approval in the employee's employment file or trust records for inspection. Simple, easy and quick.

If only one party in a business entity is required to be checked then what of the two bad seed brothers with felonies who are also officers in the corporation. Can't control that. That's why the whole thing is stupid. Is they BATF going to deny a transfer to corporaration XYZ because one of 5 officers has a felony or are they a ok if only the responsible party has a clean record. Are they goiing to just note it and move on. Only the local donut eater is going to have any idea in a potential scenario where they personally observe bubba shooting a weapon that he ought not to be in possession of. I mean really, what's the point of this excercise by the BATF???

The point of the exercise is to expand the background check requirements for trusts and corporations to include the principle officers/trustees who are liable and responsible for the proper possession and use of NFA items by other trustees or other corporate employees. They want to a) ensure that all corporate officers and trustees are legally qualified to deal with NFA items; and b) they specifically identify who is the "responsible party" who can be tossed in jail if NFA items are handled improperly.

The reason for this is that it is true that one can form a trust or a corporation as a "front" with a single trustee or two who may be background checked during the approval process but which may add and subtract trustees once the trust has been approved without ever notifying the BATFE of the changes to who is authorized to handle NFA items, which changes can potentially include persons disqualified from possessing firearms.

With an individual application, the BATFE always know what specific individual is authorized to possess the NFA item and who is responsible for violations.

This is not the case with corporations and trusts, and with the explosion in the use of trusts to avoid the often impossible to get CLEO signoff the BATFE is concerned that they don't really know who is authorized to handle NFA items in trusts and corporations and who to hold responsible for violations.

So they are proposing to eliminate the CLEO sign-off requirement in order to encourage individual registration rather than trusts or corporations by making it easier to get individual approval while also tightening the requirements for fingerprint/photo background checks of trustees and corporate officers.

It's a carrot/stick plan. The NFA community gets rid of the problematic CLEO sign off in return for more stringent background checks on trustees and corporate officers and "notification" of the CLEO of the application.

I'm suggesting that we compromise by offering them NICS checks on ANYONE in a trust or corporation who is authorized to handle NFA items in return for dropping the fingerprint/photograph requirement that is intrusive, unnecessary and time-consuming. The argument is that the NICS check should be sufficient to show that someone handling NFA items is not prohibited from doing so.
 
My idea, which is based on achievable practicality, is that the NFA registration would go on as per normal, but instead of photos and fingerprings and CLEO sign-offs, applicants would merely be run through the NICS system. If they pass, the registration is processed. In the case of a corporation or trust, each person who would have dominion or control over the NFA item would have to pass a NICS check, but that's it.


Pretty solid idea here. But getting to that end result may be wishful thinking though.
 
That's because it would simply make too much sense... As far as I can tell, if you pass the NICS check, you are usually, if not always able to own and posses an NFA item. If the Feds think that the NICS is suffient enough for a guy to go out and by any typical gun off the shelf then there should be no reason it isn't good enough for a suppressor, sbr or machine gun.
 
I'm telling you guys that is not the deal. They want to know who specifically owns each item by serial number. I'm convinced what they don't want is for a weapon to get sold to x corp and then have it vanish into the fog of corporate mergers or acquisitions or into a trust that gets absorbed or modified over decades. They want to avoid what Warren Buffet has done with an analysis of his multitiered entities - the SEC can't even determine who owns what in his organization with an army of lawyers and bean counters.

It's about keeping an accurate database of ownership and not about stopping some wife beater from having a trust that then buys NFA toys.
 
I'm telling you guys that is not the deal. They want to know who specifically owns each item by serial number. I'm convinced what they don't want is for a weapon to get sold to x corp and then have it vanish into the fog of corporate mergers or acquisitions or into a trust that gets absorbed or modified over decades. They want to avoid what Warren Buffet has done with an analysis of his multitiered entities - the SEC can't even determine who owns what in his organization with an army of lawyers and bean counters.

It's about keeping an accurate database of ownership and not about stopping some wife beater from having a trust that then buys NFA toys.

I think it's a multi-pronged revision. Yes, the feds want a "responsible person" assigned to each NFA item held by a corporation or trust and they currently want all principles of corporations and all trustees to go through a background check, specifically the "enhanced" one with fingerprints and photos.

Of course they ALSO want fingerprints and photos so they can IDENTIFY NFA owners on the bogus theory that they are some sort of extra-dangerous people who need to be monitored and carefully identified. As far as I know, the photos and fingerprints go straight into the FBI NCIC database as a "person of interest" and whenever some cop runs your ID the dispatcher will probably see an NCIC record entry to that effect. I'm not positive about this, and I could be wrong, but I do know, for example, that some Sheriffs in Colorado enter all CCW permits they issue into the state CCIC system because whenever they query my name they always end up asking for my permit if I haven't shown it to them already. And that data leaked over to the NCIC database because I got queried out of state as well. Don't know how that happened, it's not supposed to, but I would not be in the least bit surprised to see all NFA owners listed as "persons of interest" in the NCIC database...if not now in the near future.

I'm not suggesting that we should challenge the "responsible person" change because that's obviously something they want to do precisely because corporate NFA owners are less scrutinized than private NFA owners and that could qualify as an Equal Protection violation as well as sloppy recordkeeping.

I'm merely suggesting that insofar as the requirement for a background check is concerned, that we advocate that the NICS check, which can be done at any licensed FFL, or at the NFA branch, is an adequate background check for NFA purposes. Corporate and trust owners would still have to list all authorized persons on the registry, but it would save massive amounts of time to do NICS checks instead of tasking agents with pointless expanded background checks.

The idea is to get rid of the CLEO sign-off and ease the background check delays and complexity in return for having to tell the NFA Branch who all is authorized to possess NFA items within a corporation or trust and certify that they have passed the NICS check. It's as simple as photocopying the ID used to run the NICS check and sending the NICS reply along with the ID copy to the NFA Branch with a form saying "this person is authorized to possess NFA items in connection with his/her duties to the corporation/trust. The NFA Branch then files this away with the organizations records and only uses it if there's a violation suspected.

Small steps might get it done.

It's worth the time and effort to make a coordinated and well-presented argument to this effect no matter what, because the worst case scenario is that they do what they have proposed to do. If we can get them to tweak it a bit more, by lobbying our Congressional representatives, we might actually win one.

That's my opinion anyway.
 
Because they are. Yes, they shouldn't be, but that is an entirely different campaign. The thing most people think might be achievable with respect to suppresors is to allow immediate possession of the can while the paperwork is pending, but that's a hard sell.

We need to focus on what's before the decision-making bodies right now, IMHO.

the Time thing isn't really that big a deal. If you think about it, since there are $5 NFA items, suppressors should be $5 items.
 
And? How can that help in these circumstances??

It won't help but it does show that if the goal is to keep prohibited persons from getting access to NFA items by fingerprinting and photographing them at the time a stamp is awarded the trust can be modified the next day to include a prohibited person. Granted that it's illegal for a prohibited person to be in possession of a firearm but that's already the law today.
 
"Require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints;


how would you do this for a 6mo year old?

besides.. they way its written, you could have 1 person on the corop/trust... take possession, then add them after and avoid this...
 
I'm very confused and extremely concerned. You guys are talking about the elimination of the CLEO Signoff requirement. I'm not seeing that in the the atf website

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...uctive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf


"ATF does not propose to eliminate the CLEO certificate requirement at this time. Rather, ATF proposes extending the CLEO certificate requirement to responsible persons of a legal entity. ATF also proposes amending the language of the certificate to omit the requirement that the certifiying official state that he has no information that the applicant or transferee will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes."

How this reads to me.

1. If you own a Trust, you as trustee are now required to obtain CLEO signoff.
2. CLEOs who refuse to 'sign off' have been illegally declining a request by the ATF to respond. Seems to me that the language of the certificate (as it stands today) indicates it is not asking the CLEO if he wishes to signoff. It is instructing him to respond whether he sees any reason to deny the applicant. They've been failing to comply with a specific request all along. Now this language has been removed.


Someone slap some sense into my head and tell me I've got it all wrong.
 
Last edited:
I just finished the all my Form 4 submissions last week. I did a flurry of 2 SBR's and 3 suppressors. I bought all the ammo I needed for several years last fall. The one thing you can count on is the current administration to broad cast their intentions well in advance. Plan for the worse, hope for the best. But always plan ahead. It will be very interesting to see how these executive actions sift out. I am proud of you guys for brainstorming solutions and for organizing future directions in rational gun laws. Some of you would make good politicians.
 
Nothing has changed or will be. This was proposed last year and was never signed off. Not sure why the Hill has brought this up again.

They reviewed the rules very recently and decided not to change anything. But the President has now signed an executive order mandating this, so the rules will most definitely be changed, or at least "clarified." I think the clarification would be a good thing except for the fact that this will now increase wait times. On implementation, I want to make it clear that forms already submitted will be grandfathered in. They cashed my check in April and told me it will be until next June when it is ready. If I have to resubmit some certifications, I could be looking at a 2 year wait. That is unacceptable.
 
Did not think the asshole would would push for this. Write your representatives, about all we can do.
 
we need to be bending these laws the OTHER WAY , it's like we stand still ,and try to stop the new ones that are purposed AGAINST us.
 
Relevant quote from that article:

"As with many actions these days by the Obama administration, the president doesn't have the authority to rewrite the current rules. Changing these rules for corporations requires congressional action."

John Lott, the author, is well informed. I hope he's right.
 
I'm still waiting on my trust lawyer to call. Apparently he can't get a straight answer out of the ATF either, that they don't know exactly what the deal is or how to go about it. We'll see, but I'm going by his word as I have a couple to start soon. I'll let everyone know what he says when I hear from him. Until then, discuss away, I guess.
 
And? How can that help in these circumstances??

You could have two sets of Trust documents, the one you send in with only you and the other for when the family or group is out shooting. Just like some over the road trucker having two sets of log books.
 
This might be silly. But what about a NFA trust, that's a part of another trust? Say Johnny buys a suppressor, and he makes an NFA trust to do it. Sends in his paper work, gets finger printed (new proposed rules, etc) and it gets approved.

What if that NFA trust is incorporated into another trust. Say for family assets or something. Could the people in the family trust have access to the NFA items?

I don't think they'd be allowed, but ya'll are smarter than me about these things.
 
I'm very confused and extremely concerned. You guys are talking about the elimination of the CLEO Signoff requirement. I'm not seeing that in the the atf website

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...uctive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf


"ATF does not propose to eliminate the CLEO certificate requirement at this time. Rather, ATF proposes extending the CLEO certificate requirement to responsible persons of a legal entity. ATF also proposes amending the language of the certificate to omit the requirement that the certifiying official state that he has no information that the applicant or transferee will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes."

How this reads to me.

1. If you own a Trust, you as trustee are now required to obtain CLEO signoff.
2. CLEOs who refuse to 'sign off' have been illegally declining a request by the ATF to respond. Seems to me that the language of the certificate (as it stands today) indicates it is not asking the CLEO if he wishes to signoff. It is instructing him to respond whether he sees any reason to deny the applicant. They've been failing to comply with a specific request all along. Now this language has been removed.


Someone slap some sense into my head and tell me I've got it all wrong.

I think your first premise is correct, that the BATF will now require CLEO signoff on trusts and corporations in addition to the existing requirement for individuals. They're not eliminating the signoff, they're extending it, just like the text says on the top of page 14.

With regard to your second premise, I suppose one could read it that way, but just because they "instruct" a CLEO to respond doesn't mean he or she will. What are they gonna do, throw the CLEO in jail for failing to sign some paperwork for scary guns that they want "off the streets"?

I think this latest nail is really bad news for the Title II community.
 
subbing to this thread for updates

I'm just curious, but how does the ATF plan on enforcing this if it does go through? I'm just afraid people will get tagged for negligence (or something along those lines) because if the law gets passed, some trust holders may be unaware of the changes.
 
I would find it damn near impossible to track down everyone who has a trust set up already, it would have to be a grand fathered in deal. As far as tagging people, they don't have the man power or the time to go back through all the trusts already set up and flag them, think about the actual number of people we are talking about.

And again this is just a proposal as of right now