IMR 8208 XBR and Hornady 68gBTHPs

[RldrNewby]

I am new to reloading, so be patient. My question is whether my velocities are consistent with what others are getting with 8208 and Horn 68gBTHPs? I stumbled on what appears to be a great load with respect to accuracy, but the velocities appear anemic. Also, I was curious if anyone had tried loading above 24.0g as I was considering seeing if another node could be found within a reasonable safety margin above 24.0g. I did see an ejector smear at 24.0, but honestly, I don’t know if it was already there before hand. My test was as follows:

Hornady 68gBTHP
IMR 8208 XBR 100yd Test

Wt. MV ES Group
22.2g 2544 65 .875”
22.4g 2565 56 .250“
22.6g 2618 21 .250”
22.8g 2641 35 .687”
23.0g 2665 27 >1”
*23.2g Not Tested
23.4g 2688 37 >1”
23.6g 2743 37 .875”
23.8g 2761 33 .938”
24.0g 2806 11 >1”

*Test was fired unsuppressed in round robin order. Feed issues were encountered at 23.2g, so that ammo was discarded due to dented cases from the mis-feeds. A quick side test with known good factory ammo revealed the typically very reliable gun was dry and dirty, and the rifle was mis-feeding with the known good ammo as well. Single feeding was performed for the remainder of the test.

Rifle:
AR15 Springfield Saint 16” 1:8 Twist, pinned mid-length gas non-adjustable, 5.56 NATO Chamber.

Brass:
Mixed, LC-14 and Hornady with approx 3 firings. Headspace of twice Fired Brass 1.4625. Full Length Re-Sized to 1.460 +/- 0.001. Primer Pockets uniformed, and trimmed to 1.750”.

Primers:
CCI 450s

Seating Depth:
2.250”

 

[supercorndogs]

16" barrel, that sounds about right.

IMO. I would sort the brass by headstamp.

 

[RldrNewby]

Thank you sir. I’ve reloaded only for my 6.5CM up to this point, but just recently got dies for the .223 to see if it would be worth my while. , All I have is a hodge podge mix of pick up brass. I definitely plan on trying to get my hands on a few hundred Lapua Brass. Was very surprised it shot as good as it did. Prolly just run with 2618fps and see if it holds up at 500yds.

 

[supercorndogs]

I use LC pretty exclusively in 223. Its not bad mixed by year.

 

[RldrNewby]

That brings me to my next question, albeit slightly off topic. Are you annealing? I had no idea how deep this rabbit hole of reloading went, but just read about the benefits of annealing. I was expecting to get maybe 6-8 firings before running into sketchy brass, and tossing them, but it’s my understanding that annealing can lower ES and extend Brass firings possibly near twenty. Without annealing, how many firings are you getting with LC on avg with relative sane pressure loads before seeing work hardened necks or loose pockets?

 

[supercorndogs]

I do anneal. I have loaded brass 15+ times without annealing. My dad has LC 223 brass that has been loaded 30+ times without annealing. Annealing ones brass at home is a fairly new phenomenon, or at least the commonality of people doing it anyway. All the who what where when and how of it is pretty subjective. For me every 3-5 seems to work.

 

[Evlshnngns]

Thank you sir. I’ve reloaded only for my 6.5CM up to this point, but just recently got dies for the .223 to see if it would be worth my while. , All I have is a hodge podge mix of pick up brass. I definitely plan on trying to get my hands on a few hundred Lapua Brass. Was very surprised it shot as good as it did. Prolly just run with 2618fps and see if it holds up at 500yds.

Skip lapua brass for an ar15. Ive had good luck with any brass that was sorted. My starline 223 brass holds a grain less powder compared to FC. These small capacity cartridges can spike pressure fast, do it right if you are chasing velocity.

 

[RldrNewby]

Thanks for the heads up. I’ve read a ton while researching reloading, but there’s no real substitute for experience. The amount of info and varying opinions out there can be overwhelming when trying to figure out what’s what on most every topic, lol. I might be looking in the wrong places, but it seems pretty hard to find 223 brass right now. I was considering Starline before Lapua, but it seems to be on back order about everywhere. I’m not opposed to LC either. Just not having much luck finding brass anywhere. Any recommendations?

 

[Evlshnngns]

Thanks for the heads up. I’ve read a ton while researching reloading, but there’s no real substitute for experience. The amount of info and varying opinions out there can be overwhelming when trying to figure out what’s what on most every topic, lol. I might be looking in the wrong places, but it seems pretty hard to find 223 brass right now. I was considering Starline before Lapua, but it seems to be on back order about everywhere. I’m not opposed to LC either. Just not having much luck finding brass anywhere. Any recommendations?

Ounce fired from your local classifieds. Or LGS.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Thank you sir. I’ve reloaded only for my 6.5CM up to this point, but just recently got dies for the .223 to see if it would be worth my while. , All I have is a hodge podge mix of pick up brass. I definitely plan on trying to get my hands on a few hundred Lapua Brass. Was very surprised it shot as good as it did. Prolly just run with 2618fps and see if it holds up at 500yds.

I wouldn't bother with lapua on an ar15. It will beat on it pretty bad. If you can't get NATO brass, remington brass is pretty tough, I've also had good luck with Winchester

 

[RldrNewby]

I wouldn't bother with lapua on an ar15. It will beat on it pretty bad. If you can't get NATO brass, remington brass is pretty tough, I've also had good luck with Winchester

Thanks. I’ll search the web a little harder tomorrow. I’ve had good luck finding what I’ve needed to get started with reloading (the list never seems to end ) at Natchez Shooters Supply and Midsouth Shooters Supply, but the 223/5.56 brass selections on those sites were virtually nonexistent on Backorder. Wonder what’s goin on with that? Pandemic/Riots induced panic buying... Stockpiling... Military buildup/demand? Who knows?

 

[LawnMM]

I'd be leery of Winchester on a progressive. Had a bag with out of spec primer pockets, primer wouldn't seat fully.

Of course this was when I was new to progressives and locked up the press and broke shit like 3 times before I figured out what was happening.

Never a hiccup with Lapua and it's on its 11th firing now

 

[MarinePMI]

Been loading 24.3 grs of XBR under 75gr bullets, so yeah, there's likely another node for you above 24. Just not sure if you have enough barrel length to use it.

 

[Gustav7]

Been loading 24.3 grs of XBR under 75gr bullets, so yeah, there's likely another node for you above 24. Just not sure if you have enough barrel length to use it.

You running that in an AR? Whats your velocity and barrel length? Any pressure signs when the temps go up?

 

[MarinePMI]

Been running it in a bolt gun. 24" barrel, no issues from 32 * , up to 104*. The primers get a little less rounded at 104, but they still shoot/function fine.

2925fps with 75gr ELDM

 

[RldrNewby]

I'd be leery of Winchester on a progressive. Had a bag with out of spec primer pockets, primer wouldn't seat fully.

Of course this was when I was new to progressives and locked up the press and broke shit like 3 times before I figured out what was happening.

Never a hiccup with Lapua and it's on its 11th firing now

Thanks. I don’t have a precision bolt 223, so for my application, I will be trying to optimize my AR for it’s best accuracy/precision. I will be bench-rest shooting steel with it at 300, 500, 780, and possibly 1000 (when I can get a 20moa rail and dial in my 77g SMK load) at a local club range, so brass pickups are mandatory. Lapua is about all I’m finding available, so even tho it’s pricey, I think that may be the route I end up going.

 

[Gustav7]

Thanks. I don’t have a precision bolt 223, so for my application, I will be trying to optimize my AR for it’s best accuracy/precision. I will be bench-rest shooting steel with it at 300, 500, 780, and possibly 1000 (when I can get a 20moa rail and dial in my 77g SMK load) at a local club range, so brass pickups are mandatory. Lapua is about all I’m finding available, so even tho it’s pricey, I think that may be the route I end up going.

how much brass you need? I have a quite a bit of once fired LC brass I haven’t loaded up yet. I could spare a few hundred, PM if interested

 

[RldrNewby]

Been running it in a bolt gun. 24" barrel, no issues from 32 * , up to 104*. The primers get a little less rounded at 104, but they still shoot/function fine.

2925fps with 75gr ELDM

More testing needed on my end at 24g with better screening of the brass for existing ejector swipes before I try going above. As a general rule of thumb, what’s the general consensus on how many FPS slower per inch one can expect an AR to run. I realize most published data comes out of 24” barrels, but my rifle has a 16” barrel, so I didn’t know if my velocity was sufficient. I don’t wanna push the envelope with crazy pressures to get velocity, and will basically be happy with my 22.6g load if it continues to give me 1/4” groups and doesn’t keyhole at 500.

 

[spife7980]

More testing needed on my end at 24g with better screening of the brass for existing ejector swipes before I try going above. As a general rule of thumb, what’s the general consensus on how many FPS slower per inch one can expect an AR to run. I realize most published data comes out of 24” barrels, but my rifle has a 16” barrel, so I didn’t know if my velocity was sufficient. I don’t wanna push the envelope with crazy pressures to get velocity, and will basically be happy with my 22.6g load if it continues to give me 1/4” groups and doesn’t keyhole at 500.

Personally I wouldn't push above 24 grains of 8208. I ran 24.3 for a few cycles until I noticed my lapua brass in my 16" bolt was trashed after 6 cycles. I now am back down to me 23.5-.8 area and the cases are on their 13th firing now and Im pushng a 75 eld at 2800. Its not worth going for the next highest speed.

Segregate those cases and develop a load with the case brand that you have the most of. Then see how that works in the other brand brass.
You may luck into something that works great in both but its hard enough developing a good load with only one set of matching components, adding randomness in brass only dilutes any results you get.

 

[MarinePMI]

Velocity loss per inch is dependent of bore size and case volume.

Regardless, your caution is well founded in a semi-auto, though most find a sweet spot/node around 23.6 in an AR. Padom had quite an extensive 223 load data postin the reloading depot sub-forum

 

[MarinePMI]

Spife beat me to the post button.

 

[RldrNewby]

how much brass you need? I have a quite a bit of once fired LC brass I haven’t loaded up yet. I could spare a few hundred, PM if interested

That was extremely gracious of you, but I think I’ve bout decided to just order a couple boxes of Lapua to see how it goes. It’ll be a good learning experience for me to work with some never fired brass, completely prep it, then shoot it in my rifle only to get a better feel for how it grows, wears, and shows pressure signs. I have plenty of time on my hands and don’t shoot a high volume of rounds, so this will be a fun ride. Thanks again for the offer.

 

[spife7980]

That was extremely gracious of you, but I think I’ve bout decided to just order a couple boxes of Lapua to see how it goes. It’ll be a good learning experience for me to work with some never fired brass, completely prep it, then shoot it in my rifle only to get a better feel for how it grows, wears, and shows pressure signs. I have plenty of time on my hands and don’t shoot a high volume of rounds, so this will be a fun ride. Thanks again for the offer.

Good idea. Lapua is an expensive test candidate to put in a semi auto machine thats just going to beat it up but if you want consistency its hard to beat.
Your on the right track of studying one thing and then expanding down the road.

 

[RldrNewby]

Personally I wouldn't push above 24 grains of 8208. I ran 24.3 for a few cycles until I noticed my lapua brass in my 16" bolt was trashed after 6 cycles. I now am back down to me 23.5-.8 area and the cases are on their 13th firing now and Im pushng a 75 eld at 2800. Its not worth going for the next highest speed.

Segregate those cases and develop a load with the case brand that you have the most of. Then see how that works in the other brand brass.
You may luck into something that works great in both but its hard enough developing a good load with only one set of matching components, adding randomness in brass only dilutes any results you get.

That makes perfect sense to me. Thanks

 

[RldrNewby]

Good idea. Lapua is an expensive test candidate to put in a semi auto machine thats just going to beat it up but if you want consistency its hard to beat.
Your on the right track of studying one thing and then expanding down the road.

It’s easy to get lost in all the varying opinions folks can have on Sniper’s Hide, but this place has been a gold mine of helpful information. I read where the case capacities vary (Lapua has less) so that can increase pressure if you don’t back off a smidge, so when I work the Lapua uo, I do intend to basically repeat the whole test again from scratch, especially since my best groups were at the low end. The amount of information on this site is amazing. Huge help to newcomers like me.

 

[RldrNewby]

Good idea. Lapua is an expensive test candidate to put in a semi auto machine thats just going to beat it up but if you want consistency its hard to beat.
Your on the right track of studying one thing and then expanding down the road.

Well, about one thing at a time, I did do a little multi tasking and tried another test on my last outing using 77gSMKs . They did fine, but I just didn’t get any ridiculously small groups with them like I did the 68s. Who knows? Could’ve been my technique behind the gun at that point. I do want to see how the 77s group at 200 and 500 tho. Might surprise me.

 

[Snuby642]

Just as a reference, even though I was advised against it by all my mentor's on sh I proceded to try and develop a non sorted range brass / progressive load for ar's.

As I used all the best skills I have been taught.

I did manage 3-4 moa with a few 2 1/2 inch groups occasionally.

If 100 yard minute of watermellon is good enough, carry on.

Same load (with powder increments)
Using federal range pickup brass sorted only for head stamp has so far produced 1.25 moa.

This was 16 inch ar mid grade at best.
And speer 52g bulk bullets.

I was immediately compelled to sort 5 gallons of brass for the 462 remaining federal brass.

Still toying with this load.
It's not that I think federal is better but it has positively proven to me the instant value of sorting headstamps even for ar plinkers.

I'm thinking top shelf brass for an ar is extravagant but if in a bench rest competition go for it.

Imho

 

[padom]

Been loading 24.3 grs of XBR under 75gr bullets, so yeah, there's likely another node for you above 24. Just not sure if you have enough barrel length to use it.

24.3gr 8208 under 75gr in an AR15?? Thats an very hot load in an AR15 with 75's.... Or are you shooting that in a bolt gun??

EDIT: I now see you posted again saying in a bolt gun. Thats way too hot for a AR. Ive been testing and shooting 8208 for many years in AR's and bolt guns and I wouldnt even shoot 24gr in an AR..... 23.2- 23.6gr is pretty well known node for AR's with 75/77gr bullets..

 

[padom]

Well, about one thing at a time, I did do a little multi tasking and tried another test on my last outing using 77gSMKs . They did fine, but I just didn’t get any ridiculously small groups with them like I did the 68s. Who knows? Could’ve been my technique behind the gun at that point. I do want to see how the 77s group at 200 and 500 tho. Might surprise me.
View attachment 7385400

What is your testing procedure?? Are you just loading charges and deciding on load by group size? Forgive me, but thats what it appears since you refernce not finding small groups... You do know, you are NOT looking for group size when doing this part of the test.. You should be shooting your different charges, (0.2gr increments I see which is good) in Round Robin style. You should be use same headstamp brass when doing this. Biggest reason why, case capacity differences causing different pressures. That will skew your results right off the bat...

You are looking for consistent POI (Point of Impact) to identify the node. 23.2-23.4gr is pretty consistent and right there in the known 77smk/8208XBR node... 23.6gr - 24.0 POI drops down a little and is pretty consistent across those charges. You have options here. I would load up 23.3gr and do a seating depth test.

Your next step is to do a seating depth test. That is the step where you look for group size. If done properly, I guarantee you will find one group that shrinks right up and stands out from the rest....

Here is my load development with 8208XBR and 77smk out of a WOA 20: 1:7 SDM barrel all at 100yd

This is my initial OCW looking for the node (consistent POI across various consecutive charges).. You can see, my POI is very consistent from 23.2gr to 23.8gr. I picked 23.6gr being pretty much in the middle of this very wide node... If not knowledgable about how to do proper load development, you would think Im crazy as 23.6gr is one of the largest groups. But doesnt bother me, because Im NOT looking at group size. You have to ignore it.







Now, Ive selected 23.6gr so I load up a bunch of rounds with 23.6gr and I do a seating depth test, again shot Round Robin style at 100yds..







Now here you can see the clear stand out of the seating depth my barrel/load likes. It shrunk right up, just what I was looking for. Im now ready for load confirmation test.


Here is my final load confirmation test @ 100yd. Load is confirmed, very consistent and very accurate.





Time to test at distance for final load confirmation. Not bad 0.6moa @ 546yd in a 15MPH crosswind.. I call it good at this point




This is my process for EVERY load I develop. Is it a lot of work? Yep. Does it work, time after time. Yep, every single time. Start with some same headstamp brass and restart your testing.

I do all my precision AR shooting with prepped 1xLC. There is no need to use Lapua in an AR unless you have money to burn and dont care about beating the shit out of it or loosing it.... I found zero accuracy difference testing my loads in Lapua vs prepped LC (flash holes deburred, pockets uniformed, annealed, sized, chamfer/debur).

 

[RldrNewby]

24.3gr 8208 under 75gr in an AR15?? Thats an very hot load in an AR15 with 75's.... Or are you shooting that in a bolt gun??

EDIT: I now see you posted again saying in a bolt gun. Thats way too hot for a AR. Ive been testing and shooting 8208 for many years in AR's and bolt guns and I wouldnt even shoot 24gr in an AR..... 23.2- 23.6gr is pretty well known node for AR's with 75/77gr bullets..

Have you had any luck with 8208 with Hornady 68g BTHPs without cannelure? I only did three shot groups on my initial 68g test, but the groups at lower charges blew me away. Was not expecting to see that, but was pleasantly surprised. Gotta see if I can duplicate it now and will try it with what I currently have available as far as sorted headstamp brass goes.

 

[sinister]

24.3gr 8208 under 75gr in an AR15?? Thats an very hot load in an AR15 with 75's.... Or are you shooting that in a bolt gun??

EDIT: I now see you posted again saying in a bolt gun. Thats way too hot for a AR. Ive been testing and shooting 8208 for many years in AR's and bolt guns and I wouldnt even shoot 24gr in an AR..... 23.2- 23.6gr is pretty well known node for AR's with 75/77gr bullets..

23.2 - 23.6 is a popular range for National Match M16s and ARs.

Lapua brass with Hornady bullets is like putting random used tires on a show room Maserati. If you're going to use Lapua at least try some Sierra 69s or Berger 73s.

1,000 yards out of a 16-inch barrel can be done, but I seriously doubt your consistency (having shot Long Range Service Rifle with an M16 before scopes).

 

[RldrNewby]

What is your testing procedure?? Are you just loading charges and deciding on load by group size? Forgive me, but thats what it appears since you refernce not finding small groups... You do know, you are NOT looking for group size when doing this part of the test.. You should be shooting your different charges, (0.2gr increments I see which is good) in Round Robin style. You should be use same headstamp brass when doing this. Biggest reason why, case capacity differences causing different pressures. That will skew your results right off the bat...

You are looking for consistent POI (Point of Impact) to identify the node. 23.2-23.4gr is pretty consistent and right there in the known 77smk/8208XBR node... 23.6gr - 24.0 POI drops down a little and is pretty consistent across those charges. You have options here. I would load up 23.3gr and do a seating depth test.

Your next step is to do a seating depth test. That is the step where you look for group size. If done properly, I guarantee you will find one group that shrinks right up and stands out from the rest....

That’s great information! I was just looking to see what charge weight grouped the best, and didn’t really grasp the concept of what this test is truly designed to achieve.

 

[padom]

Post edited with targets so you can visually see whats going on here..

 

[padom]

Have you had any luck with 8208 with Hornady 68g BTHPs without cannelure? I only did three shot groups on my initial 68g test, but the groups at lower charges blew me away. Was not expecting to see that, but was pleasantly surprised. Gotta see if I can duplicate it now and will try it with what I currently have available as far as sorted headstamp brass goes.

Nope, never bothered with them. I have shot 10's of thousands of 77smk with and without cannelure over the years out of precision AR's. They just flat out shoot, no reason to mess with anything else. Skipped right over the 69smk as well. My load and needs were for dinstance shooting out to 800yd. Which is the max effective range Ive found with my 20" AR's and 77smk.. Very consistent hits from 800 and in. Hits drop big time when you go to 1000. Yes, you get hits, but not with the consistency you do at 800 and in.

Ive recently (the last year or so) started messing with 77 TMK's and they shoot for sure but are longer so you have to push them in the case more to fit in the mag which eats up case capacity some. No biggie, they shoot great as well so far in my testing..

 

[RldrNewby]

23.2 - 23.6 is a popular range for National Match M16s and ARs.

Lapua brass with Hornady bullets is like putting random used tires on a show room Maserati. If you're going to use Lapua at least try some Sierra 69s or Berger 73s.

1,000 yards out of a 16-inch barrel can be done, but I seriously doubt your consistency (having shot Long Range Service Rifle with an M16 before scopes).

I did try some Factory Federal Gold Medal 73g Berger’s out of my rifle early on, and the rifle REALLY liked them, so that’s definitely an option to explore.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

If i may make one recommendation before you try pushing pressure limits... get an adjustbale gas block. You need to help control the pressure that the case is being extracted under. If you're not doing that, it can lead to seeing presure signs before you actually get high pressure.

Also, I've had good results with 77s and IMR-4064. its pretty slow, and you wont be breaking any velocity records, but its a good powder for heavier bullets. You don't need to abuse your rifle or brass, let the bullet do the work.

 

[RldrNewby]

What is your testing procedure?? Are you just loading charges and deciding on load by group size? Forgive me, but thats what it appears since you refernce not finding small groups... You do know, you are NOT looking for group size when doing this part of the test.. You should be shooting your different charges, (0.2gr increments I see which is good) in Round Robin style. You should be use same headstamp brass when doing this. Biggest reason why, case capacity differences causing different pressures. That will skew your results right off the bat...

You are looking for consistent POI (Point of Impact) to identify the node. 23.2-23.4gr is pretty consistent and right there in the known 77smk/8208XBR node... 23.6gr - 24.0 POI drops down a little and is pretty consistent across those charges. You have options here. I would load up 23.3gr and do a seating depth test.

Your next step is to do a seating depth test. That is the step where you look for group size. If done properly, I guarantee you will find one group that shrinks right up and stands out from the rest....

Here is my load development with 8208XBR and 77smk out of a WOA 20: 1:7 SDM barrel all at 100yd

This is my initial OCW looking for the node (consistent POI across various consecutive charges).. You can see, my POI is very consistent from 23.2gr to 23.8gr. I picked 23.6gr being pretty much in the middle of this very wide node... If not knowledgable about how to do proper load development, you would think Im crazy as 23.6gr is one of the largest groups. But doesnt bother me, because Im NOT looking at group size. You have to ignore it.







Now, Ive selected 23.6gr so I load up a bunch of rounds with 23.6gr and I do a seating depth test, again shot Round Robin style at 100yds..







Now here you can see the clear stand out of the seating depth my barrel/load likes. It shrunk right up, just what I was looking for. Im now ready for load confirmation test.


Here is my final load confirmation test @ 100yd. Load is confirmed, very consistent and very accurate.





Time to test at distance for final load confirmation. Not bad 0.6moa @ 546yd in a 15MPH crosswind.. I call it good at this point




This is my process for EVERY load I develop. Is it a lot of work? Yep. Does it work, time after time. Yep, every single time. Start with some same headstamp brass and restart your testing.

I do all my precision AR shooting with prepped 1xLC. There is no need to use Lapua in an AR unless you have money to burn and dont care about beating the shit out of it or loosing it.... I found zero accuracy difference testing my loads in Lapua vs prepped LC (flash holes deburred, pockets uniformed, annealed, sized, chamfer/debur).

That’s exactly what I needed to reign it in. Great tutorial! Does the seating depth process still apply when you are limited to magazine length in ARs?
Edit: Sorry, that was a dumb question I asked . Yes it does apply, but I was a little confused on one thing. In your tutorial in the seating depth Portion, were the measurements listed for COL or CBTO. I always assumed in a seating depth test one would be trying to approach lands, but that can be limited by magazine length restrictions, right? I never thought about going the other direction

 

[padom]

That’s exactly what I needed to reign it in. Great tutorial! Does the seating depth process still apply when you are limited to magazine length in ARs?
Edit: Sorry, that was a dumb question I asked . Yes it does apply, but I was a little confused on one thing. In your tutorial in the seating depth Portion, were the measurements listed for COL or CBTO. I always assumed in a seating depth test one would be trying to approach lands, but that can be limited by magazine length restrictions, right? I never thought about going the other direction

Not a stupid question. With an AR 223 Wylde chamber, you are not getting to the lands at mag length. SMK's are very jump tolerant bullets. You dont need to be near the lands to get them to group, as you can see in my targets. All measurements are CBTO which is the only way to properly measure your loaded rounds. CBTO is very consistent from bullet to bullet. Measuring to the tip is extremely inconsistent which is why we dont measure that way.

If I recall correctly, that optimal seatind depth is in the 2.245-2.248" overall length range..... So yes, I was going shorter from max mag length to find optimal seating depth and you can see I found it..... Now, I also use ASC SS 5.56 magazines which allow a much longer COAL then Magpul, etc. 2.31" roughly if I recall correctly is what you can fit in the ASC SS mags linked below...

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[supercorndogs]

Those measurements would be base to ogive. Getting close to the lands for accuracy seems to be proving an old wives tale. You can find a good spot well off the lands.

 

[padom]

Those measurements would be base to ogive. Getting close to the lands for accuracy seems to be proving an old wives tale. You can find a good spot well off the lands.

Correct. Needing to be close to the lands 100% depends on the bullet and its design. VLD's, yes. But SMK's, nope not at all. Just look at FGMM 168 and 175 SMK 308 factory ammo that measures somewhere around 2.800 but shoots lights out in ssooo many factory Rem700 308's that have an extremely long throat. The distance to the lands in the few Ive measured is in the 2.98-3.01" COAL range. Those FGMM SMK rounds are jumping a metric mile and they dont care!


And as another example, the new Sierra 77 TMK's are optimal at a longer COAL than 77 SMK but that makes perfect sense. Because TMK's are longer in the nose than SMK's, you need to move it forward more to get the ogive of the bullet closer to the lands.... If your tracking me... Optimal OAL with my 77 TMK's is in the 2.275" COAL range for my gun.. Wont run in a Magpul but runs with plenty of room left in my ASC SS mags.....

 

[RldrNewby]

Those measurements would be base to ogive. Getting close to the lands for accuracy seems to be proving an old wives tale. You can find a good spot well off the lands.

Good stuff!

 

[RldrNewby]

Not a stupid question. With an AR 223 Wylde chamber, you are not getting to the lands at mag length. SMK's are very jump tolerant bullets. You dont need to be near the lands to get them to group, as you can see in my targets. All measurements are CBTO which is the only way to properly measure your loaded rounds. CBTO is very consistent from bullet to bullet. Measuring to the tip is extremely inconsistent which is why we dont measure that way.

If I recall correctly, that optimal seatind depth is in the 2.45-2.48" overall length range..... So yes, I was going shorter from max mag length to find optimal seating depth and you can see I found it..... Now, I also use ASC SS 5.56 magazines which allow a much longer COAL then Magpul, etc. 2.31" roughly if I recall correctly is what you can fit in the ASC SS mags linked below...

AR-15 20 Rd .223/5.56 Stainless Steel Magazine

Get your hands on the MOST RELIABLE ar-15 magazines around. If you value quality, reliability, and toughness, our magazines are for you and your rifle.

www.ammosc.com

AR-15 10 Rd .223/5.56 Stainless Steel Magazine

Our 10 round stainless steel magazines are treated for anti-corrosion and come in a variety of finishes.

www.ammosc.com

Thank you sooo much for all the help. I really like reloading so far, but I’m finding out I was nowhere near what I needed to be with respect to my understanding on OCW, lol. I’m really OCD and err on the side of caution with regard to my actual bench technique and equipment. I have CBTO tools, and have used those measurements in my 6.5CM, and like mentioned, found them to be way more consistent than COL. I appreciate all the help each has contributed!

 

[Snuby642]

I think it's tangent ogive vs secant ogive and also the berger hybrids.

So besides Sierra and Berger who else makes good tangent ogive bullets.

I asked a factory rep for hornady and all I got was crickets.

Talking on the phone with Berger rep about a gun I have he was strait forward and said thier vld's would also not work in my application.

He took time to explain about ogives and design. Most helpful!

 

[Formosan]

Here is my load development with 8208XBR and 77smk out of a WOA 20: 1:7 SDM barrel all at 100yd

That is a great write up. Thank you. Are you shooting out of an AR15?

 

[padom]

Thank you sooo much for all the help. I really like reloading so far, but I’m finding out I was nowhere near what I needed to be with respect to my understanding on OCW, lol. I’m really OCD and err on the side of caution with regard to my actual bench technique and equipment. I have CBTO tools, and have used those measurements in my 6.5CM, and like mentioned, found them to be way more consistent than COL. I appreciate all the help each has contributed!

If you want a very detailed, step by step explanation from the man himself, read Dan Newberry's OCW. He breaks down everything, the what, the why, the how.

Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Dan Newberry OCW or Optimal Charge Weight Load Development method or system for handloading, reloading, bullets, brass, powder, primers, accurate handloads.

optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

 

[padom]

That is a great write up. Thank you. Are you shooting out of an AR15?

Yes, I posted the gun info in that write up but its a 20" White Oak SDM 1:7 223 Wylde AR15 barrel....

 

[padom]

If anyone wants to follow along or see me do the load testing again like I posted above look for my Bartlein testing/review thread in the next few weeks. I just picked up one of the special run Bartlein 20" 4 groove 1:7 223 Wylde AR barrels White Oak had a limited number of. They may still have some left but they said it was a special one off run they did. Ive shot plenty of Bartlein 5R's, but never one of their 4 grooves in an AR15... Ill be doing a full load workup and testing similar to what I posted above and it will all be in the review thread.

 

[RldrNewby]

Not a stupid question. With an AR 223 Wylde chamber, you are not getting to the lands at mag length. SMK's are very jump tolerant bullets. You dont need to be near the lands to get them to group, as you can see in my targets. All measurements are CBTO which is the only way to properly measure your loaded rounds. CBTO is very consistent from bullet to bullet. Measuring to the tip is extremely inconsistent which is why we dont measure that way.

If I recall correctly, that optimal seatind depth is in the 2.45-2.48" overall length range..... So yes, I was going shorter from max mag length to find optimal seating depth and you can see I found it..... Now, I also use ASC SS 5.56 magazines which allow a much longer COAL then Magpul, etc. 2.31" roughly if I recall correctly is what you can fit in the ASC SS mags linked below...

AR-15 20 Rd .223/5.56 Stainless Steel Magazine

Get your hands on the MOST RELIABLE ar-15 magazines around. If you value quality, reliability, and toughness, our magazines are for you and your rifle.

www.ammosc.com

AR-15 10 Rd .223/5.56 Stainless Steel Magazine

Our 10 round stainless steel magazines are treated for anti-corrosion and come in a variety of finishes.

www.ammosc.com

In your tutorialwhere you said, “If I recall correctly, that optimal seatind depth is in the 2.45-2.48" overall length range..... So yes, I was going shorter from max mag length to find optimal seating depth and you can see I found it.....“ , did you mean to say 2.245-2.248”? I was thinking 2.45-2.48” would exceed mag length, so was just wanting to make sure I understood this clearly.

 

[padom]

In your tutorialwhere you said, “If I recall correctly, that optimal seatind depth is in the 2.45-2.48" overall length range..... So yes, I was going shorter from max mag length to find optimal seating depth and you can see I found it.....“ , did you mean to say 2.245-2.248”? I was thinking 2.45-2.48” would exceed mag length, so was just wanting to make sure I understood this clearly.

Correct. I fixed my post

 

[RldrNewby]

If anyone wants to follow along or see me do the load testing again like I posted above look for my Bartlein testing/review thread in the next few weeks. I just picked up one of the special run Bartlein 20" 4 groove 1:7 223 Wylde AR barrels White Oak had a limited number of. They may still have some left but they said it was a special one off run they did. Ive shot plenty of Bartlein 5R's, but never one of their 4 grooves in an AR15... Ill be doing a full load workup and testing similar to what I posted above and it will all be in the review thread.

Very interested in seeing how it unfolds. Is there a way to follow or tag on this site, or do I just keep an eye out for it?