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Increasing .22 ammo accuracy on a budget- PNW Hillbilly hack- Anyone up for a challenge?

PDXGS

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May 31, 2009
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Northwest Oregon
I've been noodling on how to get better accuracy out of my generic/crap .22 rounds lately when the good stuff is either too expensive or not available.
I noticed several years ago that most of the Eley and SK and Wolf rounds come with sort of factory wet-lube. So I set out to see if wiping my CCI and other generic .22 rounds down with that same lube, harvested off of higher-end ammo, would have an effect.
My findings- while not scientific, indicated that the lubed rounds seemed to show a marked decrease in spread at 30 and 50 yds compared to the same rounds dry. ......enough of a difference to warrant more investigation. Test rifles were several Savage MkIIs and a CZ- all bolt action.

SO, I started looking around for lubes that were easy to use and wouldn't foul up the rifles. I also wanted something cheap, non-toxic, temperature resistant and fairly easy to find.

After trying multiple silicone greases and cooking spray oils I settled on this....Traders Joe's Coconut Cooking Oil Spray.


tempImagetDHmPv.png



I'd like some independent verification of what I'm seeing ....but it's pretty funny how well this stuff is working.
I'll still shoot a box of Wolf Or Ely when I can but this has lessened their appeal due to the stupidly high cost and general lack of availability.
 
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Try any lubricant you'd like...it won't fix all the other problems.
Won't fix primer/powder variations. Won't fix sloppy seating or poor crimps.
Can't repair factory caused bullet damage. Yes, I have tried different lubricants.

But RWS, Fiocchi Italia, Eley and SK/Lapua already know what works best. ;)
 
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If'n I was gonna do this again, what would I do?

Need 4 boxes of ammo from the same brick.
CCI SV or maybe Aguila SV, both cheap rimfire ammo.
Need a dead calm morning or an indoor range.
50 yards so as to see if the lube difference has any real effect.
2 boxes factory cartridges, 10 ten shot groups.
2 boxes of aftermarket spray lube, 10 ten shot groups.
100 shots with, 100 without. See what happens.

Educational at the very least. :D
 
Dont they use well known lubes? I think one of them is beeswax? Maybe another is paraffin.

But the competition grades may have proprietary twists, like ski wax, who knows.
 
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Though you cant fix bad ammo with a wax job, I applaud your efforts to try and improve it. Somebody has to
ignore the masses, be bold and try new things.

I personally don't believe that micro dents, scratches, case crimping etc, will be very far off from bullet to bullet. I would expect
the propellant to be the biggest variable. I have been shooting groups and have had a bullet FTF and get a substantial
dent put in the bullet and shot it anyway simply to observe the results. It had nearly no change of POI.
Now I wouldn't do that at a match but it's nice to know that a significant deformation did very little so a hairline scratch isn't
worth my concern. Meaning it's one less thing to distract me from the task at hand.
Consistent .25" ctc accuracy @ 50 yards is my current goal. !! In 1994 it was .38 (aspirin ) at 50 yards. They are fun
because they powder like miniature skeet.... That was with a $500.00 airgun and a 6.5-20 EFR Leupold scope. Now I have a pair of
Trijicon 5-50s and a 1994 Air Arms NJR 100. The blue gun is an FWB P70 high power from 2007.


I just did a quick search on the net and what I saw was opinions and suggestions. If I were looking for a good lube, I would go
on the net and see what others have failed with. IE: don't use thin spray lubes like WD40 because they will migrate into the
case. I learned that one the hard way though I don't think I used WD40.

I would also see If I could glean anything from the manufactures MSDS sheets if they have them.

What does the MSDS sheet list?
The MSDS lists the hazardous ingredients of a product, its physical and chemical characteristics (e.g. flammability, explosive properties), its
effect on human health, the chemicals with which it can adversely react, handling precautions, the types of measures that can be used to
control exposure, emergency and first ...


As far as applying the lube, you may be able to adapt the candle making approach. That is hang them nose down and dip them
50 at a time. Personally, I would use the handy bullet holder that is found in every box of decent .22 ammo as shown in the attachment.
That said, I may try and use the holder to let the bullets soak to remove the old gunk.....

""SPL bullet lube available at The Woodchuck Den Inc. Used by many top rimfire and world champion airgun shooters worldwide! The #1 lube for lead bullets!""

Have you tried PAM cooking spray yet? LoL It feels similar to the Lapua / SK lube when it dries.

You may also want to consider the lubes flash point. In certain airguns, spring guns, the firing cycle is extremely quick and
If any kind of flammable substance is on the pellet or in the compression chamber, the hot compressed air ignites it and changes
it's velocity. Airgun manufactures make lubes that have a very high flash point btw.

Compressing air from one volume to nearly zero volume heats the air ignites the combustible substance exactly like a diesel engine does.
HW made a gun called the Barakuda EL54 (1954-1981) that pulled in air and ether to act as the fuel to achieve maximum power and velocity.
Ultimately it was a failure for various reasons and now only valued as a collectable.

I know your not trying to gain energy but you may unknowingly increase the velocity by detonating the lube. That may not be bad in itself
but the dieseling process doesn't produce consistent power. At least not in airguns.

I have heard that MOS2 lubes are very bad in powder guns.... though I have forgotten why.
 

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The biggest variable with cartridge components?

The variations in weight of the bullet, brass, primer, powder each individually.
Obtain an accurate, repeatable digital scale, then disassemble a box of cartridges.
Weigh each component. What you'll learn will surprise you. It did for me. :(

Dents dings and scratches on the bullet are indicators of poor handling on the assembly line.
If the nose is beat up, then so are the drive bands and bullet heel.
If y'er drive bands are asymmetric or heel is damaged, y'er gonna catch some strays.
 
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^^^
The beauty and the curse of rimfire, we don't have to spend hours reloading but we are at the mercy of the production line quality. You pay more for the premium ammo not because it is infallible but the percentage of failure will be much smaller than Remington thunder turds for example. I still see strays that I will say "wasn't me" or conditions from CX, Midas+ and Eley Match, but they are few and far between.(But Still Annoying)
Chase the weighing, lubing, gimmicks game if it calms your brain, cause a big part shooting is mental but too many have said "NO Bueno" on those processes for me to bite.
 
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I've found that the coconut oil spray is easy to apply on the framed rounds at the bench. On colder days it thickens up and on hotter days it doesn't appear to run.
I'm not getting any indication of dieseling.
I have done the weighing/sorting by weight for Colibri subsonic rounds and a local fellow shooter has done the same with a better resulting accuracy on rodents.
I have some experience working with various lubes (loaded statement) and was working in an environment where toxicity was a huge concern- life support systems- I tried to sort through lubes that didn't have known constituents that might be less healthy to ingest....either through the skin or inhaled after firing.
I've had good success with this on even Remington shit/yellow box crap through substandard rifles.
 
Dont they use well known lubes? I think one of them is beeswax? Maybe another is paraffin.

But the competition grades may have proprietary twists, like ski wax, who knows.
I'm old enough to remember the Swix and Klister X Country ski wax tweaks and the related home brews...The same for cycling chain lube solutions before the days of TriFlow and other wonder fluids.......this is how I'm approaching my exploration of squeezing any additional performance out of crap ammo .....and it seems to help. Caveat emptor....if you buy this stuff and dont enjoy the success then you'll have something that is a pretty decent cooking oil for Thai and Indonesian foods.
 
Ok, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute.
You're talking about adding a lube to entry level ammo or maybe copper wash stuff in hopes of elevating it's consistency slightly and not suggesting that others remove the stock lube off every round then spray the secret sauce on in it's place. Because that's what you would have to do to Lapua, for example, if your lube was more firm in summer we would have to remove/wipe all the stock(gooey) lube to apply a different.
 
All I'm curious about is to find out if other shooters experience the same increase in accuracy (decrease in group spread) that I'm seeing by using spraying this stuff on shit ammo.
I'm not proposing removing any lube from existing "quality" ammo.
 
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Reposting from the silicone spray thread:
I hadn’t picked up on the date of this thread either, but can relay some of the info I gleaned from a gents tests about 2 decades ago on RFC:
1. A chemist type fellow weighed in that silicone when superheated became an acid.
2. Another gent did some exhaustive tests and claimed he got best results with bullets treated with....
Wait for it....
Preparation-H
Obviously jokes and puns ensued, but other folks claimed to test it and said he was right.

I have discussed this with a friend who has experimented with imperial die wax, as well as Hornady case lube/One-Shot, he noted an improvement on cheap ammo, but felt the application could be more uniform.
I still wonder about other potential “lubes” such as moly grease and anything with a chap-stick like consistency that doesn’t attack barrel steel.

You can “test” lubes from say Lapua, by first firing a few rounds (10-15), this lays a layer of they’re premium brew on the bore.
Now fire 5 shots of your crappy ammo. I’d be willing to bet you the first 3-4 round will group uncommonly well, with the 4-5 shots start to drift. I did this numerous times at 50 yds with various brands. This showed me the importance of either cleaning between brands, or firing 10-15 shots to negate the effects of other lubes.
 
Try any lubricant you'd like...it won't fix all the other problems.
Won't fix primer/powder variations. Won't fix sloppy seating or poor crimps.
Can't repair factory caused bullet damage. Yes, I have tried different lubricants.

But RWS, Fiocchi Italia, Eley and SK/Lapua already know what works best. ;)
I read the first post and knew instantly you would post exactly that and it would not take you long to do so. 😁
Of course what you post is true.

Need to try some of that Ely ammo.
 
I've been noodling on how to get better accuracy out of my generic/crap .22 rounds lately when the good stuff is either too expensive or not available.
I noticed several years ago that most of the Eley and SK and Wolf rounds come with sort of factory wet-lube. So I set out to see if wiping my CCI and other generic .22 rounds down with that same lube, harvested off of higher-end ammo, would have an effect.
My findings- while not scientific, indicated that the lubed rounds seemed to show a marked decrease in spread at 30 and 50 yds compared to the same rounds dry. ......enough of a difference to warrant more investigation. Test rifles were several Savage MkIIs and a CZ- all bolt action.

SO, I started looking around for lubes that were easy to use and wouldn't foul up the rifles. I also wanted something cheap, non-toxic, temperature resistant and fairly easy to find.

After trying multiple silicone greases and cooking spray oils I settled on this....Traders Joe's Coconut Cooking Oil Spray.


View attachment 7822724


I'd like some independent verification of what I'm seeing ....but it's pretty funny how well this stuff is working.
I'll still shoot a box of Wolf Or Ely when I can but this has lessened their appeal due to the stupidly high cost and general lack of availability.
Ok, so let’s see the targets.

OFG
 
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You can use whatever lube you want...it will never turn your 4" into 8".

Your idea of adding some kind of lubricant to cheap ammo in hopes of making it into Lapua Center-X is idiotic at best. That would be like adding a set of Pirelli P Zero tires to a Honda Civic in hopes of transforming the car into a Ferarri 458.
 
I'm not supporting the idea of waving a magic wand and turning crap product into something wonderful.
BUT.... I whole heartedly endorse trying new and different things. Don't be a Lemming !!
That is the only way things advance and often it can be a lot of fun.

Years ago, at my LGC and some of the guy's saw my DOPE cards and virtually laughed at me for having data for every yard.
I was not detoured and really didn't give a crap about their opinion. I mean, they were just fellow shooters so why would their
thoughts or opinions be better then mine? Some months later the World championships were held in Michigan. Naturally,
the two time world champion Nick Jenkinson came over from the UK. I did not know who he was at that point but I did take note
of his DOPE cards. My local shooters were pretty surprised when they saw that he collected data for every yard also.

We all know that our bullets go through a section of trajectory that is nearly flat and I could skip that entire section If I wanted to
but one of the benefits to getting DOPE for every yard is that it forces me to practice more. It also gives me the utmost confidence
in my numbers. Plenty of people have said to not bother with sizing, weighing and sorting ammo. When I do all of that, I have an
opportunity to examine every projectile and shit can any that don't measure up. That helps the confidence too because I know
that I have done everything it takes to win. When you are prepared, you don't end up distracting yourself with questions
like, was that miss bad ammo?..... have my stock screws come loose?..... or my scope mounts?.... etc.
I have heard all manner of excuses from people after missing a shot. They almost always blame the equipment.

Shooting is a discipline. It takes tremendous mental effort and discipline to get focused and stay focused for
40 lanes with two or three targets per lane that may take five or six hours to complete. It can get mighty hot and humid
in the summer and we don't shoot under a roof. Field Target is simulated hunting so we are out in the woods with the
fire ants etc.

Our LGC was hosting a multi state match and I ended up being the last shooter with two targets to go.
I was evaluating one of my targets.... range, wind, slope. A guy I didn't know came up behind me and said: "If you get this shot you'll
have a shoot off against Jim Stanis". The top Michigan shooter at the time. I had never beat Jim and it came as a complete Suprise.
After about a ten second pause.... he said: If you get them both you'll have a shoot off against me". That got my attention
because I didn't even know who this dick wad was.

I got them both.... I happened to be looking in my scope when he took his first shot and he kicked up a dust cloud. I thought,
what the hell, it looked twenty feet short. Well.... I didn't miss and was the match winner. As it turned out, Duane was a
great guy to shoot with and we always had a good time when we met up. I was a Michigan shooter and he was Ia top
shooter in Indiana.

Mental focus makes a tremendous difference.

Savor your victories !!
 

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I reckon 'go for it'.
What do you have to lose? The ammo is cheap/crappy anyway.
I shot Eley Tenex in my Martini many years ago (it was the 'best' we could get in NZ).
Compared it with cheap SV ammo and one thing I did notice was that the Eley had a uniform light coverage of wax.
Even today I checked out some Geco (rebadged cheap RWS stuff).
The wax was all over the shop sort of thing. Odd wee lumps/drips/spots, etc.
The bullet was 'deformed' in shape from the gloppy wax job. The drips were obviously right on the point of the bullet so I'm sure that affects the flight through the air to the target.
So yeah, I can see that this idea has merit. It can be all about removing a crappy wax/lubricant job and putting on a better, more even coating.
Definitely worth trying. If nothing else it gives you an excuse for more range time...and that's not a bad thing.
 
I remember a thread at Rimfire Central a few (20?) years back speculating about the secret sauce on Wolf Match Target and SK.
Some speculated it was wax, some speculated it was lanolin.
I don't know but it is unique in my experience and it is pretty thin and greasy.
Good luck with the experiment.
22lr is my favorite cartridge to shoot and a constant source of interesting ideas.
 
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I tried this once using the plastic top tray from a cartridge box and then put liquid Alox into the bottom at a level just to coat the bullets. I dipped 100 or so and let them dry. I think I used either Federal and Winchester wildcat.

It didn't seem to make enough of a difference at 50 yards to be noticeable but IIRC it wasn't optimum conditions to really test. The wildcat ammo used to be really accurate at 25 yards 30 years ago so I think that's why I was trying it. Might be worth trying again under better conditions.
 
The man is just trying to improve cheap ammo, not turn it into center-x🤦🏻. Stop being naysayers and get out of your comfort zone every once in a while. If you wouldn’t do it great, don’t, but how is it helpful to immediately shut down his ideas. Imagine if you could turn .6 averages into .5 or better yet .5 into .4. I think that is a worthwhile pursuit.

PDXGS Im pretty sure I read back in the 90s the lube Eley uses is 50% beef talo 50% wax. You could give that a try. Good luck!
 
Thanks! I wouldn't be surprised about the tallow and wax.
I had considered using lard in one of my experiments....but the spray kitchen lubes are easier to apply and likely won't go rancid while waiting on the shelf.
I'm hoping to do a small/conrolled experiment this weekend....weather permitting. Control group will be out of the box/dry CCI or Remington crap. Experimental group will be sprayed with coconut oil spray at the bench.
 
what you do is totally up to you . send video's
popcorn check
lawn chair check
cold drink check
napkin to clean up after seeing video of someone blowing them self up check .
yup all set .
 
It would be nice if we could buy whatever they use at the factory as a lube if nothing else but to refresh old dryed up old ammo.

I have some Eley Tenex thats been laying around a while and the lube is now dry and chalky. I would like to freshen it up, because it no longer shoots like it once did in my Annie.

Thought of using case lube, but ideally a proper over the counter product would be great. I'm assuming its little more than an emulsification of bees wax and some sort of oil or grease. Probably similar formulation to a skin moisturizer recipe but without the water.
 
Will adding a different lubricant improve accuracy?

Unlikely. :(

Why?

Lubricant isn't a major contributor to accuracy.
Changing lubricants, more lubricant aren't going to fix the true problems.

What are the real problems?

Crappy cartridges. Beat up, poorly made, large variations in primer/powder,
sloppy assembly, lack of uniformity in components.

Those are the true problems.
Changing lubricants is similar to putting lipstick on a pig.
Makes it look different, but underneath it's still a pig.

:D
 
I dont think I would call Eley Tennex a pig just because I've had it a while. I'm certain some fresh lube is all it needs.
 
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I've shot oxidized Tenex.
One box was just as consistent as when new.
Another threw a few strays, but I had that happen with new Tenex.
Was it the oxidized lube or a less than stellar box of Tenex?

 
Will adding a different lubricant improve accuracy?

Unlikely. :(

Why?

Lubricant isn't a major contributor to accuracy.
Changing lubricants, more lubricant aren't going to fix the true problems.

What are the real problems?

Crappy cartridges. Beat up, poorly made, large variations in primer/powder,
sloppy assembly, lack of uniformity in components.

Those are the true problems.
Changing lubricants is similar to putting lipstick on a pig.
Makes it look different, but underneath it's still a pig.

:D
Dunno where you got that theory, but it’s bogus.
Shoot 15 rounds of the ol Wolf Match Target, SK Standard Plus, or Center-X, then fire 5 rounds of darn near any bulk crap. The first 3-4 of the second ammo will group better than any following after the first lube is burned out of the bore. I’ve proven this time and again.
 
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...and yet, even if you relubricate the entire box, you still end up with strays and fliers.
Small sample sizes lead to incorrect conclusions, remember?

Grab a box of CCI SV.
Dump them into a can of SK Magazine.
Allow the excess SK lube to coat the CCI cartridges.
Send a box of SK Rifle Match.
Then send those SK lubed CCI cartridges.
Will the lube fix those CCI problems? No.

Random acts of accuracy don't count.
Has to be repeatable for the entire box. :D
 
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...and yet, even if you relubricate the entire box, you still end up with strays and fliers.
Small sample sizes lead to incorrect conclusions, remember?

Grab a box of CCI SV.
Dump them into a can of SK Magazine.
Allow the excess SK lube to coat the CCI cartridges.
Send a box of SK Rifle Match.
Then send those SK lubed CCI cartridges.
Will the lube fix those CCI problems? No.

Random acts of accuracy don't count.
Has to be repeatable for the entire box. :D
Hmmm, so by that rationale and my experience, firing 15 SK, and then staggering loads at two different targets- 1 for the SK, one for the CCI should work.
How many rounds would be worthwhile for your statistical sample?
 
Try a box of each obx. I'd like to see the results.
Use y'er chronograph too....I like data.
Pick a good morning with minimal wind or use an indoor range.
I'd be happy to build the group aggregates for both cartridges.:D
 
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Try a box of each obx. I'd like to see the results.
Use y'er chronograph too....I like data.
Pick a good morning with minimal wind or use an indoor range.
I'd be happy to build the group aggregates for both cartridges.:D
I’m liking how this is sounding.
I can only do outdoors, but can manage any distance out to 400 yards. As I can’t predict results past 100 in either cartridge (no testing experience), I’ll stick with 100yds. Control groups of 25 CCI SV first, clean, then 25 Wolf MT fired at first 2 targets.
Then proceed with one shot of each at two separate targets.
I predict the CCI will show a marked improvement over the control group. Best I can offer with the amount of the Wolf I have left. I’ll chronograph all rounds, and will adjust impacts so I don’t shoot away my aiming point.
Aside from weather conditions, what else should I record?
 
Sounds good.
Only data that's important is results on target,
with chrony data to explain the vertical spread.
5 shot groups is fine. Set the scope at the start.
Adjust a few clicks off point of impact.
I'll build the aggregates relative to the aimpoints for each group.
Let's see what happens, you've got me extremely curious.
 
Sounds good.
Only data that's important is results on target,
with chrony data to explain the vertical spread.
5 shot groups is fine. Set the scope at the start.
Adjust a few clicks off point of impact.
I'll build the aggregates relative to the aimpoints for each group.
Let's see what happens, you've got me extremely curious.
Well, looks like I’m eating crow😉
I ran the last of my WolfMT stash against CCI SV. Buddy of mine said that was a mistake as they both have close to the same lube (he said it shares the properties of imperial die wax).
Constant interruptions on a public range, but enough excuses, here’s the set-up, humble as it is:
3D139AE4-3655-4380-97DD-76783148334A.jpeg

View from the scope:
92EDAF32-1582-4894-99DC-198557CB0EE4.jpeg

And best data I could provide.
The SpotShot recorded the hits, so I could number them and they can be cross referenced with the recorded velocities.
I was dreadfully disappointed in my groups, have been spending far to much time in other disciplines, but screw it, I’m honest with you.
D2284E64-D560-440C-842C-B536B40DAC73.jpeg
 
I don't think that was you obx.
That looks like cartridge quality problems.
The ES you show is typical of my CCI SV and Wolf cartridges.
At 100 yards what you produced matches my 50 at 100 yard clusters. :(
 
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Just for giggles I ran the final rounds through a ‘55 Win.52C w/Tasco barrel mounted 24X scope. Chronograph battery had died, but I did the exact same shooting process:
A10CA67D-7BE9-44B8-ACF5-69536F4847FA.jpeg
 
I don't think that was you obx.
That looks like cartridge quality problems.
The ES you show is typical of my CCI SV and Wolf cartridges.
At 100 yards what you produced matches my 50 at 100 yard clusters. :(
I just remembered, if it’s important I can dig up the lot numbers. It was an interesting exercise, and I do plan on repeating it with CCI and something else, say Federal Automatch.
 
If you really want to see how bad cartridge quality will mess with you, try a Grid.
Then build the target aggregate group size.
Same total spread whether one dot one shot results or 5 shot groups.

Even on dead calm mornings and doing everything right,
strays and fliers caused by crappy cartridges. Annoying as heck.
 
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If you really want to see how bad cartridge quality will mess with you, try a Grid.
Then build the target aggregate group size.
Same total spread whether one dot one shot results or 5 shot groups.

Even on dead calm mornings and doing everything right,
strays and fliers caused by crappy cartridges. Annoying as heck.
We are definitely at the mercy of the ammo. I expect a cone of fire, but have been wondering lately, just how small that cone needs to be before a tuner will show improvement. So very much to test and learn.
 
Thanks for the effort guys!
I may have time this weekend to pursue some simple tests of cheap ammo, sorted by weight....with and without lube. May run the same variable on a semi-auto as well as a bolt gun.
 
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Try SPG lube---

It's a pretty popular lube for black powder rifles. The ingredients are beeswax, sheep tallow, and paraffin., (with the sheep tallow you get lanolin). I think there are a lot of similarities between black powder cartridge shooting and the lowly .22RF.

from another forum, the "home brew formula for SPG lube. the real stuff can be purchased from Midway USA or DIxie Gun Works:
2 parts by weight Paraffin wax
2 parts by weight Sheep Tallow (Dixie Gun Works)
1 part by weight Beeswax

"The stuff looks like SPG, and has the same consistency and feel.
I'm pretty frugal and didn't like the idea of spending $30 a pound on SPG, either. Especially when I can make a dead ringer at about $5 a pound!
I bought a large pile of the sheep tallow from Dixie gun Works for about $3 a pound. It's very reasonable price. You can use beef tallow, but the sheep variety has lanolin in it.
The melting point of the lube is about 140 degrees Fahrenheit. It works well in cold to warm climates, may be a bit low in melting point for desert work."


I've been shooting ARA factory benchrest for a couple of years. The rules state that I can't put anything on the factory bullets, (and I would never ever cheat!), but the rules don't say anything about coating my bore. After each card I clean my rifle with Bore Tech C4, run a few patches to dry the bore, then rub some SPG lube on a patch to "season" my barrel. Before I used the SPG lube, I might have to run 15-20 rounds down the barrel to get it seasoned. After I started using the lube, my first shot is always high left and about 20 fps slower than all the next rounds. I shoot two-three more rounds into the sighter to confirm my poi is good, then I go for score. I figure I've saved at least brick of ammo over the two years in doing what I do, at 40 cents per round, that's $200.

This is not exactly what you're trying to do, but there are some similarities in what you are doing, and what I do. You could dip the bullets, but I think all you really need to do is wipe some of the lube into the driving bands of the bullet to get the results you want.

And I agree with what some others have posted here; that if you first shoot some well lubricated bullets and then shoot some of the cheap stuff with little or no lube on them, the first 10-15 rounds of the cheap stuff is more accurate until the lube is burned off in the barrel.
 
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