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Induction Annealing Discussion

Undrgrndprdcts

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Minuteman
Feb 15, 2017
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So it looks like induction annealing does not necessarily leave the same patterns on brass as flame. How can you tell if your brass is where you want it with induction? It's definitely melting 700 Tempilaq on the inside. 3.5 seconds does this and leaves the case body warm-hot to the touch but you can touch it. Some slight discoloration occurs, almost like dulling of the brass, maybe some slight bluing, its hard to tell. Also, we pretty much have it set to where its maybe 10 thousands past the shoulder. Can anyone share pictures, tips, advice on their induction annealing process?
 
You can't go by discoloration. Brass discoloration varies depending on how you cleaned it and how many times you annealed and reloaded it. I use a 650 degree tempilstik as a minimum and thumbnail to the case mouth as a maximum. If my thumb nail is able to indent the case mouth, the neck is too soft.
 
I should have worded that better. I realize you can't go by discoloration. I guess I'm saying it was hard to find a reference point, since there is almost no discoloration. The only things I know is that is melts 700 Tempilaq on the inside of the neck, yet it doesn't feel any softer to the hand when finished. I guess my question is for fine tuning induction annealing. Our unit is very consistent. I'm mostly looking for help as to the little details on when its hot enough, yet hasn't gone too far.
 
Do the thumb nail test. If it bends the case mouth it's too soft. Your nail will give before the case mouth will.
 
Ok my buddy just tested a few more. 5 seconds actually looks good and he said it started to glow slightly right before it shut off. 6 seconds you are able to dent the case mouth with finger nail.
 
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Able to dent the case mouth very slightly with a lot of fingernail pressure (made my thumb hurt) on the ones at 5 seconds. Is that too far?
 
Did you build your own annealer, ala gina eric style? If not what are you using?

What cases are you annealing?

Put the tempilaq on the outside where you can actually see it on the neck down past the shoulders. You want it in only long enough for it to begin to turn clear down to the base of the shoulders. I use the 750 so the 700 may be a different composition but my tempilaq once dry will go from green, to clear, to black where it almost looks just like a sooty case mouth. My understanding is that the temp is achieved when the paint first starts to change phase and not once it has all burned off because once it has all burned off you have been at (and thus way past) the temp for too long.

I also position the neck shoulder junction in the middle of the annealing field. If the middle of the neck is in the middle with the shoulders further back out of the field it caused the neck to go clear way before the shoulders ever actually did signaling an uneven annealing job on the case. If I cooked it to where the shoulders turned the neck would have been at temp for 1 second longer than the tempilaq signaled it should have been. Moving the center point to the shoulder neck junction made it so both the shoulders and neck turned at the same time signaling an even job to me.


This is my annie and some 223 brass I tested on when I first got it, you can see the progression: 2 cases at each time interval, one with tempilaq and one without. 6 different intervals. On the left side was too little time in, on the right side was too much time. You can see that the tempilaq doesnt melt on those on the left and on the right it melts down too far past. What youre looking for is the point middle ground when the paint transition is just migrating off the shoulders like in the fourth pair from the left (right under the power switch). It has gone clear through the shoulders and is just starting to turn on the body.
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Thats my understanding of it and the use of tempilaq in an induction setting. Your 700 may require migrating a bit further downward but if you can see the brass glowing you are likely getting too hot from my studies.

I just got some 450 in to test on the bodies and I should be annealing a batch of 50 after this weekend. Ill report back with a similar pic (provided I remember in a few days) but with the two different types used to see just how far down the cases the heat migrates. 1.6 seconds in the annealer turns the neck and shoulder tempilaq and I have to drop that bitch like its hot quick so Im sort of concerned about the downward heat transfer. Especially on my 300bo brass.
 
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Annealer is a larger commercial unit used to braze tools together here at work. Coil placement agrees with what you mentioned. Going to be annealing 6.5CM, 243 etc. Preliminary test cases are 7-08. I'll probably do some 300WSM later too. Thanks for all the info, we will try it that way to see what happens. Although I have a feeling the Tempilaq will be solid black at 5 seconds lol.
 
How large a field does your industrial annealer create? If it too large youre not concentrating it on the neck but the entire case. Any lower temp stuff too see what the case heads are doing?
 
Not sure on the field. Is that a value on the machine? The physical size of coil is roughly 1 inch inside diameter and covers roughly half inch of vertical, centered at the neck/shoulder junction. Don't have lower temp tester. Can pick up the cases when they are done though. Why do you ask? Do they look wrong? I thought they looked pretty good..
 
No, just curious.

The field is just the size of your coil. Your coil size should be just fine from what Ive read on people making their own and experimenting with the sizes.
If you can hold them they are fine. Lot more material to move through on a 7-08 than my little 223s. I'm curious to start with my 3006 cases eventually and see how cool those long ones are.
 
Ok got ya. They are about as hot as a fired case. I'm thinking 4.75-5 seconds is the sweet spot for these size cases. Tempilaq was about a 1/16 higher on the case at 4.75.
 
And this whole song and dance, ladies and gentleman, is why I will again engage in a shameless plug for the AMP Annealer.

It's a good chunk of dough at 1k, but after fucking with Tempilaq and using the dimly lit room/maroon glow visual method for so long, it's a pleasure to not have to even think about the temperature now.
 
5 seconds.

Way too hot on those two 5 second pics. The zinc has fried out of the mix with the copper.

Start with some shiny brass tumbled in corn cob or tumbled with stainless pins. Get your annealer set up and turn out the lights in the room. Creep up on the time until you just see the neck glow. You may have to have to dial in a little more time beyond this for proper annealing. The best indication for a proper anneal is to look at where the brass changed from a shiny finish to a matte or frosty surface finish. I usually set my time so I get the matte finish to show up just below my shoulders. When done this way, my necks are a matte straw color, not coppery like an over annealed case.
 
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From the op's first pic above, the left case is pretty much an ideal anneal. The right one shows a little bit more time or a different location in the annealer coil, but by no means over annealed.
 


From the op's first pic above, the left case is pretty much an ideal anneal. The right one shows a little bit more time or a different location in the annealer coil, but by no means over annealed.

Those are 5 and 6 seconds. 6 actually was over annealed as I could bend the neck with my fingers. The two that look copperish are because that's what color the tempilaq turned.
 
Buddy said he was gonna run 140 cases of 243 through at 4.5 seconds after work Friday. I'll see what he says on how they looked and loaded on Monday.
 
And this whole song and dance, ladies and gentleman, is why I will again engage in a shameless plug for the AMP Annealer.

It's a good chunk of dough at 1k, but after fucking with Tempilaq and using the dimly lit room/maroon glow visual method for so long, it's a pleasure to not have to even think about the temperature now.

Amen.....
 
For me, 15 minutes of time figuring out what setting to use (once) on the machine is worth it to save 1000 dollars.
 
For me, 15 minutes of time figuring out what setting to use (once) on the machine is worth it to save 1000 dollars.

How do you know that after your 15 minutes of messing with it, your cases are hitting the annealed temperature?
 
How do you know that after your 15 minutes of messing with it, your cases are hitting the annealed temperature?

That was the point of this post. Collective knowledge on reading tempilaq patterns and case coloration.
 
That was the point of this post. Collective knowledge on reading tempilaq patterns and case coloration.

I get it man, but honestly, there are many variables to this, it's difficult to compile accurate data on this subject. I've seen so much and have fiddled with Tempilaq so much, that I said "fuck it," and went with the dimly lit room method. There was too much inconsistency regarding the available information, which looked something like this: "Use 650 Tempilaq;" "Use 750 Tempilaq'" "Paint the outside of the necks." Nope! "Paint the inside of the necks, but don't use the 750 Tempilaq because then your brass will be over annealed, so use the 650 and paint it on the inside of the necks." "Use the Tempilaq sticks." Nope! "Use the Tempilaq paint because the sticks don't allow the Tempilaq to stick on the cases."

There's definitely more where those statements came from. For me, it was a consistency issue. Was I annealing my brass? I have no clue, really.

You have friends that reload? Best thing to do is to have a few guys pitch in the dough and get the thing done.
 
Here's some of my induction annealed .308 brass using an Induction Solutions automotive induction heater with my own hand wound #10 AWG 7 turn coil. This is 7.5 seconds anneal time. Anneal times will vary depending on what frequency and wattage your particular unit runs at. These cases have had shoulders bumped in a body die, which is the reason why the body of the cases aren't near as shiny as when they come straight out of the pin tumbler. IMG_1865.JPG
 
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Those look similar to mine. I'm assuming you guys are getting single digit sds and consistency over multiple loadings with these techniques? Ultimately thats what I'm (we) are after.
 
Just because I said I would follow up, this is a normal case, the next three are 1.6 seconds and the next 4 are 1.7 seconds. Green is 750 and purple is 400. You can tell that the 1.7 is just a bit more done in the shoulder and what I was using before and though the paint is actually lower on them you can still see where the line is just a bit lower than the 1.6. The additional 6% time between the two benefited the shoulders yet had minimal impact on the body of the cases.

IMG_1702.JPG
 
Those look similar to mine. I'm assuming you guys are getting single digit sds and consistency over multiple loadings with these techniques? Ultimately thats what I'm (we) are after.

Yes, my SDs are single digit when I am on a good node with my powder and bullet combo. Bullet seating efforts are consistent across multiple loadings.
 
Just because I said I would follow up, this is a normal case, the next three are 1.6 seconds and the next 4 are 1.7 seconds. Green is 750 and purple is 400. You can tell that the 1.7 is just a bit more done in the shoulder and what I was using before and though the paint is actually lower on them you can still see where the line is just a bit lower than the 1.6. The additional 6% time between the two benefited the shoulders yet had minimal impact on the body of the cases.


Wow! Sub 2 second times! I might just have to get myself one of those Fluxeon Annie setups! How reliable has your unit been? I have seen some QC issues mentioned over on the Accurate Shooter forum about some of these units.
 
Wow! Sub 2 second times! I might just have to get myself one of those Fluxeon Annie setups! How reliable has your unit been? I have seen some QC issues mentioned over on the Accurate Shooter forum about some of these units.

Keep in mind that it's 223, it won't take as long as larger cases. But with that in mind it's been fine.
I was kind of disappointed in the lead time they have after order I didn't realize existed and there's a couple spots in the annozidation of the shell that aren't great looking that made me feel uneasy about its actual quality but as far as function and operation goes it's worked without a hitch.
It's damn easy and fast. Maybe not Giraud hopper fast or easy but if you're motivated you have that option available to you. I think it may be faster than an amp because you don't have a shell holder to fiddle with. I'm sure there's some argument to precision of it vs the amp as the Annie depends on your fingers to control the depth round to round but I doubt anyone could measure it.
 
I also use a Fluxeon Annie, on 6.5 CM cycle time is 1.8 hornady, 2.0 nosler, 2.4 Lapua. I built a trapdoor setup that controls the position of the brass in the coil. When cycle is complete I open the trapdoor and the brass drops into a container. Might add that I am using the water cooled coil.
 
I did materials analysis on metals for many years and thus learned about hardness testing, microhardness, etc. Thus, when I got in the market for a brass annealer, the methods used by the AMP guys appealed to my inner nerd.

https://www.ampannealing.com/about-brass-hardness/

I don't have any proof that the AMP is a superior device, but the content on their site game me that warm and fuzzy, credit card peeling from the wallet kind of comfort. I just like it that they actually measured and characterized their process. I know there is some merit to painting Tempilaq but I'd rather see actual measurements. From the above link:

"So how quickly do case necks work-harden with reloading? The answer is: really quickly. Just one pass through a standard resizing die with an expander ball is usually enough to add 20 HV + to the hardness. Seating the bullet adds another 5 – 10 HV."
 
Does anyone else warm their induction annealer up with scrap cases? I run a dozen scrap cases through before I anneal the good stuff. This brings the system up to temp as the annealing cycle time is effected. Fluxeon recommends this.
 
Does anyone else warm their induction annealer up with scrap cases? I run a dozen scrap cases through before I anneal the good stuff. This brings the system up to temp as the annealing cycle time is effected. Fluxeon recommends this.

I do and I actually tested it and it does warm up. The first couple did a bit but it wasn't dramatic but the next 5 or 6 did show a noticeable shift gradually melting a bit lower with each one and that's as far as my testing went as I ran out of cases I had painted and proved to myself that it does warm up and fluxeon wasn't bullshitting me. So I keep a little baggy of some dedicated warm up cases and it takes all of minute to do.