Intel Gathering

[Louis Corkern]

Good Day Everyone,

I would like to open a discussion in regards to a couple things. And here is what got me curious. For years the weapon systems and cartridges that were considered HTI systems were also used as ELR systems, but in the past few years there has been vast improvement in the ELR systems in regards to reaching further and more accurately than the HTI systems can.But those ELR systems are NO GOOD for HTI stuff.

So my question is:
1. What do you guys use as determining factor when you getting ready to build/buy one of the "big guns"?
2. Why do you choose one over the over in regards to the system and cartridge you decide on.

Thanks

 

[runngun]

Re: Intel Gathering

I have been considering ELR for a while. The reason I haven't pursued it because I don't have a place nearby that I can shoot >1500 yards. If I have to travel more than 3 or 4 hours to shoot, then I wont have enough opportunity to shoot to make it worth wile.

I have decided that it will make more sense to get a .338LM conversion for my DTA SRS than get an ELR system that I might never be able to use to full potential.

If I ever live some place that I can shoot ELR nearby, I'm getting a 375/408.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Intel Gathering

This was the very question that I had when considering the Chey Tac system. I know the 375 has better ballistic in terms of longer range, but it's hard to disprove the fact that the 408 Chey Tac can pack a heavier punch and stay accurate longer than the 338 LM or 50 BMG. For sure, the 50 BMG will trumph all when it comes to HTI, especially with the wide range of bullet tips availability. I think the best option is to have two systems in one action platform. I am talking about a 408 Chey Tac, and 50 BMG together. It's easy to swap out a barrel and then you have mission specific equipment.

EDM is what I am talking about. Just a thought. Be curious to see what other ELR shooters think.

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: Intel Gathering

Desert, The 408 CT takes over in ft/lbs after about 700 yards compared to the bmg. The 375 does at around 900 yards. Just something to think about.

If anything needs to happen to make a HTI weapon more useful for both i believe its in the bullets and barrel material. Its just gonna be tough to make a platform to fit both and be a mobile system.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Intel Gathering

I have absolutely no foray into HTI, but when I was looking at an ELR system, I was basically looking to stretch the limits of range. Second determining factor was energy at a distance for hunting purposes. For what I am doing a .338 LM or even one of the big .30s would work, but I didn't want to necessitate upgrading later, so I decided upon the .375-408, buy once cry once right? This caliber can be reloaded comparable to match ammo and comparable to reloading for the .338LM, and can out distance and out punch it, so that's what my reasonings were. If I was looking at HTI, I am sure my decision would have been different, but a soft target (ie antelope) at 1000+ doesn't dictate that

DD

 

[steve123]

Re: Intel Gathering

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Day Everyone,

I would like to open a discussion in regards to a couple things. And here is what got me curious. For years the weapon systems and cartridges that were considered HTI systems were also used as ELR systems, but in the past few years there has been vast improvement in the ELR systems in regards to reaching further and more accurately than the HTI systems can.But those ELR systems are NO GOOD for HTI stuff.

So my question is:
1. What do you guys use as determining factor when you getting ready to build/buy one of the "big guns"?
2. Why do you choose one over the over in regards to the system and cartridge you decide on.

Thanks </div></div>

Later,

The only HTI I ever plan on shooting is on steel.

The main reason I got my 375CT was that it stays sonic to almost 2900 yards with the 350 Hookers and blows less in the wind than other chamberings.

Also the size of the 375/408 rifles is a more handy size with less recoil and muzzle blast compared to 50 cal.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here so I'm just commenting for those shooters who are thinking about ELR rigs.

I'm curious.Why wouldn't a 375/408 be good for HTI compared to 50 at ELR distances.Is there such a thing as armor piercing tipped 375/408 out there?

Steve

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Intel Gathering

You got there before I did there Steve. I think a good AP in .375 or .408 would give all that is needed for HTI. It does not take a large hole in a solid rocket booster or liquid fuel tank to "F" up a rocket. I am sure the penetration of said rounds is paramount in HTI. Playing around with AP tungsten core .50 rounds have been very accurate and tungsten being so dense is very stable.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: Intel Gathering

From a .mil perspective, HTI requires a bullet with decent payload capability and from what I can see, .50BMG is the starting point for that. I think the .408 is just too small to develop something effective for HTI such as Mk211 (though, I wouldn't say that's impossible). Even larger rounds such as 14.5mm and 20mm have even greater payload capability, yet they tend to having increasing drawbacks ballistically because they are being shoulder fired in a rifle versus a fixed platform.

HTI in general appears to be more and more of a niche mission compared to in the past. The main reason for this is the accuracy of the latest generation precision munitions. While being able to infiltrate a team close to a target and engage at stand-off distance is desirable, it has many drawbacks that aren't present when using precision munitions.

So when looking at an ELR platform, if you need payload capability (ie explosive/incendiary) then you have to look at larger calibers such as .50BMG. However if you're engaging "softer" targets such as personnel, then a ballistically superior round like .375 or .408 Cheytac makes more sense. Personally, I think .408 gives one the best balance.

 

[djd]

Re: Intel Gathering

Just FYI. There has been 408AP ammo for several years. It's being made, shipped and used now. It's not API, but AP with a 185 gr. tungsten penetrator. It's pretty nasty because of it's speed, and also it's accuracy.

 

[Starbuck]

Re: Intel Gathering

Is the 408AP available to civilians? If so where?
-SSP

 

[desertHK]

Re: Intel Gathering

Now if the 408 AP is available, then I'll take that over the 50 BMG any day.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Intel Gathering

I think what is killing the art of ELR HTI is the droid planes they have flying around now. I think they can carry a payload and can travel anywhere without detection basically. Now pushing the limits... game on. I think the envelope can be pushed much further than we currently are, sub MOA groups at 2000+ ?? Where will it go? 1 shot hits at 2000+?? It is an exciting area for certain.

DD

 

[steve123]

Re: Intel Gathering

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Day Everyone,

I would like to open a discussion in regards to a couple things. And here is what got me curious. For years the weapon systems and cartridges that were considered HTI systems were also used as ELR systems, but in the past few years there has been vast improvement in the ELR systems in regards to reaching further and more accurately than the HTI systems can.But those ELR systems are NO GOOD for HTI stuff.

So my question is:
1. What do you guys use as determining factor when you getting ready to build/buy one of the "big guns"?
2. Why do you choose one over the over in regards to the system and cartridge you decide on.

Thanks </div></div>

Oh....Not to mention!

There's nothing quite as exiting for a gun enthusiast than hitting a target at 2500Y.

You can actually have a short conversation while you're watching for the impact.

Steve

 

[djd]

Re: Intel Gathering

DD above has a good HTI point.

As the battlefield changes, so must the tactics. In WWII and Korea if you were talking about shooting "armor" with shoulder fired AP, chances are it had a larger gun than you do! But, bullets were made for this and other similar purposes then. The battlefield sometimes changes faster than the ammo. Ref. the 5.56 ammo issue for example. AP is no different.

Today there is a need for AP that can be placed with <span style="font-weight: bold">precision</span> at a stand off distance on "hardened" targets (not armor of the old sense). If soft targets must be engaged with the same ammo, it also, can be done with very high reliability.

The 408 solid is a very good penetrator on it's own when compared to lead core bullets, and some older vintage 50AP with only steel inserts. That fact alone covers a large spectrum. Then 408AP, is in the same class as 50 SLAP which is considered the ultimate penetrator. 408AP accuracy is about 10-20+ MOA better though!

I'm only speaking of generalities above. Nothing mission specific, as there is always the preferred rifle and/or bullet for a specific task, and an exception to most rules. I do agree with Louis, that ELR guys started out having to use tools designed for HTI because they were the only tool available at the time. Since then rifles such as the 338 Lapua and others are starting to change the game. ELR is not "HTI rifle" specific anymore.

djd