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Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

long range fire

Private
Minuteman
Jun 25, 2008
33
0
WA, USA
There appears quite a few changing out the bottom metal and hinged mag plate to detachable magazine. I'm wondering if the DM is an important feature in sniper rifle?
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

It is to some, not to others. Personally, I love the convenience and extra capacity offered by the DBM system. Both my Savage and My remington 700 are in the process of getting DBMs installed by CDI Precision.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Well, I don't have DBMs, but I'm not a sniper either.

I can definitely see where a DBM allows the shooter to spend more time focused on engaging targets, and less time on loading the rifle.

There was an account of a Marine sniper in A-Stan a few months back. his unit was ambushed by a numerically superior force. He engaged and killed something like 30 or so enemy in rapid succesion. I don't know if his rifle was DBM equipped or not, but it would have been a distinct advantage.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Often times a drop mag also permits the use of cartridges with a longer OAL, allowing the use of higher BC bullets.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

I think it's a matter of providing additional options.

A fixed, top loading magazine can be limiting when high volume fire, perhaps rapid fire, needs to be performed.

Personally, I have reservations about subjecting a precision rifle to such severe service, and consider this type of service to be far more suited to a Designated Marksman role and rifle.

But beggars can't be choosers on a two way range, and sometimes a DM is definitely the better way to go.

Greg
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

If you are a "sniper," I doubt you will have a choice...it will be selected for you...at least the military snipers. For the rest of us, I think the main advantage is for competitions where bigger magazines and fast changes come in handy. On the other hand, there is nothing more reliable than a blind box/ADL style rifle. But reliability is not as cool as a DBM. :)
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

It my be handy if you want different bullets for different situations. I don't know I just target shoot. SPM
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

It's hugely important today, and not hard to see where the changes are going, 1st is magazine capacity, second is semi-auto in nature, although not necessarily as important, but movement in that direction is increasing.

For a Law Enforcement officer is it only important if they cross over to tactical competition, because odds of needing more than 5 rounds are slim to none, although you can never say never. (I should edit to say, I have seen the change employed to have different loads in different magazines like stated above, so there it works well)

But for the military, we are way behind on capacity compared to the rest of the world and are just starting to catch up.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Seems like the role of a Scout/Sniper is changing along w/ his or hers
grin.gif
equipment; at least for now!
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Armstech Xtender FTW!!! works Excellent for me! completely reliable, although i cannot change mags i dont gain an extra 4 rounds without spending $200+
 
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Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

for a real sniper i think it would depend on the mission. if they were sneaking across enemy lines to eliminate a enemy officer, they probably wouldnt need a detachable mag. if they were in some sort of overwatch or designated markesmen then i think it would help. for a weekend paper sniper like myself that never shot past 400yds, i think it makes my rifle look cool.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Besides all of the other advantages that have been mentioned so far, in my experience many of the detachable magazines that are in use (AICS for example) just seem to feed more reliably than the factory Remington 700 staggered magazine will.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azerious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armstech Xtender FTW!!! works Excellent for me! completely reliable, although i cannot change mags i dont gain an extra 4 rounds without spending $200+ </div></div>

I have been wondering if there was something out there like this. Couple of questions if anyone knows:

- Does it still pivot?
- What is the appropriate mag spring to use now and where to get?
- Does anyone make a better one that isn't composite?
- You say it adds 4rd., Midway says +3 for long action and +5 for short action. They then say +3 for .308 and +5 for .223. I can see the .223 fitting a lot more, but isn't the .308 SA as well? ...so which is it? +3, 4, or 5?
- Pics?

Thanks.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I don't have DBMs, but I'm not a sniper either.

I can definitely see where a DBM allows the shooter to spend more time focused on engaging targets, and less time on loading the rifle.

There was an account of a Marine sniper in A-Stan a few months back. his unit was ambushed by a numerically superior force. He engaged and killed something like 30 or so enemy in rapid succesion. I don't know if his rifle was DBM equipped or not, but it would have been a distinct advantage. </div></div>

he was adesignated marksman shooting the Mk12 he wasnt shooting a 7.62 bolt gun.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Back in the days when i wore green kit and played with black weapons a lot for a RADE we did some testing.
The British Army have had a detach mag sniper rifle since the 1st sniper employment of the Lee Enfield during WW1. Sure, the SMLE (affectionately known as the smelly)box mag was not generaly used as a detach mag, but was charged by bieng stuffed full from top whilst still attached to the rifle.
We set about putting 2 bolt action sniper rifles against 2 semi (ok one could be fired full, but that was irrelevant) assault type rifles,
we put an L42A1 and an L96A1 head to head against the LSW version of the SA80, the L86A1 and a modified SLR L1A1 ( Brit FAL) a some what interesting test ensued, and of course we took bets on the outcome.

We chose the LSW L86A1 version because it had a slightly heavier barrel and a bipod and was better suited to the task of bieng set againnst true sniper type rifles. Infact, for all its short comings and the SA80 system had many, it was however a very accurate system, we found we could make 800m 1st round hits with the weapon near as damn each and every time(depnding on the severity of Ballistic Thrombisis,, namely the ability of clot behind the trigger), with theisued 4x SUSAT, we werent convinced of the effectivceness of the round at that distance,but we could punch holes in fig 11 targets at that distance with regularity.
We modified the L1A1 SLR, by altering a topcover by screwing an adapted STANAG rail on top, this proved to be unsatisfactory bas it moved to much for accurate shooting, so we made up a bit of a abortion of a mount out of parts form the scrap bin and some angle iron coupled with the weaver rail of mz Webley Tracker airgun, we also mounted the 6x42 Nikko Sterling scope from the airgun on top of the rifle, the mount was ugly, but it worked.

The other 2 sniper rifles where left standard.

up to 300m the smei autos had a distinct advantage, bieng a good 30% faster accurate rounds on target than either of the bolt guns. we loaded the semis with the same amount of rounds as the bolt guns to keep it even, we where interested in the mag capacity of the sniper rifles going from ful to empty in the fastest possible time but with the maximum accurate fire.
Beyond 500m the margin was down to about 25%.
out at 800m it was still about 25%. but with the L1A1 with 6x scope bieng out front, the L96A1 with 6x scope and the LSW with 4 x scope bieng more evenly matched, the L42A1 trailing somewhat behind.

We then upped the anti and stretched the test to maximum mag capacity of 3 mags / 90rds for the LSW, which was 4 1/2 mags for the SLR, 9 mags for the L96 and a good old bandolier for the L42.
Certainly the reloeading dropped the L42 way way back, we found however that the L96 could hold its own pretty well, averaging around 25% slower than the 2 semi autos for that amount of rounds on target, we werent blatting away, this was steady deliberate fire as quick as target aquisition (yes same fit 11 and not multiple targets) sight picture, good trigger control and breathing(marksmanship principles) would allow.

We then however threw a bunch of general issue magazines in the recipie and the LSW went to rat shit due to stoppages, also the SLR lost ground to the occasional mag induced stoppage, this droped the advantage of the semi autos against the L96 to around 15% faster.

The L42 was around 30% slower than the L96, mostly due to the recharge method, but also the extra 2 1/2 X magnification of the 6x S&B scope on the L96 helped.

Basicaly the outcome of the test was as expected. the semi autos where faster, but the bolt guns where more accurate, whilst we managed to hit the fig 11 with all the rounds (well most of us did) the size or groups of rounds on target for the bolt guns was much smaller than that of the L1A1 SLR, and not all rounds would have been incapacitating from the semis. which we decuced to mean that the bolt guns would be more usefull as the ranges got longer, relegating the semi autos for more of a designated marksman or defensive sniping role, preferably out to a max of 5-600m. A more accurate semi auto, (the L86A1 was accurate enough, we also did a separate test using mz 6x42, but the caliber-issued round was considered very marginal at longer distance) in a decently usable caliber would have had a good advantage, but this was the late 80s and ultra accurate, semi auto rifles where thin on the ground.
Our test was conducted firstly by members of the Regimental Armourer team and members of the Regimental shooting team, we then also broadened the test to include retired ex military staff of the RADE plus newer younger soldiers of the Battalion.

Very Very apparent was that the skill of the rifleman in particular played a huge factor in the speed of accurate deliberate fire.
We found that an experienced seasoned bolt action rifleman (either one of the Regt Armourers or Snipers on the team) was as fast or faster with a bolt rifle than one of the younger less experienced members of the Bn.

Summary:

Our test was a bit unfair and miss matched, but it showed a direction that would have only been the same if all the weapons used had had the same scopes fitted and had bene used by one and the same guy.

A Drop Box Magazine fed bolt action sniper rifle is a good bit faster to operate and put deadly fire accurately on target than a single round at a time top stuffing floorplate rifle, or rifle with a box mag that isnt removed.

Probably wouldnt make a difference for an LE rifle. might mean the difference between life and death for a Military rifle.

Definate is that if a drop box magazine is used, the magazines need to be of good quality, robust and reliable. otherwise they are a waste of space. The mag system also needs to be reliable.the catch shouldn't be prone to getting cought and dropping the mag. There are currently some good mag systems on the market-in employment, most popular is probably the AW & AICS type, but there are other good, if somewhat less available systems.

A Drop box gives you the possibility to precharge magazines, for faster reloads and or with differet types of ammo. It also means a charged mag is at hand and a sniper need not shif possition, making himself loose track of whats going on, or making himself vulnerable to stuff single rounds, which invarably fly all over the place if you lay them out ready to grab.

Given a choice on a bolt rifle, i~d take one with a DBM.

with regards to rapid rounds on multiple targets, long range sniper employment and the grey areas in between.
I~d say a Military unit should have access to highly accurate, highly reliable magazine fed bolt action and semi auto type rifles and it should be possible to pic the right tool for the right job and there are jobs for both.

Whichever type of arm a rifleman is issued with, it is highly imperative that he be given enough instruction in the use of, oppertunity to practice with and time and ammo untill it becomes second nature. This, for the most part is sadly not the case.


Pete
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

One thing to keep in mind when going with a DBM.
It will weaken the stock because you are taking out material from the stock to fit the magazine. Some top rifle makers (Mike @ Tac Ops is one) does not recommend using one if utmost precision is what you are after.
Being that Mike guarantees .25MOA guarantee on his rifles I would take his word on this matter.
I personally love my DBM in my Remington 700. I find that working up different loads is easier (longer OAL and ability to switch between loads with the push of lever).
As my rifle sits now im putting .25MOA or better at 100meters with the V-Bull DBM.
the only complaint I would have is that with a DBM you could risk loosing your mag which makes shooting much more tedious.

Tim
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Carry more than one mag and not much more stock taken out than with a standard BDL type bottom metal.
Don't see anyone going back to a ADL style rifle.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

tim, going to have to respectfully disagree with you and Mike. As been said, a DBM uses essentially the same footprint, most are only different by about 1/8'.

As well there are systems, like the AICS that don't affect the accuracy at all, and are in fact quite accurate. So the idea that a DBM is less accurate, I believe to be false as I have seen no evidence to support that, and to my knowledge, no one has either.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Turk,
Talking about saying that the stock is weakened by the cutout. Not going back to ADL because of that.
One shot, sure I could take BDL (this said with a M40A1 coming), but mags sure are nice.
Chad
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Chad, you are absolutely right! I don't see it being an accuracy issue. For the average shooter who is not military or does not compete in matches; I don't really see big gains w/ the DBM. On my AICS the mag dumped out on 3 seperate occasions while shooting over a bag witnessed by members on here! I am sure the DBM has it's uses for different scenarios, but for the average shooter it's a hindrance in my opinion. If you are high speed low drag go for it!
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

If I recall the article about the marine ambush it was the USMC equivalent of an SDM armed with their AR based precision rifle.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Opening a ADL stock to a BDL stock weakens it some what, sure, but not to a point as that it will cause problems. now wether you will see any difference in accuracy is questionable,
But opening a BDL to DBM shouldn't make a whole lot of difference, sure the Badger type systems are a fair bit more milled out than a standard floor plate,but onlz in the part where the action screws go through and not all that much wider in the mag well portion. but rifles built with such DBM systems are just as accurate as if they where ADL providing the guy building them knows what he is doing.
You might see a difference between a solid stock and single shot action and a milled out stock and repeater action (would be easy enough to test,by swapping same barrel from one rifle to another)

Personaly I like to permanently affix the DBM in the stock with Devcon, but this should only be done after the rifle has been thoroughly checked for feed height and proved to work with the mag system, slight differences in the height of the positioning can make the difference between 100% reliability and the occasional missfeed. h a glued in mag system becomes part of the stock, this is supportive of the stock in the area of the inlet for the mag system and must strengthen the stock, one could argue which is stronger, a glued in mag system or a ADL stock. I wouldnt want and ADL sniper rifle these days.
With regards to reliability, Also check the mag lips on replacement magazines, some are tighter together than others and this alters the height of the round in the magazine and ultimately the angle of the feed.
Preventing mag loss by accidental actuation of the mag release has always been a problem,( we tied and taped paracord to SA80 mags and to the weapon to prevent this on the earliest SA80 versions, (not realy a good solution in a major firefight, but that was unlikely on the streets of Belfast in the late 80s and early 90s, the risk of bieng in the shit due to a full mag lost on the street some where was considered greater) there was then a modification to the rifle glueing a shroud around the mag release catch, that was only a bodge it and leg it mod, as the damn glue tended to deteriorate if you got and solvent or mossy reppelant near it, later they where spot welded in place)
The mag release needs to be accessable and easy to use in a hurry but not so protruding that it is prone to accidental acctuation.

Pete
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Given the choice, I would want a DBM.

If it could be demonstrated that accuracy or durability were to be compromised by the DBM inlet, then I'd think it would be logical to suggest that the stock is simply showing a need for some reinforcement.

I don't know how many have actually managed to snap a stock in half through the mag well, and how many are engaging in conjecture.

I did it.

I was endeavoring to undo the gas cylinder plug of a (my) brand new 'loaded' M1A, and it musta been torqued by Gorilla Monsoon, because the stock literally snapped in half before the plug ever budged. I was forced to place the gas cylinder in a vise and use a 1/2" drive socket wrench to undo it.

SA was very good about the incident, and was kind enough to supply a gas cylinder wrench along with the new stock, which would have been the poper tool to use in conjunction with the combi tool that was being applied to the plug. I was new to this tsuff, and even though I had spent two years with issue M14's I had never encountered a plug that was THAT stuck before.

Were I to consider reinforcing a mag well, it might involve bonding/laminating 'cheek' slabs to the outside of the mag well area, extending somewhat fore and aft beyond the longitudinal limits of the mag well.

Maybe not the most eyeworthy, but IMHO, pretty is as pretty does.

Greg
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

For me, the difference is this:

From the bench, range, load experimention, a DM is really of no advantage.

From the field, hunting, bad guys, competition, its a must.

I have a Badger M5 on a remmy 700 sps, and feel it was good money spent.

the ONLY drawback imo is the $cost of the initial investment $350.00 or so, the install price $80.00 to $100.00, or not if you have the right tools, and the spare mags, which run from $70.00 and up.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Greg the Badger DBM has some heft in it you can't see unless it's out of the stock. I would like to find someone who actualy broke one in half.
P1010124.jpg

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P1010123.jpg

Triggerguard thickness
P1010126.jpg

P1010127.jpg

P1010119-2.jpg
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koolnhard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For me, the difference is this:

From the bench, range, load experimention, a DM is really of no advantage.

From the field, hunting, bad guys, competition, its a must.

I have a Badger M5 on a remmy 700 sps, and feel it was good money spent.

the ONLY drawback imo is the $cost of the initial investment $350.00 or so, the install price $80.00 to $100.00, or not if you have the right tools, and the spare mags, which run from $70.00 and up.
</div></div>
In the field and hunting it's a must? Are you serious? In competition only because all of the comps are geared toward DBM's! How about a comp geared toward FP's?
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Turk, when I get let loose on the Scottish hills after red hinds, I carry 1 ten round mag and 1 five round mag. IF I am lucky enough to get into a big herd of hinds, the 10 round mag goes in, the 5 roung is ready, and another dozen or so rounds are "handy". I've not ran out of bullets yet, but I have had to change mags, lying down spotting for the next hind, never haveing taken my cheek from the stock........much easyer/discreet to drop an empty and stick in a full mag than it is to start single feed/top loading!??!

Now i'm only culling deer that dont shoot back, if I can reload with as little movement as possible i'll shoot more deer. If I were culling angry men, the last thing i'd want would be to HAVE to single feed every round after i'd emptyed the belly of an ADL.........
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

As other have said it depends on your needs. I threw a short competition course in to today's training. 10 rounds into a MOA target at 300 yards in 60 seconds. We had a few guys from another agency with us and the only other person who got off all 10 rounds was one of their guys who was running an AR10. No one else had a chance. Of course they said I was disqualified due to an unfair advantage, lol...

SCAN0019.jpg
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Intresting vid on youtube.
Was hoping to catch a glimpse of JR on the one at the Knights factory with the review on the M110.

watching those vids it becomes very apparent that the operator is a big factor in the speed of engagement of a bolt action sniper rifle.
On the Rapid Bolt Fun vid, the ist guy in the foreground is way slicker in his operation of the bolt than his mate in position 2 or 3. Also apparent was the fumbling for spare rounds and a miss feed. Pre charged DBM's would have avoided this.

The comparison between the M110 and the M24 was interesting.

M24 5 rds in 10 sec
M110 5rds in 5 sec

thats 50% faster. however the M110 had a suppressor, this aids greatly in keeping your sight picture on or near the target during recoil. also a semi auto does recoil a bit less than a bolt gun. The ex SF guy doing the testing wasn't all that slick with the bolt either.

I would bet a case of beer that 1st the guy in the rapid bolt fun vid could narrow the difference for 5rds to 30%.

Anyhow. I would want a mag on a bolt action sniper rifle. I do however see the Military going more towards Semi Auto Sniper Rifles. I can see a Semi Auto completely replacing the Bolt Rifle for all sniper usage in Caliber .308win. I think that the .300Winmag and .338Lapmag sniper rifles will remain bolt guns (with magazines) bigger than that its a toss up. I dont see the advantage of a semi auto .408 or .50BMG, these are specialised role rifles and hardly likely to be used very rapidly in a very target rich environment.

There also must (is) be an advantage in having the same ergonomics between the standard battle rifle and the sniper version. must make training easier and muscle memory-second nature usage is ensured,.

i had a chance to look briefly at a H&K417 the other day and was impressed with what I saw.


Pete
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I don't have DBMs, but I'm not a sniper either.

I can definitely see where a DBM allows the shooter to spend more time focused on engaging targets, and less time on loading the rifle.

There was an account of a Marine sniper in A-Stan a few months back. his unit was ambushed by a numerically superior force. He engaged and killed something like 30 or so enemy in rapid succesion. I don't know if his rifle was DBM equipped or not, but it would have been a distinct advantage. </div></div>

he was adesignated marksman shooting the Mk12 he wasnt shooting a 7.62 bolt gun.</div></div>
He was actually using this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

I have run a fixed magazine bolt gun for quite some time. I have been fairly adept at single loading at full speed when the mag runs dry. For most situations I don't feel that it would be a limiting factor. However in combat every advantage counts. The only concern I would have is the mag getting dumped on movement. The "flipper" on the badger looks huge. I realize that it's somewhat protected with the 10 round mag in place, but I would have to stalk a couple times with one before I would feel completely at ease and even then I would probably habitually check the mag every time I paused to rest.

As far as rapid target engagement goes. If that is what the mission required I think I would select a SASS.

As far as the Marine in question in A-stan. Dedication and a winning mindset matters more than the rifle. I would bet that if he had a standard A4 with an ACOG he would have still been dropping them left and right.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Certain things seem to go together: Breyers vanilla ice cream and Hersey's chocolate. Detachable magazines and semi-automatic firearms like AR-15 & AR-10. A bolt action is already a slow shooting gun with or without a magazine. Get a magazine if you want, but its not compelling on a slow shooting bolt action IMHO. Now an AR and a magazine? That's like peanut butter & jelly
smile.gif
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

Still like the fact that I can load more than one mag and get through one and get on to the next. Other than that, shoot two different rounds, may be smart not sure. I did it, but not a shooter.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long range fire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There appears quite a few changing out the bottom metal and hinged mag plate to detachable magazine. I'm wondering if the DM is an important feature in sniper rifle? </div></div>

The original question was whether a detachable magazine is an important feature on a sniper rifle.
Since the shooter is asking this question, he's not a sniper. Also, he's not asking "...given a choice....". So he he didn't ask what our choice would be. Naturally, if given a choice one will choose DBM, in most cases. Since he's asking, he's probably just getting started. Likely, whether he gets one or the other probably will not matter.
I agree that it's a matter of preference. I grew up shooting Metallic Silhouette with a 700 Varmint 308 BDL loading it one round at a time into the chamber but that was always in a standing position and muzzle down so it was easy. Consequently, I am accomplished at this method. Loading with muzzle down is not always possible otherwise.

If you ever want to play sport tactical, go DBM without argument. Most others use them so you can't be competitive without DBM. But if you will be shooting alone or with a buddy on the range for fun and aren't obsessing about this like we all here do, never mind a DBM unless the gun comes configured like that.
 
Re: Is "detachable magazine" important in sniper rifle

I have no arguments about whether anyone had or could snap a stock with a badger DBM. I would expect them to add durability to a stock, if anything.

I was speaking of the M14/M1A, which I believe had several design flaws, and the magazine inlet was one of them. Among other things, battle rifles were often used as a step for infantry to get boosted up to the top of walls, or into windows, etc., which I suspect would not be the kind of service to which a tactical rifle would be subjected anyway.

Greg