Is it worth it to upgrade to a ZCO or TT

[Bigrederic]

So I am the middle of having another LH gun built and I am considering selling or trading off one of my PMIIs with H59s for a TT or ZCO. I don't have any gripes with the PMIIs, other then they need to be modded for LH use. So that has me thinking of parting ways with one of them and possibly acquiring another scope to replace it.

From people that have had both or all 3 do you think are the pluses and minuses of swapping to another optic?? From my time looking through them all they have all always been super close optics to my eyes. Only looked through a TT once and through a few ZCOs on multiple occasions.

 

[cjs88]

S&B has newer PMII's coming out with the illumination built in to the parallax instead of the "tumor" that lefties hate. Not sure when they hit shelves though. I recently upgraded all my scopes (z8i and pmii 3-27HP) to TT and ZCO and have zero regrets. Well, technically, I didn't upgrade to a ZCO I just bought one for another rifle.

 

[Chickentoast]

I don't think there will be any material practical difference, but you may enjoy it more, which might be worth it to you.

 

[Bravo6niner]

I have ZCO’s and a TT. Had a few s&B’s in the past and honestly for me the main reason I traded the S&B’s was to get into reticles I preferred more than the T3 and h2cmr. If S&B came out with a reticle similar to a Gen3xr, skmr3 or a mpct2,3 I would have no problem owning one again.
I will say if your looking at buying a new S&B now I think it’s hard to not just go the ZCO route when comparing new prices of each and resale. Unless the S&B has a feature you gotta have because of personal preference ZCO is a better value for what you get I think. Kinda like Kahles, I think they are a great scope if you pick one up in the $2400-$2500 range.

 

[Glassaholic]

OP, question you need to ask yourself is what limitations do your current scopes have? Is it weight, size, reticle? If you are happy with all those things then what do you stand to gain from the ZCO or TT. I will say this, it sounds like you may have older Schmidt scopes with the older turrets, if that matters to you (turret feel and tactile feedback) then I'd say ZCO will be a step up and TT definitely a step up. That being said, I feel the new Schmidt DT II+ turrets are better than ZCO and I like the locking mechanism better as well as you can leave it on or off and the MTC is the best I've felt from Schmidt. TT has the best toolless zero/stop in the business, not sure if that matters but worth mentioning.

If you're looking for an upgrade to image quality, yes ZCO is better than Schmidt and yes TT is better than ZCO but we are talking fractions at this stage of the game and really it comes down to other factors like reticle, ergonomics and mechanics. All three scopes are going to be very forgiving in DOF, parallax and eyebox. If you own the PM II 5-25 then another factor is tunneling at low magnification, for this reason many consider the 5-25 to really be more like a 7-25 and FOV numbers reflect that. If FOV is going to be important to you, especially at the low end of magnification, the TT will be king and the ZCO will follow.

If you prefer a "lighter" scope then I think you can't beat the TT315M and to be honest I think the turrets are even "better" than on their 5-25, most likely due to the spacing at 6mrad per revolution. Another scope in the lighter weight category is the March 4.5-28x52, March really flies below the radar and has struggled some with their 8x erector designs, but the 4.5-28 (with 6.2x erector) solves a lot of those issues and is impressive optically and mechanically. If weight isn't so much a concern but "shorter" is, there is no better ultra short out there (optically) than the ZCO 4-20.

For me, at this stage it comes down to reticle, this is the thing you have to look at every time you look through the scope and I am very particular about reticle.

If you haven't seen ILya's video on high end tactical 56mm scopes you may want to check it out:

 

[viking78]

Not saying by any mean, that S&B PMII 5-25 is a bad scope no, but ZCO is just so much better.
I have seen few S&B and i dont like the tunneling.
They use same glass, Schott on ZCO and S&B.
But the technology has gone far ahead of that PMII.
I have few ZCO, and i have no complaining of them.
Tyler at MKmachining has seen all the top level scopes, and hi has writed that TT has a bit picky eye box, and that aint cool for scope on that price point.
Here is a large scope test done in last year in Schwitzerland, and ZCO won that test, second was S&B PMII 5-40.
What surprised me, was that the old K624i was better than the new K525i.
I have had 2 of those K624i and they were top notch scopes.

Der grosse Zielfernrohr-Test 2021

Also worth to look.

 

[Glassaholic]

They use same glass, Schott on ZCO and S&B.

Has ZCO confirmed this? I don't think I've ever heard ZCO mention they use Schott glass, I think being from Austria it's likely they use Schott but that is an assumption.

Tyler at MKmachining has seen all the top level scopes, and hi has writed that TT has a bit picky eye box, and that aint cool for scope on that price point.

Has he? Then I would agree to disagree, the eyebox on the TT is simply stunning and I've had my fair share of top glass as well.

 

[VargmatII]

While it is hard to follow up and add on anything Glassaholic just wrote, I will still pass on a few lines.

I am relatively new to long range shooting (since 2015) and have owned and looked through various scopes along the years. Vortex, Hensoldt, Nightforce, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender and Delta probably checks of my personal scope list. When ZCO was announced I had my eyes peeled, like a lot of other snipershide members. Fast forward to a big competition last year, where a guy in our squad had a ZCO and I had some time to look through it and feel the dials. And while I do feel that it is a nice scope, to me its not nice enough to sell either my 5-25x56 PM2 or my Kahles 624 to make the switch. I would say that we are well into the realm of diminishing returns here, and I figured it was just not worth it. As always YMMV.

Granted, if one does not have any scopes at all today, I would say that a ZCO is a better buy than a S&B since they are about the same retail. But to change out a perfectly good S&B for a ZCO, does not seem to be worth it, at least to me.

 

[viking78]

Has ZCO confirmed this? I don't think I've ever heard ZCO mention they use Schott glass, I think being from Austria it's likely they use Schott but that is an assumption.

Has he? Then I would agree to disagree, the eyebox on the TT is simply stunning and I've had my fair share of top glass as well.

I have seen it many place, just google it and here´s few.

Zero Compromise Optic 4-20x50 and 5-27x56 - Optics Trade Blog

Introduction of Zero Compromise Optic Zero Compromise Optic had a booth at Shot Show for the second time already, and they introduced 2 very impressive rifle scopes last year (2018). Until now, these rifle scopes have not been available, but this year they announced that the production has...

optics-info.com

[SHOT 2019] Zero Compromise Optic -

Zero Compromise Optic as a company is brand new to optics world, their owner and employees, however, are not. With lineage from both Nightforce and Kahles, the minds behind Zcomp have a lot of real-world experience. When I released one of their first product videos last year it had over...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Nik H]

I have/had a couple of PMIIs (5-25 and 3-27). I still have the 5-25 but sold the 3-27 as I hated the reticle...scope was great.

I will say that I enjoy my ZCO 5-27 and NF ATACR 7-35 better than my S&B but mostly based on turret function and reticle offerings. The DT turret on the S&B is dated. Legibility, feel and locking (ZCO) are just hands down better than the DT and LT/MTC turrets that S&B offers. I also had slightly better tracking on a HORUS target with both the ZCO and NF which is my number one criterion for any riflescope.

I have used my buddies TT on a number of occasions...very nice scope. Probably the best turrets out there but splitting hairs with the ZCO in all honesty. ZCO has a better reticle IMHO. Tool-less zero means jack to me. I can adjust zero on my ZCO or S&B w/o missing a beat. I do so regularly as I have an AI and switch calibers at the range. ZCO turret locks are the best in the business.

Issue that you have to determine for yourself is the value proposition. I don't think the TT is worth what they want. It is over $2,000 more than a 5-25 PMII and about $1,000 more than a ZCO

I'll take ZCO all day long.

YMMV

 

[Brym427]

When in doubt, there is always the trusty NF

 

[viking78]

And, you need a new mount/rings if you go with ZCO, 36mm scope tube diameter.
But it will hurt only once, me 3 times

 

[Nik H]

When in doubt, there is always the trusty NF

Haters will hate but I love my NF ATACR scopes (7-35, 5-25 and 1-8). They consistently work in all weather.

 

[Glassaholic]

I have seen it many place, just google it and here´s few.

Zero Compromise Optic 4-20x50 and 5-27x56 - Optics Trade Blog

Introduction of Zero Compromise Optic Zero Compromise Optic had a booth at Shot Show for the second time already, and they introduced 2 very impressive rifle scopes last year (2018). Until now, these rifle scopes have not been available, but this year they announced that the production has...

optics-info.com

[SHOT 2019] Zero Compromise Optic -

Zero Compromise Optic as a company is brand new to optics world, their owner and employees, however, are not. With lineage from both Nightforce and Kahles, the minds behind Zcomp have a lot of real-world experience. When I released one of their first product videos last year it had over...

www.thefirearmblog.com

Thanks, I had not seen anything official, assumed as much but good to know

 

[Bigrederic]

Wow thanks for all the feedback. Out of the 5 PM2s I have they are all the 5x25s and the older DT models with the exception of my one MTC turret scope. They are all H59 reticle. I also own a few ATACRs (7x35 and a few 4x16). That being said I really like the the ATACR's turrets.

I also have never been bothered by the PM2s tunneling between 5-7 power. I don't shoot down that low very often. Usually all my scopes sit somewhere around 10-12 power at any target between 300-1300 yards.

I guess it's sound strange but I just wonder if the ability of old cow syndrome. Not really needing to change scope but just the curiosity if I am really missing out on something by still running my old faithful.

 

[TheHorta]

Have you looked into Barska?

 

[Huskydriver]

It comes down to reticles and turrets for me. I have several SB Us using msr2 reticles which is my current jam and zco 527 with mpct2. Used a few TT 525...to me the TT isn't worth the premium over zco unless it's used and your getting it close to around 4k.

Pick your reticle then go from there. If you are happy with the h59 I see no reason to change honestly.

If zco @gebhardt02 ever decides to not be gay and drink just the Horus coolaid and bring in some finnacuracy reticles I might be selling off some SBs for some 420 Zco's with msr2s.

As it currently stands only reason I would buy another SB is you need a short scope or you only want one of the reticles they offer. Also the new dtii+ or mt+ turrets are some of my fav made

 

[Huskydriver]

Have you looked into Barska?

Heard you can torque those to 100inlbs in arc mounts

 

[TheHorta]

Why be limited to a scope that has just ONE reticle, like that SB/TT/NF/ZCO garbage?

 

[Glassaholic]

I guess it's sound strange but I just wonder if the ability of old cow syndrome. Not really needing to change scope but just the curiosity if I am really missing out on something by still running my old faithful.

A few colloquialism’s for you;
“If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”
“Curiosity killed the cat”

Seriously, getting into the “I wonder what I’m missing” syndrome will end up costing a lot of money for little return.

 

[TheHorta]

Seriously, getting into the “I wonder what I’m missing” syndrome will end up costing a lot of money for little return.

That’s poor-people talk.

 

[CSTactical]

So I am the middle of having another LH gun built and I am considering selling or trading off one of my PMIIs with H59s for a TT or ZCO. I don't have any gripes with the PMIIs, other then they need to be modded for LH use. So that has me thinking of parting ways with one of them and possibly acquiring another scope to replace it.

From people that have had both or all 3 do you think are the pluses and minuses of swapping to another optic?? From my time looking through them all they have all always been super close optics to my eyes. Only looked through a TT once and through a few ZCOs on multiple occasions.

Feel free to call me at 916-670-1103x2 and I can guide you on your scope quest as we carry both

 

[CSTactical]

Thanks, I had not seen anything official, assumed as much but good to know

It was on their official website for years before the recent changes

 

[Nik H]

That’s poor-people talk.

What are poor people???

 

[CSTactical]

What are poor people???

That's me

 

[Nik H]

That's me

I'm sure your discounts solves that problem

 

[Long Range 338]

Sounds like 1st world problems... Honestly all 3 are top notch. I agree with Glassaholic on this one. Lately I find myself choosing scopes based on reticle and turrets more than glass as the glass aspect is very subjective and all are VERY good.

-The Schmidt is a favorite with the new DT2+ turrets but I'm not a lefty shooter so the tumor is no issue. The only downside currently to the SB is the tunneling on low end. Glass is great, turrets are great - I prefer MTC, and reticles offerings are extensive - including the favorite MSR2

-TT is my top performer in all aspects but the price penalty is there. I'm running the old Gen2XR and have never felt limited. Best glass, best turrets - even without the MTC, and useable reticles, but limited choices.

-ZCO comes in 3rd for me but not due to lack of performance on any metric, just personal preference. Not a big fan of the reticle offerings, they work but reticle preference comes in just as important as turrets IMO. Great glass, great turrets - I don't prefer the locking style turrets, limited reticle offerings.

OP, question you need to ask yourself is what limitations do your current scopes have? Is it weight, size, reticle? If you are happy with all those things then what do you stand to gain from the ZCO or TT. I will say this, it sounds like you may have older Schmidt scopes with the older turrets, if that matters to you (turret feel and tactile feedback) then I'd say ZCO will be a step up and TT definitely a step up. That being said, I feel the new Schmidt DT II+ turrets are better than ZCO and I like the locking mechanism better as well as you can leave it on or off and the MTC is the best I've felt from Schmidt. TT has the best toolless zero/stop in the business, not sure if that matters but worth mentioning.

If you're looking for an upgrade to image quality, yes ZCO is better than Schmidt and yes TT is better than ZCO but we are talking fractions at this stage of the game and really it comes down to other factors like reticle, ergonomics and mechanics. All three scopes are going to be very forgiving in DOF, parallax and eyebox. If you own the PM II 5-25 then another factor is tunneling at low magnification, for this reason many consider the 5-25 to really be more like a 7-25 and FOV numbers reflect that. If FOV is going to be important to you, especially at the low end of magnification, the TT will be king and the ZCO will follow.

If you prefer a "lighter" scope then I think you can't beat the TT315M and to be honest I think the turrets are even "better" than on their 5-25, most likely due to the spacing at 6mrad per revolution. Another scope in the lighter weight category is the March 4.5-28x52, March really flies below the radar and has struggled some with their 8x erector designs, but the 4.5-28 (with 6.2x erector) solves a lot of those issues and is impressive optically and mechanically. If weight isn't so much a concern but "shorter" is, there is no better ultra short out there (optically) than the ZCO 4-20.

For me, at this stage it comes down to reticle, this is the thing you have to look at every time you look through the scope and I am very particular about reticle.

If you haven't seen ILya's video on high end tactical 56mm scopes you may want to check it out:

 

[CSTactical]

I'm sure your discounts solves that problem

If I did the same thing outside California I'd be doing ok lol

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

I can't notice a significant difference between my Hensoldt, S&B, TT, Swavorski, or Steiner; and I have multiple of each.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I can say this shooting both a PM5-25 and a ZCO527 side by side into terrain. The ZCO looks significantly brighter and easier to resolve.

Its why I bought a TT and not a S&B for $1000 less for my backup gun. I owned one years ago when it was the Alpha but did not realize until recently how good the newer Alpha optics are. For PRS and games it doesn't matter but take it out into the mountains where you need to find targets/game, you will definitely see the difference. IMO ZCO and TT both have significantly better reticles and turrets than S&B.

 

[CSTactical]

I can't notice a significant difference between my Hensoldt, S&B, TT, Swavorski, or Steiner; and I have multiple of each.

Wow really? That's not our experience here or with our customers over that broad range of scopes.

 

[Long Range 338]

IMO ZCO and TT both have significantly better reticles and turrets than S&B.

In a general sense that is true, the S&B DT2+ turrets are much much better than the older DT turrets. So much so that I wouldn't own an S&B without the DT2+.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

@CSTactical it's all about personal preference and how your eye and brain interpret the light, a scope can look very different between a dozen different people as well as different cameras. This is why everyone should look before they buy. I regularly do blind scope tests with clients and the results are always surprising and interesting. Also, there is a difference, but it's not like comparing a Hesnoldt to a entry level scope. I value warranty as much as I value personal preference on glass and features with how tough I am on my gear.

 

[Long Range 338]

I can't notice a significant difference between my Hensoldt, S&B, TT, Swavorski, or Steiner; and I have multiple of each.

I tend to agree with CS on this. The Hensoldt is better (but not to the point I would buy another). The TT is a smidge better than others and Steiner falls below the others optically - Speaking only of glass quality.

 

[CSTactical]

@CSTactical it's all about personal preference and how your eye and brain interpret the light, a scope can look very different between a dozen different people as well as different cameras. This is why everyone should look before they buy. I regularly do blind scope tests with clients and the results are always surprising and interesting. Also, there is a difference, but it's not like comparing a Hesnoldt to a entry level scope. I value warranty as much as I value personal preference on glass and features with how tough I am on my gear.

Oh I agree with most of what you said. Part of the problem IMO is that many people do not set the scope correctly to themselves if they are allowed that ability which can make mediocre optics better than they are and great optics worse when compared side by side.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Well that's where you come in @CSTactical a professional and knowledgeable company to guide people also @Long Range 338 that has not been my experience with Steiner, I actually own a Hensoldt because the customer preferred the Steiner glass and features over it and traded me.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Oh I agree with most of what you said. Part of the problem IMO is that many people do not set the scope correctly to themselves if they are allowed that ability which can make mediocre optics better than they are and great optics worse.

Diopters are overrated, who needs to focus?

 

[Glassaholic]

Oh I agree with most of what you said. Part of the problem IMO is that many people do not set the scope correctly to themselves if they are allowed that ability which can make mediocre optics better than they are and great optics worse.

Where is the BIG HUGE THUMBS UP "Like" I could not agree more! Years ago I made that embarrassing mistake and Mike had to politely correct me after I sent a scope back, since then I pay MUCH more attention to setting the diopter correctly.

 

[Glassaholic]

If I did the same thing outside California I'd be doing ok lol

I highly recommend getting out of Kalifornia before it's too late

 

[boomslang]

Where is the BIG HUGE THUMBS UP "Like" I could not agree more! Years ago I made that embarrassing mistake and Mike had to politely correct me after I sent a scope back, since then I pay MUCH more attention to setting the diopter correctly.

Rifle Scopes - Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters

bohemr13 X96 MONTHS Premium Member First Sergeant Rating: 3.6/5 this site 7824 posts this site Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters 03/02/2015 Last edited 03/03/2015 by bohemr13 (9 votes) I recently had a somewhat disgruntled customer return a scope because he complained of...

www.snipershide.com

Was this thread a result of your doings?

 

[CSTactical]

I highly recommend getting out of Kalifornia before it's too late

To many positives that make a move right now difficult (One being my Wife's pension - Richard) and this is not the owners main source of income.

Ten years or a little les from now is another story - Richard

 

[Glassaholic]

That’s poor-people talk.

I'm poor because of this addiction. For some it's heroine, for me it's scopes (and rifles and ammo and now because of people like you it's NV and thermal) How come I didn't get obsessed with basket weaving

 

[TheOE800]

Where is the BIG HUGE THUMBS UP "Like" I could not agree more! Years ago I made that embarrassing mistake and Mike had to politely correct me after I sent a scope back, since then I pay MUCH more attention to setting the diopter correctly.

Depending on one’s vision it can be fairly hard to dial the diopter correctly. I like how March labels their diopter values numerically and also enjoy that the newest Gen 3 Vortex has a hash scale on the objective denoting every +/- .5 increment of diopter albeit without Arabic numerals.

 

[Glassaholic]

To many positives that make a move right now difficult

"Positives" and California just do not go hand in hand, I was born and raised out there and left in '92 right when the Clintonista's took over.

(One being my Wife's pension - Richard)

And just like a good communist state they figured out how to "keep you there"... just sayin'

and this is not the owners main source of income.

I figured that was probably why we don't hear from Mike much anymore

Ten years or a little les from now is another story - Richard

Hope it lasts that long...

 

[Chickentoast]

Now youse can't leave!

 

[CSTactical]

"Positives" and California just do not go hand in hand, I was born and raised out there and left in '92 right when the Clintonista's took over.

And just like a good communist state they figured out how to "keep you there"... just sayin'

I figured that was probably why we don't hear from Mike much anymore

Hope it lasts that long...

1. Yes it's not much, but the medical I can get for my kids is #1
2. Damn them!
3. Neither do we haha
4. fingers crossed

 

[CSTactical]

Now youse can't leave!

I love that clip!!!

 

[Huskydriver]

Those SB 520 us with dtii+ turrets tho......

 

[Tokay444]

7.

 

[Glassaholic]

Rifle Scopes - Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters

bohemr13 X96 MONTHS Premium Member First Sergeant Rating: 3.6/5 this site 7824 posts this site Setting up a FFP rifle scope - A simple PSA on Diopters 03/02/2015 Last edited 03/03/2015 by bohemr13 (9 votes) I recently had a somewhat disgruntled customer return a scope because he complained of...

www.snipershide.com

Was this thread a result of your doings?

Actually no, that used to be how I setup diopters but my eyes adjust way too fast and I've adopted a method promoted by @hk dave a few years ago along with some gleaning from @koshkin that allows for "fine tuning" of the diopter. ZCO actually gets the closest to getting diopter adjusted properly in their instructions recommending you use the lowest magnification but I agree with ILya that using the lowest magnification while still being able to see the hash marks clearly is better. Here is my latest process:

• Initial setup: Set magnification to highest setting and set side focus to infinity. Loosen the lock ring in front of the eyepiece (if it has a lock ring) and while looking at a blank wall or the sky, rotate the diopter several turns counterclockwise (in the positive + direction) until the reticle is visibly out of focus. One of the most important things is to not stare continuously through the scope. Make sure you have something distant to look at when you look away from the scope. Then glance through the scope for no more than a few seconds. Then stare out at a distant object again while making a small adjustment. Then rotate diopter back clockwise until the reticle is focused as sharply as possible.
• Fine tuning: Find a target that is very far away, so that it looks sharpest when the side focus is at the infinity setting. As you look through the scope (important that it remains steady) you can mess with the diopter by making minute adjustments either CW/CCW and see if the reticle and/or image improves any. You can also check parallax to ensure that small head movements don’t cause the POA to shift. When the target is in the best focus there should be no parallax movement, if there is parallax movement with slight movement of your position behind the scope then try to fine tune so the reticle stays locked on target with no movement.
• Closeup tuning: Now find a target that is closeup, say 100 yards away, set your side focus until the object comes into best focus, does the reticle still look sharp? Check parallax to make sure there is no shift. Make minute adjustments to diopter if necessary. Check back at long distance and make sure parallax and focus are still good to go.
• Final reticle adjustment: This should be done when you have nothing else to focus on within the FOV other than the reticle. Set your magnification to the lowest setting where you can still define all the hash marks of your reticle. You can either do it while pointing at a blank light-colored wall (keep the side focus at the infinity setting, so any of the minute features on the wall are blurred out) or at the blue sky. One of the most important things is to not stare continuously through the scope. Make sure you have something distant to look at when you look away from the scope. Then glance through the scope for no more than a few seconds. Then stare out at a distant object again while making small adjustments.

Once you’ve performed the above 4 steps you should be set with your scope, it might be wise to mark your ocular and the scope tube with a pen or marker (especially if you don’t have a locking diopter) so you can return to this position if your scope is ever bumped out of alignment.

I was responsible for this sticky -

Rifle Scopes - Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes

wjm308 XFirst Sergeant Rating: 3.6/5 this site 2349 posts this site Tips For Asking Advice About Rifle Scopes 09/02/2016 Last edited 01/05/2017 by wjm308 (11 votes) Not that this would be a "rule" but more a "guideline" for members when they'd like to ask about what scope is best, I thought...

www.snipershide.com