Is my barrel shot?

[J_D]

Last time I checked, Erik Cortina said you don't need to break in a centerfire barrel.

He must be wrong.

I am waiting on a DP Gunworks CZ with a custom barrel and it looked pretty good after the first 5 shots. Kenny just released that video of my barreled action this past week.

That video must be fake.

Why argue? You already know everything.

Have a great evening......

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Last time I checked, Erik Cortina said you don't need to break in a centerfire barrel.

He must be wrong.

I am waiting on a DP Gunworks CZ with a custom barrel and it looked pretty good after the first 5 shots. Kenny just released that video of my barreled action this past week.

That video must be fake.

Why argue? You already know everything.

Have a great evening......

Yea that's why everyone takes a brand new barrel to a match.

They definitely don't rise in velocity, which is a function of the barrel breaking in.

Somehow the fps magically jumps.

 

[Shayne Ward]

So tell me how much your rimfire barrel sped up when it was properly broke in

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

So tell me how much your rimfire barrel sped up when it was properly broke in

You are laughing but proving the point.

It doesn't. You can't break in a rimfire like a centerfire......for all the reasons explained.

Which is why we season a barrel.

You are a little slow on the uptake but getting there.

 

[Shayne Ward]

Hey douche bag… The top centerfire PRS, NRL and F Class shooters in the world clean to bare metal before and after every match. Why wouldn’t they just leave that special seasoning in their barrels?

 

[Fowlmaster]

Ok I am going to open a can of worms here I am sure. I have done both methods of cleaning and my consensus is that a clean barrel shoots better. At least a match grade barrel while shooting the PRS discipline.
I have a Krieger 25.5" 16T barrel done by MCR on a Vudoo that was lot tested at Eley in Winters, TX. The gun is consistently .25 at 50 and sub MOA to 300 shooting 5 shot groups in North Texas weather conditions.
For the first half of the case of Tenex I only cleaned the chamber with C4 and would use 2-3 dry patches to push any remaining solvent out of the barrel. I always inspected the chamber with a scope to make sure that no Carbon Ring was building. I will say that after about 3 bricks I noticed that at distance the rifle wasnt as consistent as it was in the beginning. I would have noticeably bigger groups at 275-350yds. At around 4 bricks-2000k rounds I decided to completely clean the barrel while at the range testing. Immediately after cleaning the rifle shooting at 50 yards after 3-4 rnds it was back to zero and bughole groups. The groups at distance came back to right at moa consistently. I now clean the barrel after every trip to the range. It doesnt matter if I shoot 20rnds or 200 I clean the same every time. The gun is without a doubt more consistent. If I am going to shoot a match I will simply shoot 10-20 rnds at the sight in target to foul the barrel. It rarely needs more than 3-5 rnds fired before it comes back to zero and grouping. I have also in practice shot the first rounds at a clean 300 yard steel plate. Same results. Clean is the way in my opinion.........

Now I will say this. Having owned 2 Vudoos with factory barrels and shot thousands of rounds that the factory barrels do not come back as quickly after cleaning them. Sometimes taking 20-30 plus rnds to get them back to grouping..... Is this because the finish in the bore or chamber isnt as good?? Yall can argue and laugh at this post if you want but I took the time to give you my experience and I know that probably the majority of top PRS shooters in my area all go by this same cleaning principle. I only tried the other way after reading comments on here. The OTHER way is easier... But not better.

You are not alone buddy. I too tested this theory of not cleaning. My groups and SD’s got bigger with an unclean barrel (always cleaned the chamber to make sure no carbon ring was forming). I tracked everything up to 1800 rounds. Shot a xmatch with just over 1500 rounds on it and had my lowest finish in over a year (91% of Match winner). Cleaned it and the consistency came right back and haven’t lost a match since. What I’m getting at here is I went the extra mile in testing and even sacrificed my finish to verify what the data was telling me.

At each match I run 50 rounds before I check my zero and velocity. Clean after every match put it away for when it’s time to go win the next.

Everyone should go find their own truths. What works for me may not work for everyone. So if you want to perform at the highest levels you better know YOUR system as those at that level do. Hopefully this helps people understand that they really need to go out and do the tests themselves.

 

[J_D]

You are laughing but proving the point.

It doesn't. You can't break in a rimfire like a centerfire......for all the reasons explained.

Which is why we season a barrel.

You are a little slow on the uptake but getting there.

Did you watch the video of my CZ and 3 shots and then one hole groups direct from the lathe? I bet you didn't because it'll disprove your opinion.

You brought up the centerfire comparison.......it has nothing to do with a rimfire barrel. End that discussion.

The sport has been around for decades......there isn't a single right way of doing anything. Opinions are subjective.

My only problem with you is you, is with your attitude. General discourse and experience are why most people are here to learn and discuss, which can be done with civility.

It's possible to share info, without being a condescending prick........you should look into that.

 

[Shayne Ward]

You are not alone buddy. I too tested this theory of not cleaning. My groups and SD’s got bigger with an unclean barrel (always cleaned the chamber to make sure no carbon ring was forming). I tracked everything up to 1800 rounds. Shot a xmatch with just over 1500 rounds on it and had my lowest finish in over a year (91% of Match winner). Cleaned it and the consistency came right back and haven’t lost a match since. What I’m getting at here is I went the extra mile in testing and even sacrificed my finish to verify what the data was telling me.

At each match I run 50 rounds before I check my zero and velocity. Clean after every match put it away for when it’s time to go win the next.

Everyone should go find their own truths. What works for me may not work for everyone. So if you want to perform at the highest levels you better know YOUR system as those at that level do. Hopefully this helps people understand that they really need to go out and do the tests themselves.

Everyone that I know that has truly tested it both ways prefers the clean method. It’s the only way to keep it consistent.

 

[iceng]

You are not alone buddy. I too tested this theory of not cleaning. My groups and SD’s got bigger with an unclean barrel (always cleaned the chamber to make sure no carbon ring was forming). I tracked everything up to 1800 rounds. Shot a xmatch with just over 1500 rounds on it and had my lowest finish in over a year (91% of Match winner). Cleaned it and the consistency came right back and haven’t lost a match since. What I’m getting at here is I went the extra mile in testing and even sacrificed my finish to verify what the data was telling me.

At each match I run 50 rounds before I check my zero and velocity. Clean after every match put it away for when it’s time to go win the next.

Everyone should go find their own truths. What works for me may not work for everyone. So if you want to perform at the highest levels you better know YOUR system as those at that level do. Hopefully this helps people understand that they really need to go out and do the tests themselves.

Thanks for sharing. Ive run both clean and dirty, and found (for me personally) i DONT get any better accuracy, and i went 1700 rounds on one barrel. I will add that ES/SD did tighten up conciderably, however my 100m zero was solid. Down range, yes, it would translate to potential misses, but its good to hear someone else tried it.
Im not a shooter who can exploit the accuracy of a full clean system.

 

[Shayne Ward]

I apologize for this guy letting me get out of character and off topic. I will just do as others have told me and ignore his ignorance. Arguing with certain types is a never winning battle.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Hey douche bag… The top centerfire PRS, NRL and F Class shooters in the world clean to bare metal before and after every match. Why wouldn’t they just leave that special seasoning in their barrels?

.

A CENTERFIRE RIFLE BREAKS IN ALLOWING YOU TO SHOOT A CLEAN GUN ACCURATELY AS THE INCLUSIONS AND BURRS ARE SMOOTHED OUT.

A RIMFIRE DOES NOT CREATE ENOUGH HEAT OR PRESSURE TO DO THIS WITH TYPICAL SUBSONIC LOADS.

YOU DON'T NEED TO SEASON A CENTERFIRE, BECAUSE YOU CAN BREAK IT IN.

Apparently you need things spelled out in caps..if you still aren't picking up what we are putting down maybe I can draw you a picture.

I'm not saying an unseasoned barrel cannot shoot well. What I'm saying is you need to clean them frequently and can have ES/SD swings higher than you want. Season them properly ( using same bullet or manufacture so the lube/lead is the same) and you will end up with a gun that shoots tighter and doesnt need to be cleaned hardly at all. Half the reason to shoot rimfire is less time and effort compared to centerfire matches.

 

[J_D]

Hey dumb fuck.

A CENTERFIRE RIFLE BREAKS IN ALLOWING YOU TO SHOOT A CLEAN GUN ACCURATLEY AS THE INCLUSIONS AND BURRS ARE SMOOTHED OUT.

A RIMFIRE DOES NOT CREATE ENOUGH HEAT OR PRESSURE TO DO THIS WITH TYPICAL SUBSONIC LOADS.

YOU DONT NEED TO SEASON A CENTERFIRE, BECUAESE YOU CAN BREAK IT IN.

Apparently you need things spelled out in caps..if you still arent picking up what we are putting down maybe I can draw you a picture.

I'm not saying an unseasoned barrel cannot shoot well. What I'm saying is you need to clean them frequently and can have ES/SD swings higher than you want. Season them properly ( using same bullet or manufacture so the lube/lead is the same) and you will end up with a gun that shoots tighter and doesnt need to be cleaned as well.

Once again.....civility isn't your strong point. I would bet dollars to donuts, your attitude is tied to your penis size ratio to IQ.......my money is on both being the smaller side.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Once again.....civility isn't your strong point. I would bet dollars to donuts, your attitude is tied to your penis size ratio to IQ.......my money is on both being the smaller side.

Thinking about my dick or are you just projecting? Maybe both.

This debate has run its course.

 

[J_D]

Yes it has. It was a decent discussion until you joined.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Yes it has. It was a decent discussion until you joined.

 

[Boatninja]

Aaand another good discussion on SH descends into a name calling dick discussion.

 

[68hoyt]

Justin amateur,
I was going to reference your test but decided I didn’t want to internet argue , thanks for jumping in , if y’all will look for his test it was interesting , there are so many things we know , think we know , or , don’t know , soooooo y’all do a test to compare to the Justin amateur test then we will have more comparative data

 

[justin amateur]

I'm still tracking barrel wear Hoyt.
The Teslong usb scope captures the images for comparison.
First thousand shots documented, another 150 and I'll be capturing the 2000 shot images.
Also going to attempt a lubed bullet/no lube bullet comparison.
Removing the lubricant was a problem, not many solvents remove beeswax, paraffin or tallow.
Find out if accuracy is affected by the lack of lubricants on the bullets.
Waiting for a no wind morning to do so.

 

[usafa77]

Dont forget, ignore is your friend. I've missed most of the bs in this thread with it. Same people over and over.

 

[J_D]

I always forget that. Thanks, it'll be useful going forward.

 

[Fasteddie01]

Sachsmart - Does your borescope give you better pics than you posted? They look pretty fuzzy to me, maybe that's why you thought the brown stuff was brass. My Teslong has an adjustable mirror to get a good focus in various calibers. Hope the next re-assembly doesn't give you more probs. There might have been something that was a tiny bit 'off-torque' or whatever; now fixed.
It's too bad that this thread got hi-jacked by the battling experts. Hope they kiss and make up
I'd suggest you look up some more of justin's post, if you aren't aware of his projects. and jaia 's on other forums. A good bit of practical and verifiable info posted there.

 

[Gleedus]

Super interesting posts in here that have some value. Amid the yelling of an idiot that clearly dont know shit....
All I do is rimfire well not really true but thats where my heart is. To clean or not clean? What is clean? What is a true test? How many people who test this test it in a scientific manner?

I test a little bit here and there. My conclusion is it depends....
I'm in Canada and mostly run IBI barrels. 1-16, 1-12 I like Eley ammo the best and I dont clean my bores only chambers and first 1-3 inches of the bore. Why? Not because they shoot better groups as such but rather consistency over a 200+ round match. I have found that I have lower velocity SD with this method which I can show in group vertical at 200 yards. Small bunny trail here I have 2 different actions that I can swap barrels between. That barrel shoots the same at 50yds in both actions but the one action consistently has a bigger SD and always has a bigger group at 200 equal to the difference in velocity spreads. That bunny trail is to explain the why I care about SD more then a very slight difference at 50yds. Now pure group size at 50? Cleaning BR style is going to be best. I'm not sure if I would for 22lr 200,300 yd F-class but thats another topic...
Back to the "it depends" running other brands of ammo they dont all have the same results and some require more cleaning to stay consistent even for velocities.
I have found with all of my IBIs that a 800-1000 rounds was required to reach optimal precision regardless of cleaning used. After the first 1000 rounds I can do a stripped shiny clean very little effort and very nice groups. But velocity will increase with rounds fired as it refouls obviously.
Another "it depends" I got Lothar walther 1-10 this year to test and like usual I recorded to much stuff. What I expected to happen did and didnt happen. I got the velocity increase but SDs? This picture is first 1-500 rounds and 1300-1600

Hmm ok but look at the high ES on the 1-100 how about if we remove the first 10 shots as foulers because we started with a clean bore?

Totally changes the picture rounds 10-170 so easy a 1 day match are acceptable. For this barrel I would clean everyday 100%. As far as groups are concerned it shot so poorly at 50 yards (over 0.5") theres no way to tell if groups changes from first 100 to 1500 rounds. It shot okish at 200 but not a winner. Still more work to be done on that..

So whats right? Both have their place in my opinion. BR would not be served well by not cleaning. Probably no match type that you have opportunity to foul either. But something like PRS where its hit or miss and longer ranges where we get no foulers cold bore poi and velocity spreads become a bigger deal then a 1/8" at 50 yds. Having said that just maybe your barrel likes to be clean. Dont go by what someone wrote in a book or posted online. Dont even listen to me go and test for yourself. Get some real data on your rifle with your ammo.

If the more you know the less you know maybe the reverse is also true too...

Hey @Shayne Ward if you make it up to the nationals at MKM next year say Hi I normally got a yellow shirt on. We're you in squad 1 with Grant from up here? It was the first time us canadians could come down for the Nationals it was very interesting you got some "ok" shooters down there. I learnt alot!

 

[Shayne Ward]

Super interesting posts in here that have some value. Amid the yelling of an idiot that clearly dont know shit....
All I do is rimfire well not really true but thats where my heart is. To clean or not clean? What is clean? What is a true test? How many people who test this test it in a scientific manner?

I test a little bit here and there. My conclusion is it depends....
I'm in Canada and mostly run IBI barrels. 1-16, 1-12 I like Eley ammo the best and I dont clean my bores only chambers and first 1-3 inches of the bore. Why? Not because they shoot better groups as such but rather consistency over a 200+ round match. I have found that I have lower velocity SD with this method which I can show in group vertical at 200 yards. Small bunny trail here I have 2 different actions that I can swap barrels between. That barrel shoots the same at 50yds in both actions but the one action consistently has a bigger SD and always has a bigger group at 200 equal to the difference in velocity spreads. That bunny trail is to explain the why I care about SD more then a very slight difference at 50yds. Now pure group size at 50? Cleaning BR style is going to be best. I'm not sure if I would for 22lr 200,300 yd F-class but thats another topic...
Back to the "it depends" running other brands of ammo they dont all have the same results and some require more cleaning to stay consistent even for velocities.
I have found with all of my IBIs that a 800-1000 rounds was required to reach optimal precision regardless of cleaning used. After the first 1000 rounds I can do a stripped shiny clean very little effort and very nice groups. But velocity will increase with rounds fired as it refouls obviously.
Another "it depends" I got Lothar walther 1-10 this year to test and like usual I recorded to much stuff. What I expected to happen did and didnt happen. I got the velocity increase but SDs? This picture is first 1-500 rounds and 1300-1600
View attachment 8024055
Hmm ok but look at the high ES on the 1-100 how about if we remove the first 10 shots as foulers because we started with a clean bore?
View attachment 8024062
Totally changes the picture rounds 10-170 so easy a 1 day match are acceptable. For this barrel I would clean everyday 100%. As far as groups are concerned it shot so poorly at 50 yards (over 0.5") theres no way to tell if groups changes from first 100 to 1500 rounds. It shot okish at 200 but not a winner. Still more work to be done on that..

So whats right? Both have their place in my opinion. BR would not be served well by not cleaning. Probably no match type that you have opportunity to foul either. But something like PRS where its hit or miss and longer ranges where we get no foulers cold bore poi and velocity spreads become a bigger deal then a 1/8" at 50 yds. Having said that just maybe your barrel likes to be clean. Dont go by what someone wrote in a book or posted online. Dont even listen to me go and test for yourself. Get some real data on your rifle with your ammo.

If the more you know the less you know maybe the reverse is also true too...

Hey @Shayne Ward if you make it up to the nationals at MKM next year say Hi I normally got a yellow shirt on. We're you in squad 1 with Grant from up here? It was the first time us canadians could come down for the Nationals it was very interesting you got some "ok" shooters down there. I learnt alot!

No sir I was I believe tied for 9th going in but my last name had me bumped to 1st shooter in squad 2. Was kinda bummed about it but my squad was an absolute blast to shoot with. I shot strong all year to blow it all at the nationals but I had a blast
I am planning to make the trip to MKM I will come say hi and even clean your barrel for you

 

[Gleedus]

No sir I was I believe tied for 9th going in but my last name had me bumped to 1st shooter in squad 2. Was kinda bummed about it but my squad was an absolute blast to shoot with. I shot strong all year to blow it all at the nationals but I had a blast
I am planning to make the trip to MKM I will come say hi and even clean your barrel for you

Thats what its about! If your not having fun....

You'd have shot with Matt then. I blew the regional so was way way down the charts 68th I think. Had no chance at anything and almost didnt go but decided to do the drive and shoot for the experience. Biggest match I've ever been too so it was good for me to go. I dont like crowds at all I like to hide so it was almost to much. But I did have fun and got to know a couple more guys. I beat you by a few on your home turf Sooo maybe you dont clean my barrel Im #7371

 

[Shayne Ward]

Thats what its about! If your not having fun....

You'd have shot with Matt then. I blew the regional so was way way down the charts 68th I think. Had no chance at anything and almost didnt go but decided to do the drive and shoot for the experience. Biggest match I've ever been too so it was good for me to go. I dont like crowds at all I like to hide so it was almost to much. But I did have fun and got to know a couple more guys. I beat you by a few on your home turf Sooo maybe you dont clean my barrel Im #7371

This was my first year of any type of competitive shooting. Definitely kinda burned myself out towards the end but still had a blast hanging out and cutting up with the guys. Yes I did shoot with Matt. I knew who he was from his videos so that was kinda cool. I made several mistakes the first day but was still easily in the running. Day 2 I shot really strong all day but couldn’t catch a break on the wind. Several stages in a row there was no wind hold. It was 5:45-6:15 about 5-6mph. Send one hit middle send the next hit right side. Send the next off the left That range is tough. I shot several club matches there throughout the year. Won a few and got smashed on a few also. The wind there is very deceiving. One of the few places I have shot that the wind flag at the shooter can be right to left and mirage 100 yards away going left to right lol. Good shooting and glad you came down man. See you in Oct