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Rifle Scopes Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

C

CCCP2k

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Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 30, 2011
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I think S&B cheated here: (7-5)/5*100 = 40%. I would call it 7-25. The reason is that from 5x to approximately 7x the field of view remains the same. The sight picture just gets smaller towards to 5x.

Here is a video I shot
<span style="color: #3366FF">http://youtu.be/R3HjL7ueZgY</span>

Disclaimer: I am no pro or even close to it. Shooting is my hobby, not a profession. This video is not an advice or anything else. It's just a product of my boredom.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Why did not they stop at 7x? Does anybody see any use of smaller magnification with same field of view?</span> </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">!!! FOR THOSE WHO WANTS TO SPARE SOME TIME READING THE ANSWER IS HERE: Study the phrase "exit pupil" and look up the multiple advantages of a larger size, when needed. Advantages that may not be apparent unless used with auxiliary equipment. Not all users have the limited requirements that you(or I) do. (by Hellbender)</span>

Another thing I figured out lately which may help to avoid such "surprises" if you do not have a chance to look through the scope before buying one. You can use scope specs to roughly estimate amount of tunneling:
1. Take high magnification and divide by low (e. g. for S&B in question: 25 / 5 = 5)
2. Take field of view on low magnification and divide by FOV on high (5.3 / 1.5 = 3.5)
3. Compare the numbers. They should be close. For this scope FOV ratio is 3.5. Now if we substitute 5 with 7 in step one (7 is where the tunneling becomes apparent) we get 25/7 = 3.57 which is very close to FOV ratio (inverse of cause)

Not impressed? See NF NSX 3.5-15x50 as an example:
15/3.5 = 4.28
8.4/2.2 = 3.81

S&B 3-20x50:
20/3 = 6.67
13/2.1 = 6.19

From calculations above I would say that S&B 5-25 is 3.5x scope, NF NSX 3.5-15 is 3.8x and S&B 3-20x50 is 6.19x scope in terms of magnification range without loosing field of view.
 
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Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Do a search. Topic has been beat to death here about the tunneling from 5-7x. Most all who actually use the optic find it a non issue and just something to argue about on the Internet.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do a search. Topic has been beat to death here about the tunneling from 5-7x. Most all who actually use the optic find it a non issue and just something to argue about on the Internet. </div></div>
Hi Rob, here we are again :)

I am not saying tunneling is an issue. I am asking about lower magnification with same field of view. What's the point of it?
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

beating-a-dead-horse.gif
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

I'm sure 5-25x is referring to magnification not field of view? So no cheating

This is one of the Best scopes ever made I don't know why this tunneling effect keeps getting brought up!!

Does anyone ever use this scope bellow 10x anyway? Mine have not been Bellow 15x in years!! Just saying
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

You don't like it then don't get the scope. It is what it is. You get 5x so the scope is a 5-25x. No one cheated. That's the bottom line. Plenty of scopes. Buy something else.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kruger21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure 5-25x is referring to magnification not field of view? So no cheating

This is one of the Best scopes ever made I don't know why this tunneling effect keeps getting brought up!!

Does anyone ever use this scope bellow 10x anyway? Mine have not been Bellow 15x in years!! Just saying </div></div>

If you think about it, it's quite apparent. Why do you need lower magnification at all? To get larger field of view. Now, you see 5-25 on the scope. Wow, this quite a range of available options. But in fact your field of view at 5x is the same as 7x. Why would anyone go to 5x when he has 7x with same field of view? Beats me. Why is this a "cheating"? Simple. Competitors have 8, or 7.5 as lower for the same or similar upper. You see 5x. Wow, but effectively it's the same 7. Or I miss something here. If so, please explain.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't like it then don't get the scope. It is what it is. You get 5x so the scope is a 5-25x. No one cheated. That's the bottom line. Plenty of scopes. Buy something else. </div></div>

Rhetoric again. We have been through it already and I believe we resolved our differences. Now Rob, please answer technical/tactical question.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunderstorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
beating-a-dead-horse.gif
</div></div>

I removed tunneling out of discussion. This is NOT an issue.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Use the search. It's been discussed to death and obviously with you so why bring it up again? What axe do you have to grind?

There is no rhetoric in my post. Simple answer. You don't like it, buy another scope.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Now, when you made me thinking about it, I came to a funny idea. We can make a law suit against them :)
It's like Japanese car horsepower or better: hybrid fuel economy. On papers Toyota or Honda gives you such an impressive number but reality gives you total different story. I see parallel here. 5x works like 7x. Even worse. You see things smaller.
(7-5)/5 * 100 = 40% of cheating. Period.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you think about it, it's quite apparent. Why do you need lower magnification at all? To get larger field of view. </div></div>

No, i use lower mag for close targets, not field of view.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use the search. It's been discussed to death and obviously with you so why bring it up again? What axe do you have to grind?

There is no rhetoric in my post. Simple answer. You don't like it, buy another scope. </div></div>

No axes. All buried long ago and rusted to powder:) As far as the search concerned, could you kindly point me where to look at? Trust me, I like the scope, it works and that what matters at the end. But how can they do it to us? Do they think we are all stupid?

And the question again. Why do you need 5x when you have 7x with same field of view? Please answer if you know.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Fng, and others, please don't feed the troll. He doesn't care what anyone writes. He types to amuse himself. He will get bored stiring the shit and go away eventually or will do something to make himself go away.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fng please don't feed the troll. He doesn't care what anyone writes. He types to amuse himself. He will get bored stiring the shit and go away eventually or will do something to make himself go away. </div></div>
Oh, man. You got it all wrong. What I need is a tactical answer. 5x vs 7x same field of view. Which one to choose?
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

I shot with one today. Great eye box, clarity and brightness. That is saying something with my eyes.

R
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, i use lower mag for close targets, not field of view. </div></div>

Well, close targets are hard to find when you are zoomed in because of smaller field of view. It's much easier to hit bigger target when you got it in your cross-hairs.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot with one today. Great eye box, clarity and brightness. That is saying something with my eyes.

R </div></div>
No questions about it. The glass is amazing.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

The reason I am bitching is that I paid few extra $$ to get lower magnification. Now I see it's useless until proven otherwise.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Just to make Rob a little bit less tense...

Nice thing you will find in S&B PM II 5x25 56 (wee will give it 5 as a credit for now :) is the ability to focus at 10 meters with highest magnification. For field use it's not practical but it gives you exceptional opportunity for training. You can dry-fire with it in your basement and see your hold the way you see it while firing at long range!!!

My NF NSX 3.5x15 50 was able to focus on the same distance only at 5x :-(
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Until this thread I've never even noticed this. But now that I'm aware of this problem I'll address it by going back to not noticing.
grin.gif
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until this thread I've never even noticed this. But now that I'm aware of this problem I'll address it by going back to not noticing.
grin.gif
</div></div>

Good positive thinking. There are folks out there including me who are very anal when it comes to shooting. In reality anal approach sometimes hurts. So by ignoring the fact you do not lose a lot in this case. The thing works well anyway :)
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I am bitching is that I paid few extra $$ to get lower magnification.</div></div>

Extra $$ compared to what??

What should you have spent your $$ on??
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

[ In reality anal approach sometimes hurts. [/quote]

That says it all right there!!
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kruger21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I am bitching is that I paid few extra $$ to get lower magnification.</div></div>

Extra $$ compared to what??

What should you have spent your $$ on?? </div></div>

NF or Loopy. I even dropped idea to get Hensoldt (same price range) for that matter. The idea to get a flexible scope is quite attractive. I wounder how their 3-20 scope looks like. Have anybody seen 3 on those?
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kruger21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[ In reality anal approach sometimes hurts. </div></div>

That says it all right there!!

[/quote]

Anal or not, the fact of cheating is still there
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good positive thinking. There are folks out there including me who are very anal when it comes to shooting. In reality anal approach sometimes hurts. So by ignoring the fact you do not lose a lot in this case. The thing works well anyway :) </div></div>

I'm as anal as they come I just don't see a negative here. For competition shooting I never need to run it that low, and for any type of real world situation...if you're engaging targets close range with a precision rig you're likely in a state of "Uh-Oh" that a precision won't cure.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good positive thinking. There are folks out there including me who are very anal when it comes to shooting. In reality anal approach sometimes hurts. So by ignoring the fact you do not lose a lot in this case. The thing works well anyway :) </div></div>

I'm as anal as they come I just don't see a negative here. For competition shooting I never need to run it that low, and for any type of real world situation...if you're engaging targets close range with a precision rig you're likely in a state of "Uh-Oh" that a precision won't cure. </div></div>

True, with precision rig you can not do very much if you need go lower than 8 to dispatch your target. But we are anal, remember? We beg for opportunity to spend more for any advantage even if it's highly theoretical. Here comes S&B. We will give you 5 on your long range rig. You are thinking, maybe I can get away with it. Ops, your rig is downgraded to 7 with smaller sight picture. Again, it's all theoretical. In practice 7 or 5 will not make that much difference. It's just an ethical problem. Why would they do something like that? I find it very insulting. Actually, in my humble opinion, with this marketing trick they screwed otherwise fine scope. Now if you crank your magnification all the way down then you get worse than the scope can actually give - 7x!!!!
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why would they do something like that? I find it very insulting </div></div>

I can only assume they're trying to trick us out of our lunch money
wink.gif
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why would they do something like that? I find it very insulting </div></div>

I can only assume they're trying to trick us out of our lunch money
wink.gif
</div></div>

This is my point. Other than that it's a remarkable device. As long as you know its tweaks and cheats :)
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, if anal hurts, just start lubing, 'aight? </div></div>
I am sorry, I am Russian and my vocabulary does not include "lubing" word. We are talking scopes here so let us keep the conversation on the topic.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, if anal hurts, just start lubing, 'aight? </div></div>
I am sorry, I am Russian and my vocabulary does not include "lubing" word. We are talking scopes here so let us keep the conversation on the topic. </div></div>

Then don't ask stupid questions. Have you ever tried engaging a man sized target from within 70 yards? That does happen sometimes even with a long range rig. Even the difference between 5x and 7x is enough to hamper or help a shot regardless of the FOV. No one is trying to "trick" you except, perhaps, your imaginary enemies at S&B.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Please, everyone, let this thread die and don't respond to anything CCCP2K posts.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Here is a little story how the "issue" or not discovered.

I was planning to make a 1088m shot in the woods. We do not have too many long range opportunities in Ontario. I found a good candidate relatively close to the place I live. The only problem was that I had to shoot across a narrow opening between the cliffs. I was worried that if I miscalculated the shot the bullet could drift and catch the side of the cliff causing undesirable ricochet. I had to crank down the magnification to get full field of view of the opening. To my surprise I got the same picture in terms of visible distance at 5x to 7x. In my case it worked out. I got mill readings at 19. Still annoying. Isn't it?
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajwcotton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
notthisshit_zps387b282a.png
</div></div>

Please clarify. I'm new here so please point me to the answer why? Is it as old as the man on the picture? :)
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halcyon612</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please, everyone, let this thread die and don't respond to anything CCCP2K posts. </div></div>

It will die for sure like everything. But if somebody answers the question then it will die sooner :)
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

This in not the first thread you have started on this issue. I assume you did not like the response you got the first time around leave it alond and quit being a troll.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajwcotton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This in not the first thread you have started on this issue. I assume you did not like the response you got the first time around leave it alond and quit being a troll. </div></div>

You are probably confusing me with somebody else. I was discussing shadowing effect in S&B and the folks around here sorted me out. I agreed and the issue is closed. This is totally separate, rather moral than technical issue.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajwcotton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4ll5_zpse3b76a36.jpg
</div></div>
Here we go. What about my hard earned pennies? :-(

Do we close the thread?

What about Honda hybrids? Will we let them cheat customers?
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

On a separate note,
When you get your S&B make sure your replace Butler Creak lens cover with something more appropriate. This plastic sh... broke on me on the second trip. I was careless to stuff the rifle into Eberelestock G2M backpack. Personally, I like these condoms you find on Trijicon ACOGs or NF rubber covers.

The turrets did better job. None of them clicked.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

I already gave you an answer. Just because you don't have see the need doesn't mean someone else doesn't. All you're doing is making silly assumptions.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I already gave you an answer. Just because you don't have see the need doesn't mean someone else doesn't. All you're doing is making silly assumptions. </div></div>

Sorry man. I have no idea what question are you answering. Again, why would you dial 5x if 7x gives you the same field of view? Simple like that. "Engaging something when your are doing something" will not work here. We need explanation and advice which works. Do you imply you are more likely to hit your target if it looks smaller to you? It does not make any sense to me. Bigger is better. More real estate in your sight picture - this what you really want at closer distance. I think it's so basic so nobody would ever discuss it.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Ill feed the "troll" just to get all you dicks worked up. I find it pretty entertaining. CCCP2K I like your persistence here.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

Maybe you should send your scope back. Just to amuse myself I pulled my rifle out to confirm your claim. Picking a screw on a hinge approximately 25 ft from the scope I dialed down to 5x and then up to 7x. The screw became easier to see at 7x and I could see less of the perimeter around it as I dialed up. My magnification increased and field of view shrank, exactly the way it was supposed to.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you should send your scope back. Just to amuse myself I pulled my rifle out to confirm your claim. Picking a screw on a hinge approximately 25 ft from the scope I dialed down to 5x and then up to 7x. The screw became easier to see at 7x and I could see less of the perimeter around it as I dialed up. My magnification increased and field of view shrank, exactly the way it was supposed to. </div></div>

Now we are talking. Can anybody else verify the same behavior?
Again, for the test to be proper it's very important to see shrinking of the visible area while going from 5x to 7x. You should see reverse when going from 7 to 5 (area should become bigger)

The problem we have here in Canada that you can not go to a store and check out this kind of stuff before buying. I have not seen any S&B on my range. People buy less expensive stuff, mostly hunting scopes. We have to order them and wait for several months before scope arrives. I did not want to bug S&B with this. I have already complained about shadowing which turned out to be deliberate trade-off rather than defect. So I decided to ask the community first.
 
Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 0425440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ill feed the "troll" just to get all you dicks worked up. I find it pretty entertaining. CCCP2K I like your persistence here. </div></div>

I must confess that despite my original technical concern I also find all this very entertaining. I am sure that together we will dig out the answer.
 
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